LL Cool J: Four Decades of Relevance

What Now? with Trevor Noah

LL Cool J joins Trevor Noah and Eugene to reflect on his four-decade career, discussing how family values, intuition, and a refusal to let arrogance or cynicism

Key takeaways

• LL Cool J credits his grandmother's advice to 'do it well or not at all' for instilling discipline and internal joy rather than external validation.
• He explains that hip-hop artists are praised for longevity earlier than other genres because the genre itself is only about 50 years old, making pioneers like him feel like founding fathers.

Main topics

• Career longevity & reinvention
• Family upbringing & discipline

Notable quotes

Arrogance can be boring because you're walking around thinking you figured it out so you don't open yourself up to anything that might come in.

Conclusion

The episode offers a reflective blueprint for sustaining creativity and integrity across decades by

Transcript preview

Speaker 4 (0:02) The name, Ladies Love Cool James. Man, Speaker 3 (0:04) that Speaker 4 (0:04) was just Speaker 3 (0:04) wishful thinking, man. I Speaker 4 (0:06) just wanted them to love me, bro. I told you. Is it true that Michael Jackson told you that he was inspired by your band to make his band? Yeah, well, he didn't say that, but, you know, that was the vibe. Speaker 3 (0:17) That was the vibe that we got from Quincy Jones. Yeah. I mean, think about a gray cigar. You look at my career. Imagine if I put the energy in the other way. Speaker 4 (0:26) Yeah. Speaker 3 (0:27) The world would not be, you know, at least New York would have been a very different place. Yeah. Saying I need love in front of a bunch of men who are afraid to say I need love and you're not afraid to say it is the most Speaker 2 (0:39) fearless Speaker 3 (0:40) and courageous thing, right? You know, because like my thing was... I can say I need love because I'm not scared of you. This is What Now? with Trevor Noah. Speaker 1 (0:57) For many of us, going further isn't a choice. It's a feeling we can't ignore because ambition has a way of outgrowing where it began. Speaker 1 (1:08) Turning dreams into direction. Speaker 1 (1:14) Every journey brings us closer to the life we imagine. Speaker 1 (1:20) So, where will your journey take you? Etihad. Beyond borders. Speaker 4 (1:34) Man, there are a few people that have more of an illustrious career than you. Oh, wow. You know what's actually interesting is it actually makes it a little intimidating because you as a human being are interesting enough. You know what I'm saying? Thank you for Speaker 3 (1:46) that. Okay. Like, Speaker 4 (1:46) that's like the biggest reason I'd want to hang out with you and we want to hang with you and talk to you and, you know, Speaker 3 (1:51) just Speaker 4 (1:51) like figure out how you think, why you think, get inspired, just break things down together. But the body of work that comes with it, you're like, man, do not take for granted. It's like... one of the only artists to have like back-to-back multi-platinum selling albums. You know, like you have somebody who has defined a genre. That to me still like blows my mind and we'll talk about, but like defined a genre. You know what I mean? Not even a pioneer, not like, oh yeah, no, no, no. Defined something and then has gone on to redefine every single element of what they do, where they do it, how they do it. Thank you, man. He's just like, damn. Speaker 2 (2:32) Yeah. LL Cool Speaker 4 (2:33) J. Speaker 2 (2:33) The other thing that he's defined very well, you defied it, eh? Defied it. Was age. Oh. You were like, that thing is not coming to my house. Stay away, Speaker 3 (2:44) please. In the window with the Speaker 4 (2:47) sniper rifle, like, get back. Nah, nah. Speaker 3 (2:52) Yo, you know what? We do the best we can, right? You know what I mean? Just stay in the gym and hope for the, fingers crossed, bro. That's all we can do, right? You've just beat Speaker 2 (3:03) that guy. Speaker 3 (3:04) Well, from your mouth, the guards is. Speaker 2 (3:06) No, 100%. So I was thinking before we came here, I was like, okay, you know, like if someone is in the army, they become a general. Yeah. You have to call them general forever. Yeah, yeah. If they're a president, they're still president forever. So with you, is it LL, cool J, or is it cool, or is it J, or is it LL? Well. And actually, who gets to Speaker 3 (3:27) call you Todd? There we go. That's funny. So, you know, actually, you know, whenever I'm on set or, you know, just in like around situations like this, I like people to call me Todd because sometimes I feel like when I know people and if they call me LL, I feel like, you know, like I'm pulling