Saw

WHAT WENT WRONG

The hosts break down the making of the 2004 horror hit Saw, tracing how directors James Wan and Leigh Whannell went from broke Australian film

Key takeaways

• James Wan and Leigh Whannell spent years developing Saw in Australia before flying to LA with only $7,000 for a proof-of-concept short.
• Evolution Entertainment financed the film entirely out of pocket for just $1 million, giving the directors full creative control.

Main topics

• Low-budget filmmaking
• Saw (2004) production history

Notable quotes

"You have ten minutes to live. How are you going to spend those ten minutes?"

Conclusion

The episode highlights how retaining creative control and betting on oneself can

Transcript preview

Speaker 6 (0:00) You go 15 seconds back and then 30 ahead. You land mid-sentence so you're scratching your head. What went wrong and what can you do? Listen out free with just a click or two. We're head- Hey folks, and welcome back to another episode of What Went Wrong, your favorite podcast that, well, I think you know that part. We wanted to let you know that we are now offering bonus and ad-free episodes to all Patreon, Spotify, and Apple subscribers for only $5 a month. Well, that's less than going to one-third of a movie on a Wednesday afternoon down here in Los Angeles. Now, just so you know, because of technical limitations and the search with Apple, you Apple special Speaker 7 (0:40) features recipients may not see the ad-free episode Speaker 6 (0:42) until the afternoon. Speaker 6 (0:57) What went wrong and what can you do? Listen out free with just a click or two. Speaker 3 (1:26) Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to What Went Wrong, your favorite podcast full stop that just so happens to be about movies and how it's nearly impossible to make them, let alone a good one, let alone one that says, what if you took seven and dipped it in a little hot topic? I'm one of your hosts, Lizzie Bassett, here as always with Chris Winterbauer. And Chris, what are you sawing your leg off for today? Do Speaker 7 (1:51) you want to play a game? Do you want to play a game? I'm Speaker 3 (1:54) sorry. What if Speaker 7 (1:54) Seven was made by Dwight Schrute? Speaker 3 (1:57) When Jigsaw skittered out on the tricycle. Speaker 3 (2:05) Damon was like, that's creepy. And I didn't say anything because I was about to howl laughing. That's one of the funniest things I've ever seen. Anyway, what are we doing? Speaker 7 (2:13) We're talking Saw, which Lizzie, I'm not sure how well you remember adaptation, but this is literally the movie that Donald Kaufman writes in adaptation that his mother called Psychologically Taught. It's like the same thing, basically, including a puzzle piece as the clue. But Donald Kaufman was obviously onto something because we were talking about an extremely successful movie, an extremely successful franchise, and a movie that honestly very nearly didn't exist. It's kind of shocking that it got made and that it survived in the way that it did. And it's a perfect example of why I love this podcast, because as we'll get into with our thoughts, I have a lot of thoughts on this movie. And yet researching it, I just found myself cheering for everybody involved and cheering for this movie. And it's such an accomplishment. And so let's go to your thoughts, Lizzie, on Saw. Had you seen the movie before? What were your thoughts upon watching or re-watching it for the podcast? Speaker 3 (3:07) Okay, so I had only seen this movie one time. Sure. And it was on a laptop circa about 2003. Would that have been right? Came Speaker 7 (3:17) out in 2004. Speaker 3 (3:18) Okay, so it was 2004 then. It was a bootleg copy of Saw. I didn't buy it. I didn't do the illegal pirating. You wouldn't steal a car. But a friend of mine did. But you would steal Saw. I would steal Saw. A friend of mine did. And we were on a trip to New York City with the acting troupe that I was in. And one night when we were unsupervised, we decided to watch the worst quality rip of Saw possible. Which didn't do any favors to Carrie Elwes' makeup, which is inexplicably bad, even in normal quality, which I hope we get to at some point. But I remember watching this and I was so scared to watch it. And I didn't want to say that because I wanted to like seem cool enough to want to watch Saw. But all I remembered hearing was like, this is the scariest, most. fucked up movie you're ever gonna see. And I was so scared. And I remember like covering my eyes during so many parts of it and like barely being able to watch it. And so when we turned it on this time, I was excited because I was like, man, I haven't seen this in, you know, 20 plus years. And we turned it on. And I was expecting to have the same. I thought it was like, this is gonna be really scary. Like, I'm so excited. This is gonna be crazy. Nope. Speaker 3 (4:32) I'm not saying I didn't enjoy it. I actually did really enjoy it. But there is something so, I don't know if heightened is the right word. It's so stylized about this. Speaker 7 (4:41) Yes. It's very 2004. Speaker 3 (4:43) It's very Speaker 7 (4:44) 2004. It's an amazing time capsule of that moment visually. If Speaker 3 (4:49) only for Carrie Elwes's hair, which is very much like your aunt has had a roommate for 25 years and is obviously in a relationship with. Like, I don't know