Episode 71 - What YOUR work says about YOU and LIFE (w/ Jordan Coons)

Woodworking is B******T!

In this episode of 'Woodworking is Bullshit!', host Paul Jasper welcomes ceramicist Jordan Koons to explore how handmade objects reflect dee

Key takeaways

• Artistic creation is not just technical but deeply symbolic of internal and external selfhood.
• Negative space in ceramics represents vulnerability—a necessary component for authentic human connection.

Main topics

• Metaphor of double-walled vessels in ceramics
• Vulnerability as essential to human connection

Notable quotes

"Each of my pieces represents a unique being with an ornately carved and decorative exterior that mirrors the diverse ways in which we adorn our own bodies."

Conclusion

Jordan Koons' work reveals that art is more than form—it's an intimate

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) The average human life is 692,000 hours, and you just chose to spend this one hour with us, and we're glad you did. Speaker 1 (0:24) Yeah, I did that. I reminded you of your mortality. And that's what we do on this show. We talk about why we do things, not how we do things. This is Woodworking is Bullshit. I'm your host, Paul Jasper, scientist by day, woodworker by night. And I got my boy in the chair, Eric Curtis, fine furniture maker and experienced Spanish teacher. Speaker 2 (0:45) ¿Dónde está la biblioteca, motherfucker? Now, Paul, I got a question for you, buddy. Please. One, 6,942. 692,000 hours. 692. What's the percentage? Give me like quick. You're a PhD. Speaker 1 (1:05) Do the math. Oh, well, it's like just over one out of half. You know, that's just over half a million. You know, three quarters of a million. Not how many Speaker 2 (1:14) fucking hours is it? How many is one out of 692 Speaker 1 (1:17) ,000 Speaker 2 (1:18) hours? Speaker 1 (1:19) Well, one. Speaker 1 (1:21) 500,000th-ish. Best not. Speaker 2 (1:24) What was that PhD for? Speaker 1 (1:27) Oh, you mean like point, it would be .000... Yeah, how many zeros? Five. Yeah, five Speaker 2 (1:35) and some. Six zeros would be a million. You're saying that very confidently, so I'm going to trust you. Well, Speaker 1 (1:40) dude, metric prefixes. A million is 10 to the 6. Don't you metric me. A billion is 10 to the 9. Who doesn't know that? We're being very rude. Can you introduce our guest? Sorry, Eric. We had to bicker Speaker 2 (1:53) right now. You just fucked up the intro Speaker 1 (1:55) completely. We're only a minute in. We're only two minutes in, and it's like, what chaos? God damn it. Okay. I forgot we even had a guest just for that one minute. I'm Speaker 4 (2:06) just Speaker 1 (2:06) sitting here Speaker 4 (2:06) on the side like, Speaker 1 (2:07) okay. Eric's forcing me to think through my metric prefixes, and I'm like, Jesus Speaker 2 (2:11) Christ, how many shows is that? I Speaker 1 (2:11) just wanted you to show your work. Speaker 2 (2:13) We Speaker 1 (2:14) have on the show someone. who we wanted to have on for a while. Our first ceramicist we have on the show with us, Jordan Koons of Jordan Koons Ceramic, artist, educator, and alchemist, as it were. Jordan, welcome to the show. Speaker 4 (2:31) Thank you so much, guys. I'm happy to be here. Speaker 1 (2:34) Thanks so much for Speaker 2 (2:35) being here, and I'm sorry that you had to see Mommy and Daddy fight right off the jump. Speaker 4 (2:40) Verdict's still out on who's Mommy and who's Daddy, but... Maybe I'll decide by the after show. Speaker 2 (2:46) Let's be real. It was mommy and zaddy, you know? Don't call me a Speaker 1 (2:52) zaddy, you bitch. You really do give Speaker 4 (2:56) daddy energy, though. Yeah, I'm here for that. Big Speaker 1 (2:59) zaddy. I kind of like it. Stop it, you guys. I'm trying to be serious. I feel like Jordan and I are going to get along just fine. Speaker 1 (3:12) I'm in trouble this episode. I know it. So Jordan, you know, I was drawn to Jordan magnetically when I heard a reel that she posted on Instagram. And the reason is that Jordan's a fantastic potter. You got a Jordan Coons ceramics. Did I get that right, Jordan? Speaker 4 (3:31) Got it. Speaker 1 (3:32) On Instagram. And I was drawn to it because, of course, Jordan is drawing tons of inspiration from classical. design and architecture from Europe, albeit like ornate cast iron railings or Gothic cathedrals. And I think many of you know, I've been exploring Gothic cathedral art in my own work. And so of course there was that. But then the first real I saw of Jordan's was a philosophical statement, a manifesto, her