out my Wikipedia for them or something. It's like, you Speaker 4 (3:45) know, so Todd is like, Speaker 3 (3:47) like if we're at a conference or we're hanging out, I prefer you call me Todd. Yes. Right. Speaker 3 (3:54) I don't really, honestly, I don't really take. Speaker 3 (3:58) I Speaker 4 (3:58) take the art seriously, but I don't really look at accolades and I don't walk around with those stripes like that. I don't think Speaker 3 (4:04) about that. I don't spend my life thinking about that. I'm thinking about what we could do great, where we can have some fun, what we can create, where we could create some magic, what we're doing wrong that we can get better at. You know what I mean? Yeah, I'm Speaker 1 (4:18) with Speaker 3 (4:18) you. I Speaker 1 (4:18) think Speaker 3 (4:18) about things that way. I don't really, just like you, you're very successful. You know, you just don't go around thinking about your accomplishments. You think about what's next and what you could do, at Speaker 4 (4:27) least for me. Yeah, but I think, I love Eugene's question because. Speaker 4 (4:32) There are certain names that become more than just how you refer to the person. They become an idea. Speaker 3 (4:39) Do you get what I'm saying? I do. I understand. Speaker 4 (4:41) And then that name comes with like a familiarity. It comes with an idea behind it. So it says a lot about you as a person that you go on set, at a conference, in a space where I'm with familiar people or even like intimate people. I prefer Todd because I want them to not think of my Wikipedia. You see... That already puts you in a completely different world because most people work their entire lives to make sure that everyone in their lives always knows about their work. And you're trying to do the opposite. Yeah, Speaker 3 (5:12) you know, and it goes back, I guess out of the three, I would want it to be cool. You know what I'm saying? You know, I would want it to be that, you know, for the right reasons. You know what I'm saying? But... You know. Speaker 3 (5:26) You know, there comes a time when you got to let your accomplishments speak for themselves. So, you know, like even like with my music, when I was making music consistently, I would say the most outlandish, most cocky, most arrogant thing you can think of on the song. But when we press stop on the song or when we, you know, when we stop it, it stays on the song. You know what I mean? You didn't let Speaker 4 (5:51) that hype or that idea follow you beyond the recording? Speaker 3 (5:54) No. No, no, no. Because it's... You know, arrogance can be boring. Not necessarily for the people watching, but for the arrogant person. Because they're just running around, just not learning anything, not seeing anything, not really having any true authentic experiences because they're so arrogant that their windows are shut. They're not letting, the curtains are drawn. They're not letting no sunshine in. They're not letting any light in. Speaker 4 (6:24) I don't think I've ever heard anybody say that. That's amazing. Arrogance can be boring. I've genuinely never heard anyone say Speaker 2 (6:29) that. Speaker 4 (6:29) And to the Speaker 2 (6:29) person who's arrogant. No, no, Speaker 4 (6:30) no, that's what I mean. Arrogance can be boring because you're walking around thinking you figured it out so you don't open yourself up to anything that might come in. Speaker 4 (6:39) When I was trying to think about how we even contextualize you as a human being, so many people know you. Some people know you through only one facet of your life. I found myself wondering, for somebody who has been famous, famous from the age of what, 15, 16? Yeah, Speaker 3 (6:58) 16. Speaker 4 (6:58) 16 years old. I mean, famous, famous. Speaker 4 (7:03) If you were in a world where nobody knew you. Speaker 2 (7:06) Cape Verde. No one knows anyone. Where? Where? Where? Cape Verde. That's hilarious. What? Cape Verde? Speaker 4 (7:17) No, Speaker 2 (7:17) they know you in Cape Verde. I'm going to bet they know I know Kool J. Cape Verde. No, Cape Verde. Speaker 3 (7:21) Where's Cape Verde? Speaker 2 (7:22) It's seven islands off the coast of Africa and Portugal. I'm going. Right there. Speaker 4 (7:28) We can bet money they know him. Speaker 2 (7:30) No, they do. Because he's done too much. They Speaker 3 (7:31) do. Speaker 2 (7:32) Because Speaker 3 (7:32) it's like, okay, they'll Speaker 4 (7:34) know him from a movie. Speaker 3 (7:35) Actually, you know, I'm okay with that. It's just room to grow, actually, you know? Speaker 4 (7:38) Yeah, but... Speaker 4 (7:40) How would you introduce yourself in that world? How would you give somebody a quick introduction into who