why they cut men's hair like this in the 2000s. He's a very handsome man. He does not look good in this movie. But I mean, all to say, did it scare me? No, it did not. Was it a super fun ride because I completely forgot the twist? Yes, which was great. That was really fun. I very much enjoyed it. It doesn't make a lot of sense at all. There's major leaps that you have to make, especially as you get into the back half of the movie with Danny Glover's character. and what is going on there. So is it a good movie? I don't know. Is it a fun movie? Yeah, absolutely. The one part of it that I actually did find quite hard to watch this time was the sequences with Monica Potter and the daughter. I actually really, those were very upsetting. You know, obviously it's like someone holding a gun to a kid's head. And I thought that the daughter and the mother both gave very believable performances in that. And that was upsetting. Also, what happened to Monica Potter? That's a different path we could go down, I guess. But I always really liked her. The second they show Ben from Lost drifting through the doorway, saying something creepy, it's like, well... Michael Speaker 7 (6:08) Emerson. Speaker 3 (6:10) He's obviously involved. Yeah. But yeah, I was both pleasantly surprised and a little let down in certain ways by this. I guess because I associate James Wan so closely with The Conjuring. And The Conjuring is, I think, a big leap forward in terms of both storytelling and also the way that the scares are constructed. But this was fun. I'm glad it exists. You know, I wanted to walk back into a hot topic and think about what wristbands I might like and what t-shirts would look really good with them. And maybe I want to get gauges in my ears. I don't know. Maybe I do. Last thing. When Adam is complaining about his girlfriend, it's so funny because he says something along the lines of like, my girlfriend is like a vegan punk, like bisexual or something. And he's like, and she said I was the angry one. It's like, yeah. Speaker 3 (7:05) And watching this in 2026 sounds like she was right. But I'm sure that got a big laugh at the time. Chris, what did you think? I Speaker 7 (7:12) had only seen this all the way through once. I watched it probably in 2005, realistically, because I saw it at home with my dad. I don't know why. It's one of those covers. Yes. If you guys are as old as we are in blockbuster or Hollywood video, it's a hand and a leg and there is a saw. And there were a lot of films like this, as we'll discuss, that were coming out around this time. And it's looked so grisly and so controversial. And so we rented it. And candidly, it's actually relatively tame by especially modern standards. Yes. That's, I think, what I was most Speaker 3 (7:42) surprised by, which I didn't mind. Speaker 7 (7:44) I agree. And James Wan has been adamant that he never set out to make a torture porn film, that this is not a torture porn film. I agree. I don't think it is. Certainly not by the standards that would be set by that genre later on with something like Hostel, for example. Yeah. I remember even at 15 or 16 thinking. okay, this, you know, this definitely isn't Seven. It's definitely not Fight Club or, you know, the sort of perhaps some of the touchstones that it's aspiring to. Even it takes obvious visual cues from The Ring with the way that everything's green in this movie, for example. But Speaker 3 (8:13) everything was green in the early 2000s. Everything was green in the early to mid 2000s, yeah. Speaker 7 (8:18) Like starting with The Matrix in 99 and then you continue with J-Horror with The Ring and then with this. Twilight. Twilight. Oh Speaker 6 (8:24) my Speaker 7 (8:24) God, Twilight. Twilight. Just dip it in Speaker 6 (8:26) turquoise. Speaker 7 (8:27) But I do remember thinking... I didn't think it was particularly scary, but I do remember thinking I thought it was very interestingly constructed. I really liked the twist. I thought it was like very punk rock in a fun way. And rewatching it, the way I kind of felt was that, oh, this is definitely a movie made by two young guys in their 20s. And I could totally see myself coming up with some of these plot machinations and horror turns, et cetera, in my 20s. What if the doctor is having an affair? What if this is the guy that's following him? Then he sticks the gun in his wife's face. You know what I mean? It's like real Speaker 3 (8:56) like, ah, yeah, yeah. Saw is, it's really a yes and. Yes. Just all the way through. There's no no buts. Nobody said no. Yeah. And so, Speaker 7 (9:06) like you said, what I love about this movie is that I just love that it exists because James Wan and Lee Whannell have become two of the biggest names in horror. Yes. And this is where they started. Not exactly where they started, as we'll learn, but it basically is where they started in terms of Hollywood. And when I tell you this story, I think you're going to appreciate this movie so much more because while some of the details and storytelling techniques, I think both these directors and Wanel the writer would admit feel perhaps a little sophomoric now that they're older and they've matured. It was such an accomplishment and such a difficult process. And when you say like, why was this inexplicably that way? Well, as we'll learn, it was probably explicably that way. We'll