Ballet with Megan Burbank

You're Wrong About

In this episode of 'You're Wrong About,' adult dance correspondent Megan Burbank challenges common misconceptions about ballet, sharing her p

Key takeaways

• Ballet originated as a courtly activity for men in 16th-17th century France, not exclusively for women.
• The idealized image of the ballerina is a modern construct; ballet has historically been inclusive across gender and class.

Main topics

• History of ballet from French court origins
• Evolution of the ballerina ideal

Notable quotes

"You can start any time. It's not true." – Megan Burbank on age barriers in ballet.

Conclusion

Ballet is far more than a rigid, elite art form—it's an inclusive practice

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) I mean, what's better than making a man dance himself to death, I ask you? Speaker 1 (0:16) Welcome to You're Wrong About, where sometimes we're wrong about ballet, and we are wrong about it with Megan Burbank. Megan? Hello! How are you doing? Speaker 2 (0:27) I'm so good. I'm so happy to be here talking about ballet with you. You Speaker 1 (0:31) are so good. Your journey with ballet is something that I'm excited to also talk about, and I certainly hope that you're planning on sharing that as part of our... our story, but how are you doing this summer? Speaker 2 (0:46) I'm good. I've been having a very hot ballet summer. I went to an intensive in Florida, Speaker 1 (0:53) which Speaker 2 (0:54) I don't know. I don't know that I recommend Florida, but I did have a good time. Speaker 1 (0:58) Florida is a mixed bag. Speaker 2 (1:00) It really is. Although the humidity is great for the joints, I got to say. If you're wondering about that. Great Speaker 1 (1:07) for ballet. Yeah, Speaker 2 (1:08) it actually is. That's like the secret. So I went to a dance intensive and I performed a classical ballet variation on point in a very sparkly tutu. And so, you know, we're feeling good about ballet right now. How Speaker 1 (1:25) did that feel? Speaker 2 (1:27) Amazing. Speaker 1 (1:27) Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 2 (1:29) It's like it was really hard. And. It takes a ton of preparation. So I had I knew I was going to this intensive in July and most intensives, if there is a performance component, you usually have to learn the choreography at the intensive, Speaker 1 (1:47) which Speaker 2 (1:48) is really bad for pretty much anyone who began ballet as an adult or if you have any kind of neurodivergence or if you have a brain like mine that just doesn't pick up choreography quickly. Yeah, Speaker 1 (1:59) I'm like that. Don't you love it in movies where they're like, do the combination and then they do it and you're like, what? Yeah, Speaker 2 (2:05) I can't do that, especially if it's new to me, choreography. It's like I either get it immediately or I'm like, I would like three months to work on this one step. It's like one or the other. So this was really cool because it was like you were invited to prepare a solo. Speaker 1 (2:23) I also let's stress for a second, by the way, for people who don't know, you're a grown up. I'm an adult. This is my hobby. Speaker 2 (2:31) This is what I do when I'm not doing my actual job. Speaker 1 (2:34) Yeah, it's just for fun. But I bet a lot of people are like, well, I'm too old to dance. It's not Speaker 2 (2:39) true. I Speaker 1 (2:40) disagree Speaker 2 (2:40) with Speaker 1 (2:40) that. It's not Speaker 2 (2:41) true. You can start any time. This Speaker 1 (2:43) will be a big theme. This Speaker 2 (2:45) is one thing many people are wrong about. And it's like it's kind of the ballet world's fault that people have that impression. Because if you go to see ballet, you will see a bunch of like very thin. 24 year olds. They're Speaker 1 (2:59) famous for being mean to people. Speaker 2 (3:01) Yeah. Some of that's warranted. Some of it's not. But yeah, I started ballet as a grown up. And so I was going to this intensive and you could prepare a solo and people did all kinds of things. Like I have a friend who who worked with someone to choreograph a totally new piece, which is really cool. But I was like, I want to do a classical ballet variation. which is sort of an insane thing to do because a classical ballet variation is typically like a solo from a larger story ballet. And they're typically performed on point. So I learned this piece that was like only a minute and 30 seconds, but it's a lot of like balances and jumping and PK turns. And you do it in a beautiful tutu on point and it's really hard. It was scary to learn because it was just like a lot in terms of like loading my body. But then when I was able to perform it, it felt amazing. It's a really amazing feeling when you are out there and you are doing this scary thing and you're like, I can't believe