you are and how you became that way? When you think of your life, when you go like, oh, this is what... Because most people would put it down to your rap career. Some people would put it down to your formative life experiences. Some people might put it down to your success. But when you think of your life, where do you look back and go to like, oh man, that moment there, that's the beginning of this human being that you all meet today? Speaker 3 (8:06) Well, I think at the end of the day, it's the software that we're programmed, right? We are all biological hardware. Our mother gives birth to us. We are biological hardware. And then how we're programmed. through our upbringing is when the software and the programs are uploaded, right? And unfortunately, some of us get spammed out early. Some Speaker 2 (8:29) of us get viruses. Junk mail. It gets nasty work. It gives me some nasty work in that programming track. Speaker 1 (8:34) You Speaker 3 (8:35) know what I mean? But it's that programming. And so the first programming I got from my grandmother and my mother was, if a task is once begun, never leave it till it's done. Be thy labor great or small. Do it well or not at all. And so from day one, I had been thinking about things in that context. You know, I never, you know, I just, I'm a big believer that you can make your dreams a reality. You know, I sincerely believe that. And I don't, you know, I consistently look to conquer myself. You know what I mean? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, actually. You know? Speaker 4 (9:10) No, no, I know exactly Speaker 3 (9:11) what you mean. Speaker 4 (9:12) Yeah. That's a fascinating way to look at it because you know what I love about anyone who tells a story, like that you say, about their software developer, their mom or their dad or whoever it was who programmed them. It always seems to me like the best programmers are the people in our lives who know how to give us the correct information for us, not for anyone. Yes. Speaker 3 (9:33) Absolutely. Speaker 4 (9:34) Because what you Speaker 3 (9:34) just said. Speaker 4 (9:36) is powerful, but it Speaker 3 (9:37) seemed like it really worked for you. That is, you know what? That's a very, very... Speaker 3 (9:44) astute, that's a real sharp insight because everything don't work for everybody, right? Speaker 2 (9:49) For Speaker 3 (9:50) me, I just happened to be a little kid who liked hanging around their grandparents and actually listened to their parents, listened to their mother, listened to all my grandparents. I actually listened to them. I thought what they were saying made sense. You're a unique kid. You know what I mean? Which is really crazy. The only time I didn't listen is... is when there was time when my mother, my grandmother said to me, you either, because I had made my first song. Right. And my grandmother said, you either go to school or you got to Speaker 2 (10:19) get Speaker 3 (10:19) out. And that's, oh, you what? Oh, Speaker 2 (10:22) you put your shirt on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. First of all, Speaker 3 (10:24) you got Speaker 2 (10:25) jewelry on, Speaker 3 (10:26) put Speaker 2 (10:27) a shirt on. Yeah, yeah, Speaker 3 (10:28) yeah. Grandma definitely wanted me to put my shirt on. She did? Yeah. And whatever you do, don't pierce your nipples. You know what I Speaker 1 (10:35) mean? Speaker 3 (10:36) Whatever you do, please. Again. Don't ever pierce your nipples again. Speaker 1 (10:44) You Speaker 3 (10:44) know what I mean? So, yeah, that was the thing, right? It's like that was the only moment, you know, that was the only moment when I was like. Speaker 3 (10:55) Now I got to do this and I went after my dream. But other than that, I always listen. So, you know, it's choices are deep. Joyce is a deep, you know, you, um, I mean, what you guys have accomplished, you, you know, you globally, you, you know, you went, came from your country and came all the way around the world. And you came to America, conquered America. Like that's a big deal, but that had to start somewhere Speaker 2 (11:18) that Speaker 3 (11:19) had to start somewhere like that, that spirit, that determination. Cause you had to. scrap you know get make your way out of your country go through that whole process and then arrive here and you're in the corner of a room again and work your way back to the center then go to the next floor and you're in the corner of the room again you got to work your way back to the center so that's pretty so you get it that journey it's the the thing is the question is The question is... Speaker 3 (11:48) Can you deal? With. Speaker 3 (11:52) difficulty and friction, right? Like it's