own personal manifesto about what her work means to her and why she thinks it's important. So we decided to use Jordan. your personal ethos and philosophical manifesto as a way to explore three different ideas in this episode. And I would like to start with the first in Jordan's own words. Speaker 3 (4:22) I am captivated by the metaphor of the body as a vessel. Each of my pieces represents a unique being with an ornately carved and decorative exterior that mirrors the diverse ways in which we adorn our own bodies. Beyond its exterior beauty, however, each vessel also serves as a window into the inner self. Speaker 1 (4:44) So Jordan, before I muck it up, why don't you tell us what that means to you and why you said those words? Speaker 4 (4:54) Man. So when I got into making double walled pieces, which I know we're doing audio, but it's hard to talk about making art and describing it. I mean, it's nice that you have your YouTube videos, right? But like, can I like, I'll show some things as well. Hopefully people will go to the YouTube video. Yeah, go Speaker 2 (5:14) to the Patreon, man. Get this. Get this live. Or the Patreon, Speaker 4 (5:17) yeah. Oh, you guys have Patreon. Oh, wow. I don't even know what I'm working with here. Speaker 1 (5:22) Do your best to describe it as well, please. Speaker 4 (5:24) So, yes. So I will throw my pieces and I throw two separate vessels that are then adjoined, usually at the top. So this one is, I can't really show, but it's a free floating. The interior vessel is free floating. And really, when I started doing this, we're going to get real, real and real honest for a second. Go ahead. Speaker 1 (5:45) Yeah, go ahead. Speaker 4 (5:46) What about the blaze? Speaker 1 (5:49) No, no, nothing about glaze. Please get real honest for a sec. Oh, you Speaker 4 (5:52) said please. Sorry. Speaker 4 (5:55) I got into doing this because of my own ego of I just wanted to prove that I could do really difficult things and show off how good I was, which is I don't think enough people talk about that whole direction of I want to do a thing because I want to show that I'm the best of the best and I want to be able to prove something. And the more I got doing that, I am a teacher. And I work with humans. And as I would carve the exterior and reveal the interior, I started reflecting on this is no different than when I'm working with my students or I'm just working with humans. And maybe you have someone who's a little bit difficult and you have to kind of take some time with them and chip away at the surface and give them space. to feel safe, to start to reveal themselves. And the more I started... working with these thoughts as I was carving the work. And then also, I mean, we'll get into this, but like clay and ceramics is like a fucking fickle medium and it hands your ass to you all the time. So the more I was doing these designs that were challenging and structurally compromising to my work, then I would have these moments where Speaker 4 (7:28) As I'm revealing the interior and thinking about this, I'm also flocking up my pieces and having to start over and thinking about just how these vessels are reflections of human nature. So that's like the start of it. We're going to get way more into it. There's so many more layers to this, but that's kind of like what got my brain going down that road. Does that make sense? So Speaker 1 (7:52) absolutely, it makes sense. So just for those not in the pottery world. Jordan's talking about like a cup or a mug that has two walls separated by space. And she's carving the outer wall, leaving the inner wall intact to hold fluid or coffee or whatever. And there's space between. So it's like, Jordan, your mugs are beautiful. They have these ornately carved exteriors, like almost like a two-tiered pierced. thing, which I have seen. I was going to say Speaker 2 (8:26) like it, it, it, for the woodworkers among us or the woodturners among us, it's like a pierced vessel, but then there also is this interior component so that it's functional cup, functional bowl, whatever Speaker 1 (8:37) it is. And Jordan's relating that as a metaphor to humans that we have, we put out these exteriors, like who we project. Speaker 1 (8:47) pretenses, facades, walls, barriers, who we, or that's somewhat a negative view. We could also project our exuberance and our excitement and our creativity, right? Whether it's tattoos or the clothes we wear or how we do our hair. Like it doesn't, I don't mean to cast that as a negative way. We exude what we exude and we cover what