I'm doing this. Like it took me years to get to the point to be able to do anything even close to this. And then, you know, you hit your little two footed balance and you feel like you can stay up there forever. And it's a really. It's a really special feeling. And I think it's one that I wish more people could have if they're interested in it. Speaker 1 (4:25) Yeah. Do you think adults generally need more moments like that? Speaker 2 (4:31) Yes, I do think that. When you're a grown-up and you have a job and you have other responsibilities, I think you can start to feel really stagnant and sort of like you're no longer evolving or changing. And I think what's really special about doing something like ballet is that it takes you out of your normal context. So like for me, I started ballet like right around the time I turned 30 was when I started going to classes. And it was really important for me because I'm a journalist. I cover a famously depressing topic that we have talked about on this show before. And when I go to ballet class, because it's such a... It's both like physically intense on your body. Like you're thinking about all of these different things at once, like your foot placement, your alignment, like even just like the tips of your fingers, like where those guys are going. And then you're also like, you're thinking about the counts, the music, you're trying to remember the combination. It's this, it's this thing that I think is really helpful because it's like. You really can't think of anything else for 90 minutes when you're in that class. You Speaker 1 (5:45) know, I think Stevie Nicks said something very similar about ballet. She Speaker 2 (5:49) did do ballet. Yeah, she did it for fun. You know, she's wearing pointe shoes on the cover of Rumors, which I think Speaker 1 (5:57) not Speaker 2 (5:57) enough people appreciate. Speaker 1 (5:59) Yeah, well, there's so much to appreciate about Stevie Nicks. You know, that could be like a good 12 hour episode. Speaker 2 (6:06) So true. You should do a two hour episode on Stevie Nicks. You know, I Speaker 1 (6:12) believe that some people out there would like a like 12 hour episode to kind of fall asleep to. That would be fun to try to do. Speaker 2 (6:20) I agree. But Speaker 1 (6:22) so tell me, how are we wrong about ballet? And what kind of a journey are we going on? And will it involve sitting in a little creaky velvet seat? Well, there is an orchestra and then people go and peer down at the orchestra at intermission as if they're seals. Speaker 2 (6:39) Yes. You mean like when we went to see Giselle in Portland? Yeah. Speaker 1 (6:43) Yeah. Speaker 2 (6:44) That's a big part of ballet. Sitting in a creaky seat. Speaker 1 (6:48) Incredible. OK, what are we wrong about? Speaker 2 (6:51) Well, let's just start from the beginning. So I'm going to I'm going to give you a little history of ballet. It's a long journey. This is a very ancient art form. But we will start in the, I would say, around the 16th, 17th century. So that's when something resembling ballet starts to emerge. And actually, if anyone listening is interested in a real comprehensive history of ballet, I really recommend this book, Apollo's Angels by Jennifer Homans, who was a professional dancer and then became a writer and has done a lot of really excellent writing about dance and the history of dance. Anyway, so ballet begins in the 16th, 17th century. It's a French courtly art. So it's something that all the fancy people in the French court are doing. But not all of them. It's mostly men. So we think of ballet today as being something that's like all about the cult of the ballerina. But it really starts out as this like fancy pants hobby for like little fancy guys at French court. Speaker 2 (7:58) I rewatched Marie Antoinette recently, and there's like a segment of Marie Antoinette that goes into her like cosplaying as a peasant in Petit Trianon. And then also like she has a show she puts on and it kind of this is kind of the mood of early ballet. It's like people who live in the French court who have a lot of time on their hands are learning this. like special art form, but it looks really different from ballet today. The technique is really different. The positions are somewhat similar, but it's not as extreme. So there are a number of foot and arm positions in ballet, and I'm not going to go over all of them because we don't have like a million hours, but they get their origin in this period of dance, but they're not as extreme. Like today, the ideal for standing in first position with your feet turned out. is 180 degrees, which like pretty much no one actually has 180 degree turnout, but that's the ideal. Speaker 1 (8:55) And if you had it, wouldn't you just flop right over? I have to wonder. Speaker 2 (9:00) Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of