talk about why. But yes, it's very silly. As soon as the bug-eyed orderly shows up, you're like, well, he's probably coming back. You know, Mike Lamerson. He did it. Yeah. And it's like, does it make a ton of sense? No. No. But it's fun. It's a good ride. It Speaker 3 (9:59) is fun. Also, I have to say, I really enjoy Lee Whannell's performance in this. Speaker 7 (10:03) Yeah, he's actually, I think he's better than Cary Elwes. I Speaker 3 (10:07) agree. Yeah. At first, I didn't agree and I thought it was the opposite. But as the movie went on and I settled into the tone of it and what they were trying to do, Cary Elwes felt pretty incongruous with it. I agree. Also, God bless him. You're so British, sir. I know. Just let him be British. Yeah. Speaker 7 (10:21) What Speaker 3 (10:21) are you doing Speaker 7 (10:22) here? What are you doing here? I think part of that is 1L obviously wrote the dialogue, although 1L's Australian and he's hiding his accent, I think, decently Speaker 3 (10:30) well. Speaker 7 (10:31) And also, is he not a proto-Ezra Miller? Yes, Speaker 3 (10:34) he looks so much like them. Yeah, it's pretty remarkable. Speaker 7 (10:37) Okay, well, Lizzie, let's get into it because I think this one is really fun. We're diving into spooky season with this one. This is another entry into what I would call our sort of indie horror remains a viable path for outsiders. And you could include The Evil Dead in that. You could include The Blair Witch Project in that. So let's get into it. But first, the details. Saw is a 2004 psychological crime thriller horror film directed by James Wan, written by Lee Wannell, from a story by Wannell and James Wan. It stars Carrie Elwes as Dr. Lawrence Gordon, Lee Wannell as Adam Tobin Bell as Jigsaw, Danny Glover as Detective David Tapp. Michael Emerson as Zep Hindle, Shani Smith as Amanda, Ken Leung, and many, many more, as you mentioned, Monica Potter. Really, honestly, a really good cast considering the budget that they had. And we'll talk about that. I love Ken Leung. I love Ken Leung too. It was distributed by Lionsgate. It was released in the United States on October 29th, 2004, Halloween weekend. And as always, the IMDb logline reads, two men awaken to find themselves on the opposite sides of a dead body. each with specific instructions to kill the other, escape, or face the consequences. These two are the latest contestants in Jigsaw's games. Speaker 3 (11:57) Can I just ask, did you ever see, this was a long time ago, there was a YouTube video where a guy did a sketch where he was Jigsaw's roommate. Have you ever seen this? Speaker 7 (12:06) Yeah. And the tricycle keeps coming into the room. Is this the one? Yeah, I think I saw this. It's Speaker 3 (12:11) where he's like playing games with him, but they're like relatively innocuous games because it's just his roommate. And it's still one of the funniest things I've ever seen. If you all haven't watched this, just look up Jigsaw's roommate on YouTube. It's a classic. Or Josh Speaker 7 (12:24) Rubin on the dropout show Game Changer. One of the prompts he gets is Jigsaw hasn't fully thought the plan through. He does a very funny improvisation of it. Great. Maybe we can put it on the Patreon. Okay. Sources for today's episode include, but are not limited to, Fangoria No. 236 from September 2004, the AV Club's October 2004 interview with Saw creators Lee Wannell and James Wan, Saw 10 Years, the 10th anniversary panel Q &A at Arclight Cinemas Hollywood, rest in peace, Speaker 3 (12:52) the Speaker 7 (12:52) film's audio commentary with Wannell and Wan, and of course, many, many more articles, retrospectives, and interviews with those involved in the film. Now, Lizzie, since we're talking Saw, our story begins with two men. trapped in a small room. Okay, maybe not a small room, but instead an enormous country that's also an island and about as far from Hollywood as you can get. What am I talking about? Australia? Australia! Speaker 3 (13:17) Australia! Speaker 7 (13:18) And the only way out, there's going to be a lot of offensive Australian accents. Speaker 3 (13:22) I'm so sorry. Speaker 7 (13:24) I am so sorry. The only way out of this room or continent or country is if they shoot each other with a video camera. James Wan... and Lee Wannell met when they were 17. They were both attending the Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology, and they were both studying media arts. And Lizzie, neither of them quite fit in. Wannell came from the suburbs. He was raised on a diet of horror movies, and he didn't relate to the, quote, guys in black nail polish and berets making Super 8 films about sand, end quote. Kind of want to see those. I'm with him on that one. I'll pass. He did relate to the stop motion short film about fighting robots that screened in class one day. And he definitely related to the classmate who made it. It was the schlocky and awesome work of one James Wan. Wannell grabbed him in the hallway and said, let's be best friends. It was a bond that was built on the, quote, feeling that this stuff that the rest of the school felt was beneath them was stuff that they loved. It helped that Wannell had a sense of humor. One of the films that he made was apparently about, quote, an angst-ridden suburban teenager who wants to be punk. I love that they're basically like Ben Folds 