we cover. And it's very strategic for many of us. And then there's the inner person. Or Speaker 4 (9:16) even if Speaker 1 (9:16) we're in Speaker 4 (9:16) certain situations where we know this is not a group of people who I can be my authentic self. So I'm going to mask or I'm going to put on a certain facade or whatever. So yeah, there's lots to it. Speaker 1 (9:34) And then there's the inner human, right? And I know that this will come to your second point about getting to know the inner human, which is. more vulnerability. Let's table that for a moment. But it's really the exterior, what we project versus who we are inside, exterior vessel versus interior vessel. Eric, have you ever, I've never thought of my work in those terms. And it's forcing me to reevaluate. Have you ever thought of your work like that? Speaker 2 (10:02) Well, I mean, I think of my work as a reflection of my experience as a human being often. And it's a vehicle to express. something that I'm trying to articulate that I think is both unique to me and universal so in some ways yes but it's the Jordan I don't use a lot of ornamentation I'm more form I'm more like trying to play with like the the whispers and like the the subtle nudges you know and I think like this thing of ornamentation, like how we... intentionally expose ourselves to the exterior world that in certain circumstances, maybe our true selves and in other circumstances is a manufactured self. Like that's, do you have tattoos? Like this is such a, there's so many layers to this. I'm Speaker 4 (10:59) like, should I like reveal? Like, yeah. Well, so that's Speaker 2 (11:05) the first like very, very clear parallel is like, you know, you can, you can. tattoo things on your body, messages, symbols, things that you feel represent who you are as a human being. And they are an outward reflection to the world as to what you think, feel, believe. But at least I know for me, and I'd be curious to hear if this is the same for you. And I know this isn't the same for a lot of folks. The tattoos that I have, like there's large chunks of time between. each of the tattoos and they all like, I know that I will continue to get more, but not until I find the next thing that feels like the appropriate statement to be made. Sure. You know, I, a Speaker 4 (11:53) lot of my tattoos are chapters of my life, um, or they signify chapters or people or relationships or. Speaker 4 (12:04) yeah places that i've been um i do a lot of traveling and a lot of times when i'm in a certain city or country i'll try to pop in and get a tattoo somewhere um yeah and are Speaker 2 (12:16) they are they directly representative of that that time or is it is it something that like on its face value may be one thing, but you know, when you tell the story, it reveals that it has these other layers to it. Like what's, or in, in, again, I'm not saying it has to be that. I know a lot of people who are just like, I don't know. It's a fucking, like it's a, it's a lady on a sword. Like, I don't know what the fuck it means. It just, I got it while I was in Italy, you know? Speaker 4 (12:43) Right, right, right. Yeah. No, more or less, more or less. Uh, it really depends. I was just having this conversation with someone like earlier today about, you know, they don't have any tattoos. And I was like, what's stopping you? And they were saying that it's just like, I don't even know where to begin. Or, you know, I've got all these ideas. I'm like, just start. Speaker 1 (13:03) Just Speaker 4 (13:04) commit to Speaker 2 (13:05) the bit. Just do your thing, man. Once Speaker 4 (13:07) you get on me, you won't stop. Paul, do you have any tattoos? Speaker 1 (13:11) Zero. Speaker 2 (13:13) He's afraid to Speaker 1 (13:14) commit to the bit. No, it's not. Well, maybe I am afraid. I don't know. I was just about to answer. I can't identify anything that I know I wouldn't regret, but maybe that's not the point. Speaker 4 (13:29) That's also a voice. May I guess, Eric, are you also a millennial? I am, yeah. Yeah, okay. Jordan, Speaker 1 (13:39) I am Gen X. Speaker 1 (13:44) Oh my Speaker 2 (13:45) God. And there's the Instagram clip for this episode. Speaker 1 (13:57) Oh, it's the worst. Got Speaker 2 (13:59) him, but... Nailed Speaker 1 (14:01) it. Eric, are you young and Paul, you're old as shit? Yeah, that's what I thought. Good. Sorry. Hey, buddy, my knee hurts today. You Speaker 2 (14:10) know, Speaker 4 (14:10) like, Speaker 1 (14:10) it's fine. Listen, Speaker 4 (14:12) I got the fellow grazed. I'm with you. My students are always