like, I always tell people in order to really be successful, especially in the arts. Speaker 4 (12:00) Yeah. Speaker 3 (12:01) And you have to have rhino skin and a baby's heart. Speaker 4 (12:04) Yeah. That's beautiful. Rhino Speaker 3 (12:07) skin Speaker 4 (12:07) and a baby's heart. Speaker 2 (12:08) You know, I find it I can always tell people who are raised by females, who are raised by mothers, grandmothers, aunts. Women who raise you will always instill in you some level of honesty that you will never get out of a friend or of a male. You know what, though? My Speaker 3 (12:26) grandfather was there for me. I had a man in my life as well as women. I had balance. But the thing is, the honesty thing you're talking about is true. It's like, you know, people need to tell you, you know, what it is. Like my grandmother would always say to me, like if they felt. Like my grandfather would be like, oh, you're Speaker 1 (12:41) swaggering. Speaker 3 (12:42) Your shoulder, you're swaggering, right? And I'd be, you know, I'd be a little kid. What are you going to do when you're 16? You're swaggering, right? And then my grandmother would be like, you know, I'm walking around here like your little Lord Fauntleroy and all that. You know, you think your little Lord Fauntleroy. You know, it's like Speaker 4 (12:57) I had a very wild, because my grandfather. He was a jazz musician, wasn't he? He was a jazz musician. He came from Barbados. Right, right, right. He Speaker 3 (13:04) came from Speaker 4 (13:04) Barbados. Oh, Speaker 3 (13:05) I Speaker 4 (13:05) didn't know that. Speaker 3 (13:05) Yeah, so I had a Caribbean. household with a Southern American, African American household. Okay. Okay. So that, that kind of, it was a different type of upbringing. That island vibe, Speaker 4 (13:19) like the way Speaker 3 (13:20) like Barbados, Speaker 4 (13:21) you know, my friends from Barbados, Trinidad, et cetera. It's just like a different relationship, especially intergenerational. I find. Yes. Do you know what I mean? I like, like depending on where you're from in the world. Some cultures, I find the relationship between generations is a lot more strict and closed off. Yes. And then with some island cultures, it's a lot more like integrated and inclusive. It's people spending more time across generations together. Definitely. Do you Speaker 3 (13:49) know Speaker 4 (13:49) what I mean? Speaker 3 (13:49) Yes. So I'm, you know, eight years old and I'm with my grandparents hanging out while they're having company. Speaker 4 (13:54) There you go. All right. All right. You Speaker 3 (13:55) see what I'm saying? So I'm sitting around Speaker 4 (13:57) hearing Speaker 3 (13:57) like, you know. My grandfather's sitting there with the bourbon and the peanuts. Yeah, Speaker 2 (14:01) yeah, yeah. Speaker 3 (14:01) You know, it is just, you know, it's... Speaker 2 (14:03) Swaggering. Speaker 3 (14:05) Swaggering, you know. They can knock the steam out you and all that old, you know. Speaker 4 (14:10) What kind of kid were you like at that? Were you a talkative kid? Were you a, you know... Because I don't Speaker 3 (14:15) know Speaker 4 (14:15) if I'm reading this right. you know, I've met you a handful of times, you know, we've, we've met each other at the Grammys where you've been very kind to me. And like, you know, just like, I've always seen you as like a, it's weird to say this, but like there's people I look at who are like big brothers in the roles that I've been lucky enough to occupy. Does that make sense? You know? So, so in many ways, like John Oliver was always like a big brother in, in TV for me because it was like, he was the other foreign guy who came and did this thing. And then he like, looked upon me like in like a really loving way, which I always appreciated. You did the same thing for me with the Grammys. Like every time I would see you there. Yeah, man, this guy would, cause like the Grammys is, yo man, it's. It's a big lift. It's Speaker 2 (14:54) a Speaker 4 (14:54) heavy lift. Think about it. You, if you, if you mess up, you are screwing up. Forget yourself. There's that part already. You're an idiot. You're a loser. You've messed up everything. Right. That's you. Yeah. But think of what the night means to everybody else. Yeah. Speaker 2 (15:08) The whole Speaker 4 (15:09) life's work. Yeah, if you screw up the night, then you become the thing that people remember on a night when all they wanted to remember was their moment and their accomplishment. So the weirdest thing about it is you're trying to make the night not about you. But you have to facilitate the night. So all of that is on you. You're doing this thing. You know, you're trying to get