America, War, and the Myths We Still Believe (#321)
3 Takeaways™
Historian Robert Kagan challenges the prevailing myth that the United States is a reactive power that only intervenes when forced. He argues
Key takeaways
- The United States has historically been an expansionist power territorially, commercially, and ideologically.
- American interventions often result in 'half-finished' commitments, such as long-term presences in Korea and Germany.
Main topics
- American expansionism vs. isolationism
- Unintended consequences of foreign intervention
Notable quotes
The United States has been an expansionist power since the very beginning.
Conclusion
Kagan warns that the American-led world order is fracturing and calls
Transcript preview
Speaker 2 (0:01) What if Americans are wrong about America? We think America spent much of its history minding its own business and only got involved when the world forced us to. What if almost the opposite is true? Speaker 2 (0:18) Hi, everyone. I'm Lynn Thoman, and this is Three Takeaways. On Three Takeaways, I talk with some of the world's best thinkers, business leaders, writers, politicians, newsmakers, and scientists. Each episode ends with three key takeaways to help us understand the world and maybe even ourselves a little better. Speaker 2 (0:40) Today, I'm delighted to be with Robert Kagan. Bob is one of America's leading historians, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, and the author of Dangerous Nation and the Ghost at the Feast. He spent decades studying America's role in the world and challenging the story Americans tell about ourselves. Bob, welcome to Three Takeaways. Speaker 1 (1:04) Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Speaker 2 (1:06) It is my pleasure. Bob, what is the biggest myth Americans believe about America's role in the world? Speaker 1 (1:15) That Americans think that for the most part, they're just sitting here minding their own business. And then other countries come along and do things that either attack the United States in some way or upset it. And then Americans have to respond. when the reality, I think, as you suggested, is much different. The United States has been an expansionist power since the very beginning. In fact, since before even the revolution, it's been expansionist territorially, commercially, and I would say in this vague sense, ideologically, in the sense that it has always shown some concern for the fate of fellow human beings on many different fronts. Speaker 2 (1:52) Cuba, the Philippines, Nicaragua, Haiti, Korea. Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and now Venezuela and Iran. And that's not even the full list. Why has America intervened so often and in so many parts of the world? Speaker 1 (2:10) Well, I think if you compare the United States to... other really great global powers in history, Great Britain, for instance, you would not think that the United States was intervening more frequently than they tend to do. When a nation becomes very powerful, it often uses power to achieve those goals. And I think the United States has been no different in that regard. Certainly, some of the wars were portrayed as being defensive, but they weren't all defensive. They all were in service to one or another American interest or of beliefs that have often gotten Americans involved in other countries. Speaker 2 (2:47) America often goes in thinking we can fix a problem and then leave. Why do we keep underestimating how hard that is? Speaker 1 (2:56) Well, it's partly because, and this is the way the United States is different from, say, the British Empire. When the British moved into some region of the world, they moved in for good. Whereas the Americans, even though America sometimes behaves like an empire, they have a very anti-imperial approach to the world. And they never think they're staying. Every time the United States goes in to, as you say, try to solve a problem or address a crisis or et cetera, the assumption is that we'll go in and take care of that and get out right away. And often that has turned out not to be true. We have never left Korea. Obviously, we've never really pulled troops out of Germany and Japan. And so what you see is a record of sort of half-attempted, half-finished interventions. Speaker 2 (3:42) Sometimes America's actions have consequences that we don't expect. How often has America helped create the very threats that we later had to fight? Speaker 1 (3:54) Every conflict which may solve whatever problem that conflict was designed to solve and opens up new problems. I mean, just consider World War II. I don't think most people in America would doubt that World War II was the right war to fight. But one of the consequences of World War II was the division of Europe and the imprisonment of the Eastern European countries under Soviet rule. And so every solution to one problem leads to other problems. So we're continually shocked that conflict continues to emerge, including by our own actions. I think Americans would do better to understand that the world is sort of inherently a more tragic place and that unless the United States becomes truly isolationist, there's not going to be any escaping the kinds of conflicts that Americans have found themselves involved in. Speaker 2 (4:40) Can you give some specific examples of consequences that America did not expect after it intervened? Speaker 1 (4:49) One obvious example is the first Persian Gulf War when George H.W. Bush sent troops of the United States to drive Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait after he'd invaded it. And then the United States left a substantial number of troops in place to defend Saudi Arabia and to continue to provide some defense against Saddam Hussein. And of course, the presence of American troops in the region