with Speaker 1 (14:15) you. Speaker 2 (14:15) Jordan, what were you going to say about generation? I do think it's Speaker 4 (14:18) an Speaker 2 (14:18) age thing, yeah. Speaker 4 (14:19) Well, I feel like we're... I'll just, we can bring it back after this, but I feel like Gen Xers, you guys are, you guys are the middle child between millennials and boomers and you Gen Xers, we love you latchkey kids, but one of the things about you. Speaker 4 (14:36) I'm not wrong. Speaker 1 (14:38) You're not wrong. I need more whiskey for this episode. Jesus Christ. Speaker 4 (14:42) So I don't think you guys realized that I was going to like totally drag you through the cold. No, this is Speaker 2 (14:47) this is fucking perfect. Go on. I'm loving this. So Speaker 4 (14:50) you are you. Gen Xers are the middle child between mommy and daddy here. You were making the joke about mommy and daddy earlier, but. Millennials and boomers, we're at each other's throats. And you Gen Xers are like, please stop the fighting. But you're also, a lot of times when it's easier, you'll lean towards those boomer ideologies. So that voice that you just had of, I'm going to regret it. That's not your voice. That's not your voice. Speaker 2 (15:25) We got to get Sherry Speaker 1 (15:26) back on the horn to dissect Speaker 2 (15:28) this, man. Jordan, Speaker 1 (15:29) I need to think about that. Like, is that my voice as a scientist, as an analytical, like I'm very risk averse. I've been risk averse my whole life. But Speaker 2 (15:37) the Speaker 1 (15:37) thing is, you're not risk Speaker 2 (15:40) averse though. In your work Speaker 1 (15:41) and in Speaker 2 (15:42) your creative endeavors, you're not risk Speaker 1 (15:44) averse. Speaker 2 (15:45) Yes, all the time. And you love ornamentation and you try things and you get excited about things and you go for it. But there is, I wonder if there is Speaker 4 (15:53) a thing. Speaker 2 (15:54) Yeah. And you're not afraid to fuck something up. Like you'll see it through and you'll be like, ah, it was okay. And that's fine. That's not a reflection on me as a woodworker. Interesting. And I wonder if there is whatever the separation is between like, it doesn't continue to live on my person. Like that, that is a thing that I did, but it's not a thing that like I can hide it. Maybe. I don't know. Speaker 1 (16:17) Well, here I am. Like I've had a divorce. Right. So if you put the, like the, your wife's name. Yeah, like maybe not, right? So like, you know, you kind of think like the partner is never a good idea. And then it's like, the only thing I think is my child. Like that's forever. Like your child's like, you know, part of you forever. You never, anyway, anyway, no, no, sorry. That was really interesting. And I need to think about whether it's my voice or what I was learned from my parents' generation about being. Yeah, taking risks with the tattoos. And Speaker 4 (16:55) with that, I will say it was quite bold of me to say I don't know you and I'm not in your body. No, no, no. It Speaker 1 (17:01) was quite Speaker 4 (17:01) bold of me to say I'm not. But yeah. Jordan, this Speaker 1 (17:05) podcast is about being bold. And honestly, that's something I am looking forward to thinking about after the episode. This whole podcast is premised on the idea of taking on topics and questions that We go away from this discussion thinking, gee whiz, is that me? How does that relate to me? Like, and Speaker 2 (17:31) every Speaker 1 (17:32) time we have a guest on or we stumble on a topic that. I walk away thinking about for the rest of the week or the rest of the month. That is my favorite kind of episode. It's Eric's not a guy. I know. A thousand percent. I love it. I love things. Yeah. Because the longer you live, the, I guess maybe the less frequently your world is turned upside down. Cause you think, you know, you think you got it, you know, you know, yourself, you know, what's up. I've seen it before. Right. But. I love things getting turned on their head. Maybe I'm a disruptor. So you've kind of disrupted me without question. I never thought whether my views were my own or that in particular from my parents. But I want to come back to something you said, Speaker 4 (18:15) which Speaker 1 (18:17) was I did double-walled pottery because I wanted everyone to know I'm hot shit. Speaker 1 (18:25) because i Speaker 2 (18:26) put a Speaker 1 (18:27) big asterisk next to that one because i have a touch of that too okay we all do we all do Speaker 4 (18:33) we all do and that's what i was trying to