into it. The room is filled with every luminary you can imagine. So you're starstruck and you're in awe. And you take, this is something a lot of people take for granted. I didn't realize this. Many of the people you look up to that you think know each other have never met. 100%. You'd be shocked at how many A-list actors. Speaker 4 (15:51) greatest musicians or meet for the first time at some of these events. No Speaker 3 (15:55) way. Absolutely. Absolutely. Speaker 4 (15:57) You'll be shocked. So everything is happening in this room. Everything is happening in the front of the world. Speaker 3 (16:03) And Speaker 4 (16:03) then you get this man who'll just come up to you, give me a big bear hug. And he's like, you got this, man. He was like, yo, just do it. But he just like... The Speaker 2 (16:12) FME. Speaker 4 (16:12) Yes. But then the other thing you gave me, maybe I'm totally wrong in saying this. you seem like the most outgoing and yet shy person I know. Yeah, you know, Speaker 3 (16:25) you're not wrong. I think you're not wrong. I'm like, I'm an introvert. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, okay. That's what I'm picking up. I'm Speaker 4 (16:32) an Speaker 3 (16:32) introvert. You know what I'm saying? So I love people and, you know, I'm comfortable around people, but, you know, I'm probably even more comfortable in a room with 2,000 books and a chair. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know what I mean? That's like the outside is not what recharges you. No. Yeah, not at all. Yeah. Speaker 2 (16:49) But I don't Speaker 3 (16:49) mind it. Like, I love people. I'm vibing. Everything's good. It's good energy. But, you know. Yeah. It's time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I will disappear. Like, where'd he go? Yeah, there is a where did he go factor. It's definitely a where did he go factor. Sounds Speaker 2 (17:04) very familiar. Speaker 3 (17:04) Where Speaker 2 (17:05) is Speaker 4 (17:05) he? Oh, man. Speaker 2 (17:07) That's the longevity. That's why he's young. Dundale Records, man. Sounds very familiar. Yeah, we just... Are you like that? We're like that. Yeah, we're completely like that. Okay, got it. We are 100 % Speaker 4 (17:18) like that. Yeah, man. So you can... Maybe that's what it is. I can pick it up in somebody else where I go, this person is not necessarily needing me or anyone to engage with them. They're cordial. They're interested. They're curious. They will engage. They're warm. However, they do not need to fill space with noise. There you go. There you go. Yeah. They're comfortable in silence Speaker 2 (17:44) as well. You Speaker 4 (17:45) know those people who sit at a table with you and then just feel like because there's silence, they have to be like, so, huh? Yeah, yeah, yeah. LL. Yeah. LL. Yeah. Do they still love him? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, boy. Here we go. Speaker 4 (18:03) Why are you looking at me like that? Speaker 2 (18:06) Because for a moment there, I believed that you were the guy. But you know those Speaker 4 (18:09) people. Speaker 2 (18:09) I was Speaker 4 (18:10) like, yeah, I believe Speaker 2 (18:10) it. You know Speaker 4 (18:11) those people. Yeah, I know them. And I understand it. 100%. Because some people, they're made uncomfortable by it. But I think it also comes partially with being a watcher. 100%. Well, you know, Speaker 2 (18:21) I think. Speaker 3 (18:22) I think the world is... I think, yeah, you got to know yourself, but the world is really an interesting place and people are very interesting. Speaker 2 (18:30) People Speaker 3 (18:31) are very interesting. I mean, you could just watch somebody, a lady walking with a bike with a coffee and like they just, yo, if you just watch people, a dude walking with a cell phone. I was watching people when I came over here today. Yeah. Dude walking with a cell phone. He looks so suspicious and like, I'm like, we're Speaker 2 (18:46) just Speaker 3 (18:46) going to secret agent. My favorite thing is watching, is watching joggers as well. Yo, it's unbelievable. Joggers are very weird. Speaker 2 (18:50) Unbelievable. Yeah. Everyone jogs differently for a different purpose. 