hypermobile people who take ballet and it's actually like, it's great to be bendy. Like it looks good, but it often comes with its own like practical Speaker 1 (9:12) problems to have that kind of body. Yeah. Speaker 2 (9:14) So we've got these guys who are standing. in first position, their turnout is closer to 90 Speaker 1 (9:20) degrees, which is like, I think a more comfortable standing position. And Speaker 2 (9:24) they're doing these little fancy steps where they go up on their toes, but they're not even going up to what would today would be considered a demi point, which is like when you go up and put all of your weight on the ball of your foot. Speaker 1 (9:40) Okay. It's Speaker 2 (9:41) like between that and having your foot flat on the ground. So it's like. A little tiny rise of the heel. Speaker 1 (9:48) Who are these fancy guys? Do they have titles? What do they do for a living? Are they fancy for a living? Speaker 2 (9:54) Oh, it's like the king. Like Louis XIV. Oh, Speaker 1 (9:58) little fancy king guys. Okay. Yeah, Speaker 2 (10:01) little fancy king guys. So yeah, so they have their little heels up just slightly. They're doing these little fancy walks. And then they have like a little fancy arm flourish. And that's like the dance. Speaker 1 (10:12) Oh, this is very Hilarion Blackadder coded, don't you think? Yeah, Speaker 2 (10:17) totally. That is the vibe. And it's interesting because it's like, if you look at a dancer doing this, and there's a really great YouTube series from the Royal Ballet, where you can actually see someone. like performing these steps. Speaker 1 (10:31) Fabulous. It's Speaker 2 (10:32) really great. It's like an educational lecture where they have dancers come in from the company and perform different types of ballet throughout ballet history. You see, so you see this, you see someone perform these steps and they don't really look like anything, but that is, this is where ballet begins. This is like where it all starts in there. And this is what evolves into like what we see today on stage. Speaker 1 (10:52) Which is now this like pretty superhuman thing. I think it's fair to say. Yes. And like a thing that is sort of weird that it's not in the Olympics where you're like figure skating, Olympics, sport. Yes. Ballet, not sport, art. And you're like, where is the line between sport and art? They both end in a art. Speaker 2 (11:13) It's very tricky. It's very confusing. Speaker 1 (11:16) Spohart. Speaker 2 (11:18) And I do consider ballet a sport, but I also will say, like, if you talk to people in the ballet world, they will have all kinds of crazy opinions about that. And they'll be like, no, it's not a sport. Don't call it a sport. It's an aesthetic art. And I'm just like, I don't know. I get real sweaty doing ballet. It feels a lot like a sport to me. Speaker 1 (11:37) Right. But Speaker 2 (11:38) it doesn't start that way, right? We've got these little fancy guys like the Sun King. And there's actually like this really funny picture of Louis XIV doing ballet dressed up as Apollo. And he has this like amazing like pronged headpiece. And it's it's really wild. So they were getting up to some really, some really interesting dance stuff. And women were involved in ballet at that time, but they couldn't do as much with it because they were wearing these like enormous dresses. So you couldn't see their legs. If you're a little French prince and you're wearing, you know, your little like shorts and tights, you can actually see the articulation of the leg and the foot. And so that's what it looks like early on. And it's not as athletic, although I did watch, I've seen the Royal Ballet's video on this and it does, the coordination of the arm and the leg does look really hard to me. So this is not a kind of dance I personally would want to do. And so this goes on. until the French Revolution. Which Speaker 1 (12:42) would set ballet back a little bit, I guess. Speaker 2 (12:45) Yeah, it upsets the structure of ballet significantly because it's, you know, it's a courtly art. It's something that these fancy princes and kings are doing in their copious free time. Speaker 1 (12:56) It's not liberté, égalité, fraternité, ballet. No, no. Speaker 2 (13:02) So what's interesting about that is that after the French Revolution disrupts ballet, Men are no longer the stars of ballet, right? Because we don't like kings. Speaker 1 (13:14) Zut alors. We Speaker 2 (13:15) hate kings and we don't want to watch. Speaker 1 (13:18) But we like queens a little bit. Speaker 2 (13:20) Well, we still hate queens, but who do we like? We like ballerinas. We like going to the opera and we like seeing ballerinas. And so it's interesting because it goes from something that's this like rarefied aristocratic art form. to something that is performed