The Most Important Date Of The Second World War

WW2 Pod: We Have Ways of Making You Talk

Hosts Al Murray and James Holland engage in a 'war waffle' session exploring the historical significance of September 17th across different years of

Key takeaways

• September 17, 1939, is highlighted as a critical date due to the Soviet invasion of Poland following the non-aggression pact.
• The Anglo-Soviet invasion of Iran in 1941 was driven by the need to secure a supply corridor to the USSR and remove German influence.

Main topics

• Significance of September 17th
• Soviet invasion of Poland

Notable quotes

The most consequential day is the day when the Soviets, the Soviets, they set their thing in motion that results in Barbarossa.

Conclusion

A dense, conversational exploration of how specific dates and technica

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:02) Thank you for listening to We Have Ways of Making You Talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com slash wehaveways. Speaker 1 (0:33) Achtung, Achtung! Welcome to We Have Ways of Making You Talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland. Your second World War podcast of choice. Episode 1000 and I don't know. I mean, that thousand episode milestone, James. 14, 14. Seems quite a while ago now. Anyway, thanks for listening, everybody. Thanks for sticking with us into our second millennium. Now, this is a war waffle. episode now for those of you who've joined us recently what a war waffle episode normally is is we talk about kind of what we've been reading or we look at what was going on in across the six years of what people call the second world war though because you know the the the window's been thrown far wider open by recent scholarship but Speaker 2 (1:15) you know if you're john if you're johnny finnell then you you call it the um it's a second world it's still the second world war but but it's it's slightly bigger than six years yeah it's uh was he 31 to 49 Speaker 1 (1:25) 39, 31, 49. Six times, Speaker 2 (1:27) three times longer. Speaker 1 (1:30) Just in case people thought we were running out of stuff to talk about. But we talk about what we've been reading, what we've got in front of us. We chew the cud and we have a chat, which is, let's face it, it's where it all began. This is what's on my desk. A magazine of the life and times of Leslie Thomas Jock Greer. 18th July 1919 to 14th December 1957. He was in 151 Parachute Battalion. So the Indian Parachute Battalion then became 156. And went to Arnhem and he went to Stalag 11b and afterwards and all this stuff, which funnily enough ties in with, I've just been to the Edinburgh Fringe and there was someone there who'd found her great-grandfather's war diary or his diary, just his diary, and had done a little play about Operation Market Garden, which is the 17th of September, Jim, which is when this episode's going out now. Although... I know if you're a regular listener, you're pretty tired of hearing this from, hearing about this movie. So I wanted to actually say, James, that the 17th of September in the Second World War, I think has the most consequential event happen on it, the 17th, but it's not in 1944. It's in 1940. No, it's 1939. Speaker 1 (2:49) It's the Soviets rolling into Poland without declaring war. I Speaker 2 (2:53) thought you were going to say the day that Hitler calls off Operation Sea Line. Speaker 1 (2:57) No, no, no, no, no. Because there'd be no Operation Sea Line to call off. Because the non-aggression pact is one thing, right? But the Soviets then actually actively following up on it and invading Poland. OK, so you're not just saying 1st of September would be dumb of it. No, I'm saying... 17th September. I mean, the most consequential day of the whole Second World War is the day it begins. No, no, no, no. No, no, no, no. The most consequential day is the day when the Soviets, the Soviets, they set their thing in motion that results in Barbarossa. You know, Hitler feels they're breathing down his neck, doesn't he? By the middle of night, by the turn of... 40 into 41. And this is the start of that process with the Soviets invading Poland and then laying out exactly what people have got in store, you know, what they've got in store for them when they show up. You know, they call it co-belligerence. I mean, they're allies, right? You've got the Soviets take the eastern half. And, you know, we had that. We read a family story the other day. I don't know if it would have been out by the time, which was about. a Polish fellow who decided, you know, the Soviets show up and the Soviets say we're here to liberate. And you think, well, we don't fancy your liberation. Thanks very much. So they escape on that great big loop through Iraq and Transjordan and Palestine and back all the way back. Yeah, Speaker 2 (4:23) yeah, yeah. You know, no. And Speaker 1 (4:24) cook. Yeah. I think this is the day. This 17th September 1939. And he's also, for those who go, well, you know, there's a non-aggression pact, but it's not an alliance. It's the Soviets, like, just trying to stay out of it. Horseshit. They're absolutely up to their necks in it and are an ally of the Germans. No two ways about it. Otherwise, why are you dividing up a country for yourselves and slicing it up? Just Speaker 2 (4:51) ask Speaker 1 (4:52) yourself Speaker 2 (4:52) this. Later on in the Blitz, who's providing the fuel for the Luftwaffe? Can I tell you something funny? Yeah, go on. So 17th of September is also my parents' wedding anniversary. Speaker 3 (5:01) And Speaker 2 (5:02) a few years ago, I remember saying to them, isn't it amazing that you were married on the same day that the Soviets invaded Poland, that Hitler decided to call off sea lion and our brave men landed in Arnhem. And I have to say, my mother, who has been incredibly supportive of my career and all that I do, wasn't that impressed. Speaker 2 (5:32) But I have to say, that is how I think in terms of dates. Yeah, of Speaker 1 (5:36) course. Speaker 2 (5:36) I