5, but in Australia at this point in time. It's great. Juan realized Juanel had a gift for writing, and he needed somebody to help him flesh out his ideas. And he had a lot of ideas, like The Debt Collector, about a killer taxman. Sure. Which should have been called Death and Taxes. It's sitting right there. Unlike Juanel, Juan didn't come from the suburbs, exactly. James Juan was born in Malaysia, and from a young age, he loved watching movies, especially scary. movies. Now, like 1L, he did not feel like he fit in in school. He was one of the youngest students in his class, and he reportedly told some of his classmates during orientation, I want to be the next James Cameron. But it was a Steven Spielberg film that truly inspired him. He saw Poltergeist at age seven, and while it, quote, scarred him, it also cemented his interest in horror. He loved, quote, that excitement I had when I was a teenager watching a horror movie that I shouldn't be watching. But when he was 12, Real horror struck when his dad died from cancer. Speaker 6 (15:21) His dad Speaker 7 (15:22) was only in his early 40s, and that number stuck with Juan. He felt that if he wanted to accomplish anything, he'd have to do it before he hit that age. The clock was ticking. Now, unfortunately, Lizzie, Juan and Juanelle didn't drop out of film school to make some breakthrough feature. They didn't graduate with a bunch of heat and sign with a big agency. They, like a lot of people, left school, realized they were broke, and got real jobs. But the fire never died, and they never stopped talking about making a movie together, maybe to distract themselves from their current reality, which was a bit worse for Juan. As he later said, quote, The thing about film school is it's such a nurturing environment. You've got all this equipment at your disposal, all this encouragement from the students and the teachers. You really start to believe, wow, I am going to be the next Steven Spielberg. Then, of course, you finish school, and two months later, you're working for some guy who edits wedding videos, and you're like, oh my God, this is reality. This is what life's really like. I can say like... That feeling of we're going to do it into the cold reality of maybe this industry is not interested in my spec idea for a $200 million sci-fi film coming out of film school. It's Speaker 3 (16:26) a Speaker 7 (16:26) cold plunge into the frozen tundra. That's a terrible metaphor. You know, this Speaker 3 (16:31) is Speaker 7 (16:31) where Speaker 3 (16:31) I really appreciate the semi at times abusive acting teachers because they really make sure you know that you're probably not going to succeed unless you're one of the three like very hot youngs that are in. the class and everybody else, they're like, best of luck. You'll break through in your forties. Maybe. Yeah. Speaker 7 (16:51) They say, have you considered podcasting? Speaker 7 (16:55) The thing is, and I can say this from experience, without film school, you no longer have the gear, you don't have the free labor, and you don't have the time to make a movie. So unless you have money, it can feel like you're trapped. And they definitely didn't have money. But something seemed to be changing over in the United States. There were some bootstrapping young filmmakers who had escaped this trap. So in 1998, Darren Aronofsky broke out his debut feature film, Pie, which I quite liked. And then... Daniel Myrick and Eduardo Sanchez upended the industry with what film, Lizzie? The Speaker 3 (17:28) Blair Witch Project, if I'm Chris. You put the emphasis on the last part. The Blair Speaker 7 (17:32) Witch Project. I am Tucker Carlson. The Blair Witch Project. Speaker 3 (17:38) What Speaker 7 (17:38) are we doing here? As Wannell later put it, it was Aronofsky, I think, who really stood out to them. Quote, he'd made pie with his own money. He was someone like us. He had no connections. He hadn't been directing commercials or music videos. He didn't have any famous relatives. He was just a regular guy who decided to make a film with whatever funds he could scrape together. Someone actually who was doing the same thing around this time that we just discussed is Christopher Nolan, who shot his film Following while working, I believe, for an industrial film company. He was also not shooting commercials or music videos. So if Aronofsky could do it, why couldn't they? Speaker 7 (18:16) But here's the interesting thing. James Wan had technically already shot a feature film. He co-directed it with Shannon Young, another Australian filmmaker, and it was called Stygian. It played at film festivals in Australia sometime in 1998 or 1999. The dates are fuzzy, but it has been completely lost to time. There have been many dogged attempts by fans to dig it up. My sister found a brief set of clips from the film online. We'll put it on our Patreon. visually, there are a lot of touch points similar to Saw. Guns, axes, masks, a creepy clown, a woman chained to what appears to be a sink or a fixture in a basement. Look, it does look extremely low budget. It does look very fun. It looks very schlocky, very hot topic, Lizzie. But for whatever reason, this feature did not find its audience and James Wan has never released it. So perhaps because the first one... I don't know, didn't go anywhere, didn't go great. They decided not