say is like the the artists and creatives and crafts people out there who don't admit to that i kind of just like go like i don't know if i trust you because I feel like this is an inherent part. And then going back to that voice, I was just having this conversation with someone recently too about even that voice of being the best. Is that my voice or is that what patriarchal systems of like be like that everything that we all are competing against one another? And why isn't it just a system of collaboration and community? All right. Is that my voice? I don't know. I'm starting to question that too. Speaker 1 (19:14) Jordan, there's so many questions you are bringing up. Eric and I have five questions each right now. Go ahead. You go first. Go. Speaker 4 (19:22) Fire, fire, fire. Speaker 1 (19:23) No, go ahead. Go ahead. I had too many. I still am processing them. Jordan, when you flexed and did the double-walled pottery, did it give you the credibility you were seeking? Speaker 4 (19:36) No. Speaker 4 (19:38) because there are other people who are doing it out there as well. Yeah, but Speaker 1 (19:43) were you seen in the community as someone who has the skills to teach classes, to be an educator, who does what they're talking about? Speaker 4 (19:50) Not as fast as I wanted it to happen. I've been doing this for a decade now. I started my grad program, which I went to MICA, Maryland Institute College of Art, for my graduate program, which was in art education. And I graduated in 2017, and I... started really diving into this and splash out into the scene and started doing markets and whatever and was starting to build my Instagram and it's just like no one is noticing me and I was pissed I was just like I know that I'm good why isn't anyone seeing me it was very frustrating and only only in the last year do I feel like you know I had a goal of getting to like 10. 10,000, Speaker 3 (20:37) 10,000 followers on Instagram. And I'm finally there. Speaker 4 (20:41) Like I think in the next matter to all crest 15. And now I'm kind of at a place where, and here I'm laughing, talking to the both of you who have absurd numbers. And then it's also what are numbers? What is, what even is arbitrary thing? What is, what Speaker 2 (20:56) is, and Speaker 4 (20:57) again, whose voice is that? Speaker 2 (20:59) Well, can we, that's an interesting question and I want to keep thinking on that, but can we also reframe that a little bit? Sure, Speaker 4 (21:09) please, reframe it a little bit. Speaker 2 (21:10) The numbers don't necessarily matter, but the bigger the number, the more. opportunity for people to find you and support your work, which is ultimately the goal, right? So on the one hand, there's the ego. There's like the, well, I'm going to do it because I'm fucking better than them. And I'm going to prove everybody wrong, right? Like there's still, well, we've talked about this. The fuck Eugene is real, okay? Yeah, it's real. I Speaker 1 (21:36) stand by Speaker 2 (21:36) it. The fuck Speaker 1 (21:36) Eugene Speaker 2 (21:37) is real. And if I'm being completely honest, I think part of the reason why I'm drawn to do quieter form-based things. is because a thing, I think it was my sixth grade or seventh grade band teacher said to me, um, that like, wait, wait, wait, what Speaker 4 (21:54) instrument I Speaker 2 (21:55) started, I've played a bunch of different things, but I, uh, at that moment, I think I was playing French horn. Um, and we were going into a competition and I was like, you know, as like a seventh grader trying to be like, why don't we play like the fucking fastest thing that's ever been written? And he was like, anybody can play a fast thing. But if you go in and you play Mary Had a Little Lamb and you play it technically perfect, nobody can deny that you are better at what you do than playing the fastest thing sloppily. Speaker 4 (22:24) Okay. Subtlety is your, yeah. Sure, sure. Speaker 2 (22:27) And I think my aim in making quieter objects is like. Fuck you. I dare you to make a mitered cube better than me. Speaker 1 (22:35) Are you saying your work is similar Speaker 2 (22:39) to Marriott and Little Lamb? Sure, on a level. It's simple. It's simple. Speaker 4 (22:45) It's the old choice. Old choice, Eric. Okay. It is. Speaker 2 (22:48) Anyway, anyway, I'm just, I don't even remember what my original fucking question was. Well, Eric, I went on a rabbit trail. That's fine. You're down the rabbit hole Speaker 1 (22:56) and I'm going to pull you out because that's what I do. Eric, have you, did you, so