mean, it's why, you know, I would never, ever forget your birthday. Yeah, I know. Obviously, it's the day that Churchill became prime minister and the day that the Germans invaded the Low Countries. I mean, the only thing that happened on me was on my birthday was Cherbourg fell. Oh, well, you see. Speaker 1 (5:52) That's not bad. I mean, you know, as they go. It's not up there in the roster. Speaker 1 (5:59) I mean... Speaker 2 (6:00) You know, the 10th of May is definitely a top 10, isn't it? What do you think are the top 10 dates of the entire war? Obviously, 17th of September is one. Speaker 1 (6:09) 10th of May. I think... May... 27th of May. 27th Speaker 2 (6:17) of Speaker 1 (6:17) May. Okay, 27th of May. Speaker 2 (6:19) And Speaker 1 (6:19) May the Speaker 2 (6:20) 8th. The day that Churchill transfers Halifax. Speaker 1 (6:23) Yeah. I think it's May. 6th of June. 6th of June, yeah. Yeah, yeah, of course. We've managed to leave that out. I think this is a thing on the patron. People should offer their top 10 dates of the Speaker 2 (6:35) Second World War. Their top 10 Speaker 1 (6:36) dates. Speaker 2 (6:37) And if you have a birthday on that date, you have to let us know. But Speaker 1 (6:40) what's good about the 17th Speaker 2 (6:41) of Speaker 1 (6:41) September is it's got this trifecta. So it is. It's the Soviet invasion of Poland. It's a banger, isn't it? It's the end of sea lion. It's market garden. You know, it's like... So are there any other dates that achieve the trifecta? It's Speaker 2 (6:58) the Speaker 1 (6:58) Anglo Speaker 2 (6:58) -Soviet invasion of Iran finishes. Speaker 1 (7:00) Yeah! Yeah! Which no one talks about. And isn't it actually, I mean, if you want some forgotten war, forgotten war, there's your forgotten war. Us cooperating with the Soviets to invade Iran and carve it up and control it. I mean, and that all goes, that all proceeds very nicely. Everyone gets along absolutely cheerily. So there you go, co-belligerence. I mean, the Soviets will do it with anyone. Anyone they find convenient, right? Speaker 2 (7:34) The Day of Infamy's got to be up there, hasn't it? December? Yeah. Speaker 1 (7:38) Yeah. Yeah, I think so. World War II dates, top trumps. This is very good. This is very good. Top trumps. Fear Speaker 2 (7:47) factor. Fear factor. Significance. Consequence. So what are your top trumps? So on a date, what are you doing? Potency. Fear factor. You've got to have fear factor. You've got to have fear factor. I remember top trumps, horror figures. And there was, the fear factor was, I think Godzilla was right up there. And Dracula was 10, obviously. But there was some really bad magician or something. And he got one. It's like, oh no, I'm going to be a magician. Speaker 1 (8:25) But Speaker 2 (8:25) fear factor. So you have fear factor. Then what else would you have? You'd Speaker 1 (8:29) have... Surprise! Right? You have to be surprised, isn't there? Because like Pearl Harbor would get 10 for surprise. Speaker 2 (8:37) Multifariousness. But D-Day would only get surprised if you're German. Speaker 2 (8:50) I never do. So when you have it in brackets, you have different... So you have to announce whether you're Axis or Allied before you play. So you can have one in one column and then another one in brackets. The brackets one is for if you're a wereaboo. This Speaker 1 (9:09) is not the worst idea I've ever heard. Speaker 2 (9:11) But then multifariousness, if that's... Such a word. So 17th of September gets high because it's like lots of things happened on 7th. Whereas 10th of May, I Speaker 1 (9:19) think it's just 10th of May, isn't it? It's just the 10th of May. Yeah, it doesn't really rack anything else up. Just Speaker 2 (9:25) 10th of May, 1940. You know, other years, forget it. It's not, you know. Speaker 1 (9:31) Yes, multiplicity. Something like that. Yeah. The thing is, though, I mean, when we were doing our Phony Wars series, though, because this is worth talking about. We were doing our Phony Wars series. I think one of the things that was interesting was that the naval war, like, is underway. isn't it? And so 17th September, this is when Courageous is sunk. An aircraft carrier, which is, I think, that's quite a blow for the enemy to strike so early in the war, isn't it? You know, 500 crew lost, sunk by U-29. The Speaker 2 (10:02) multiplicity factor, it's got to be a nine for 17th September, hasn't it? I think it has. I think it absolutely has to. Speaker 1 (10:09) Yeah, yeah. I mean, I got sent this book. about the loss of Royal Navy capital ships, which was fairly bendy on what it meant about capital ships, right? Speaker 2 (10:19) Is there another debate on ship nomenclature to be had? Speaker 1 (10:23) Well, basically, it should have just said big. It should have just said big on the title, and then you're like, then you're home and dry, right? Or Panzerschiffer. But basically, what it was, was a book about the Hood, actually, but with supporting chapters. It's been disparagingly reviewed, but... What I found very stimulating about it, right? It got right into the hood and the lucky shot and all that. But one of the points it made, regardless of whether this is the salient point in it all, one of the points it made that I thought was really interesting is just the sheer wear and tear on those big ships. You know, if they're steaming at 30 knots for a couple of days, the just wear and tear. You know, metal fatigue is a new science. Around about the beginning of the First World War, they start thinking about metal fatigue, start trying to work out, you know, how do you calculate the metal fatigue? And one of the things, you know, the Hood was known as a wet ship. You know, her quarter deck would often be underwater if she was steaming hard. Because once she'd been refit to sort of maximum weight, maximum guns and tonnage and everything, she very often would have sea coming over the... quarter deck and just the stress and strain on the on the ship and then on her drive shafts and then on her gearboxes and