by people in the lower classes. And you see this in France. Speaker 1 (13:40) That's really cool. Yeah, you Speaker 2 (13:42) see it in Russia as well. During this time, there's also a significant overlap between ballet and sex work. So a lot of ballet dancers are sex workers and vice versa. And it's maybe not formalized, but it's like, I don't know. I think there is a strong connection there. But Speaker 1 (14:00) what's interesting about this is that because... Speaker 2 (14:02) we have toppled our king and we hate royalty. This kind of opens the door for the idea of the ballerina to grow as a concept. And women start to become stars of this art form. Speaker 1 (14:15) Yeah. And do they have pretty dresses with jewels on them? They Speaker 2 (14:19) sure do, Sarah. Speaker 1 (14:21) That's so important. Speaker 2 (14:22) It is so important. And this leads us to... The first ballerinas, the first really famous ballerinas, which include dancers like Marie Taglioni, who was she's often described as the first ballerina to go on point. I don't think that's true. I think she just kind of popularized it and Speaker 1 (14:41) she Speaker 2 (14:41) was really good at it. So she had these little shoes. She would go up on point in them and. What's interesting about her shoes is like, and like, we can go deep on the ballet nerd stuff with me. So if I'm, if I'm getting too into the weeds, feel free to be like, that's enough now. You Speaker 1 (14:59) know, I love weeds. I want to know what exactly for anyone who doesn't know. And I think I know, but I probably have some misconceptions. That's the point of the show. What exactly going up on point is and you know, why it is as impressive as it is. Speaker 2 (15:16) Yeah. So. Point work is considered this really special part of ballet. Speaker 1 (15:22) And Speaker 2 (15:23) you have to get to a point in your body where your feet and your ankles are really prepared for it to even try it. So for anyone who starts their ballet journey, whether you're like six years old or 35, finding out that you're ready for point is really exciting. It's like an exciting moment. in your ballet journey. And it's like, some people really want to go on point. Some people are like, I don't really care about point. And you can definitely have a, have a perfectly good time dancing and never do point work. It's absolutely not a requirement. And it's kind of a risky behavior when you think about it to go on point. Um, but yeah, so let's talk about the mechanics of point. So yeah, Speaker 1 (16:07) a Speaker 2 (16:07) point shoe is, is a very rigid shoe that is designed so that you're on your toes in the shoe. So it has something called a shank, which is this very hard sort of sole of the shoe. It's not quite the sole of the shoe, but that's how I would describe it. And then it has this really thick box that your foot goes into or your toes go into. And the combination of your ankle and foot strength and flexibility with the mechanics of the shoe make it so that you can pop up. and just balance only on your toes, essentially. And people always think that there's wood in the shoes or there's like a brick in the shoe or there's something in the shoe that makes it that stiff and rigid and, you know, kind of like a tool of torture. But actually, it's just made out of essentially like paper mache material and satin. Speaker 1 (17:03) That's got a bow on top. And it's got a bow on top. It's very shiny. Speaker 2 (17:08) So that's how it works is you just, you do a million exercises to strengthen your toes and your ankles and the little teeny tiny muscles in your feet. And then once you do that, you can manipulate this like really rigid shoe so that you can go up and you can balance on your toes. Speaker 1 (17:27) I do point work. I love point work. Speaker 2 (17:30) I think it's really fun. It's also something that can be dangerous if you do it too early or without correct supervision. Like I get really stressed out when I see people buying pointe shoes on Amazon and just like playing with them. Because if you put them on without the correct alignment or technique, you actually you can do some damage. I mean, and I've even been in classes where people have fallen off a pointe and had. had a bad time. So it is something to be careful of, but it is French Speaker 1 (17:57) fry when you should have pizza, you're going to have a bad time. Speaker 2 (18:01) Yes. It's much like that. Well, Speaker 1 (18:03) does it hurt to do it? Speaker 2 (18:05) You know what? My toxic trait is I don't think it hurts. Speaker 2 (18:13) It's not a popular opinion to share in ballet class. I don't think it hurts. I think if you're in the wrong shoe, it hurts. Speaker 1 (18:20) Okay. But Speaker 2 (18:21) I have done point for, for a couple of years and it hurt at first, but it hurt because I