100%. At Speaker 3 (18:54) a different speed. Speaker 2 (18:54) 100%. Some of them look like they need to jog. Some of them look like they've been jogging for a while. Some of them look like they shouldn't be jogging at all. You see one dude Speaker 3 (19:02) walking. He looked like he was so uncomfortable. It was hot outside. I said, look at him. I said, he's so uncomfortable. He looked like he's under duress right now. I Speaker 2 (19:11) was Speaker 3 (19:14) like, yo, man. My man is hurting right now. Speaker 3 (19:20) I was at the window. I like watching people. Yeah, Speaker 4 (19:22) no question. No question. Speaker 3 (19:24) You know what I think of in Speaker 4 (19:25) moments like that? You know, in all of psychology, in all of self-help, in all these worlds, they'll always say to you, hey, don't worry about what's happening or what people think. No one cares. No one's looking at you. And then this person's like, Speaker 2 (19:39) yeah. And then this person goes outside for a walk. And not only is Speaker 4 (19:42) someone looking at them, but someone looking at them is LL Cool J. Speaker 3 (19:46) Yo, man. Yo, you never know who's watching. Yo, that is facts. You never know who's watching. Speaker 2 (19:57) Yo, Speaker 3 (19:58) that is the craziest part. Yo, that is so, you're so right about that. That's the thing. Yo, you know how crazy that is? Just think about that for a moment. I'm Speaker 4 (20:08) just sitting there like, Speaker 3 (20:08) I'm just sitting in my car like, look at him. He's uncomfortable. I'm like, look at him. Look at him. You know what I mean? Oh, man. Like, I seen this woman backing up from this guy, like, and I could tell she was, like, getting Speaker 4 (20:20) him to do something he didn't want to do. And, you know, he was. Yeah, you really. No, you're like, you're a full on observer. Yeah, I was peeping. People watching is amazing. Speaker 3 (20:26) Peeping it. Speaker 4 (20:27) People watching is amazing. But that, okay, that explains a lot of, like, your music then. You know? One of the mistakes I've seen a lot of people make, and maybe I'm being presumptive in assuming that this is a mistake. Two things I've noticed. One. This applies to you and I think to a lot of hip-hop artists in general. there's an obsession on longevity in a way that I don't see applied to other genres. That's the first thing. And I found myself wondering like why that is. Let me explain. So let's say there's been somebody who's been in rock and they've been playing rock music since they were 30 years old. We meet, 20 even, we meet them when they're like 60. Only when they get into the latter years, I mean the real latter years, will people be like the staying power of Mick Jagger and the guys, Longevity and the Beatles and Paul McCartney, et cetera, right? Yeah, exactly. Speaker 4 (21:20) But I found like with hip hop artists at 40 something already, people are like, man, your longevity, your staying power. At 40. Wow. I've always Speaker 3 (21:29) wondered, what do you think that's about? Well, I think the reality is that the difference is that like. Speaker 3 (21:37) It's kind of like being around the founding fathers of a country. You know, it's like, if you, you're like born when George Washington was born and 60 years later, you'd Speaker 4 (21:47) be Speaker 3 (21:47) like, wow, America's been here for a while. You know, we've been here, you know what I mean? Like, you're like, so it's a new genre. I think because the genre itself is so young, it's only 50 some years old itself as a genre. Speaker 2 (22:01) So, so I think Speaker 4 (22:02) people, yeah, I've never thought of it that way. Speaker 3 (22:03) People kind of, that has a lot to do with it. And also, We've never went through the cycle see a lot of jazz rock and roll They've went through the cycle of seeing artists be young and grow older in the music within it Where hip hop is the first time. Yeah, this is the first time that this is happening. So it's new for everybody George Speaker 2 (22:23) Washington is still alive. Speaker 3 (22:24) Yeah in that yes, exactly though in that sense. Yes, or you named the the Speaker 4 (22:29) ancient person or person in history. I've never thought of that. Yeah. So you're Speaker 3 (22:34) walking around and it's like, Oh, there's grandmaster flash. Oh, there's DJ cool hurt. Oh, you know, there's the fearless four. Oh, there's run DMC. Oh, there's LL Cool J. It's like, we hit this fab five Freddie. We're here. You see what I'm saying? So it, it's a little different. I think because of that. Now, some people kind of obsess over like, Speaker 3 (23:01) appropriate age to make hip hop and all that. But I think the majority of time when you hear people obsessing over that, that's just fear talking. In what way? I think that they just fearful that they won't be able to do something impactful. So they start Speaker 2 (23:16) calling Speaker 3 (23:18) sour grapes on the idea of making something hot at a certain age. It's like, no, you just got a challenge in front of you. It's possible. You just got a challenge. Just own it. Just own it. Don't say that it's not appropriate. Speaker 3 (23:36) To be hot at a certain age now because you really just afraid you can't do it anymore Because your fans are still around. Yeah. You still have fans. Your fans didn't vaporize. Yeah. They didn't evaporate. So you can still make something for your fans. Now, if you, you know. are trying to make, you know. Speaker 3 (24:01) Whatever you want to make but if you're trying to appeal to 11 year olds you might have a problem but but even then Speaker 3 (24:09) You can put a Michael Jackson video on right now and a little kid will walk by and go. Speaker 4 (24:14) It's funny you say that. This is the biggest argument I've been having with my friends recently. About 11 year olds. Don't do that. But second of all... Speaker 3 (24:21) Yeah, yeah, this guy here. He's just... No, Speaker 4 (24:27) there was Speaker 3 (24:27) no argument. Okay. I'll jump in Speaker 1 (24:30) on that. There Speaker 3 (24:30) was no argument. Speaker 1 (24:32) As Speaker 3 (24:33) a matter of fact, there was guns being loaded. Speaker 4 (24:36) So you know what it is? So off the... You know, obviously because of the Michael movie, right? Yeah. Everyone's back in the music. It's... It's seen a new lease on life in a different way, a new injection, a new vibe. And I've noticed so many people being like, oh, wow, my kids love the music. I didn't realize that they would love the music. And I was going, there's this idea in art that I butt up against. And it's this idea that people need to change their art to match. the audience that they think exists now. Speaker 2 (25:08) And I argue Speaker 4 (25:09) great art stays great art. Great food stays great food. Like great stays great. The only difference is how do you tell the story differently to the person? Does this make sense? So when I think of like, let's use food as a simple example, right? Someone will go, oh, restaurants are dying. Young people don't go to restaurants anymore. They don't care for the food. Then I'm like, no. That's not true. It's not that they don't care for the food. They don't care for the experience that the food was packaged in. Right. Right? Oh, that's strong. Speaker 3 (25:42) The Speaker 4 (25:42) tablecloth. That's strong. The way you have to dress. That's Speaker 2 (25:45) strong. Speaker 4 (25:45) The Speaker 2 (25:45) institution Speaker 4 (25:45) that contained the food does not appeal to them. But the food, you know how you know this? Because that same chef will go open a food truck, put it in a neighborhood that's cool and young. The kids will flock there. They'll wait in line for hours. It'll be on TikTok. That's Speaker 2 (26:00) deep. Speaker 4 (26:00) And you go. This is the same chef. They wouldn't even Speaker 2 (26:02) care how much they're paying. Exactly. They'll Speaker 4 (26:03) be like, but this chef at that restaurant. They go, have you been to his restaurant? They're like, we didn't even know he has a restaurant. We just know the food truck. Speaker 2 (26:08) And Speaker 4 (26:08) that's when you realize it's not about changing the art to the audience. It's just about understanding the institution that you've lifted in. Yeah. And that's something I've noticed you do consistently. Two things. One. you're not afraid to relearn. I mean, you talked about this, you know, with Q-tip, for instance, it's like... You said something that I've only heard one other like great, and I mean like a goat say, and there was Tiger Woods when he said he had to relearn his swing. And I remember hearing that going, what do you mean you have to relearn? You can't learn your Tiger Woods. And he talked about having to relearn his swing. You're one of the only other people I've heard talk about that. You said you had to relearn how to rap. Speaker 3 (26:49) Yeah, Speaker 4 (26:49) yeah, because, you know. Speaker 3 (26:52) Language change changes. Speaker 3 (26:57) technique, people get more proficient in certain techniques, things evolve. Right. Right. So. Speaker 3 (27:07) Like I put it to you like this if Speaker 3 (27:12) If a young basketball player can be inspired by an older basketball player or a current basketball player and add some of those moves to their repertoire, right? Speaker 4 (27:23) Yeah, which is what they all do. Which is what they Speaker 3 (27:25) all do. Then why can't a current basketball player go to the playground or go to the videotape and see something and incorporate some of those Speaker 4 (27:35) new things into his repertoire? Arrogance and fear. Speaker 3 (27:37) There you go. There you go. Speaker 4 (27:40) You see what I'm saying? Yeah. Speaker 3 (27:41) Arrogance and fear. And see, the thing is, see, people can, you can't confuse a desire to improve with a lack of confidence. Don't conflate those two ideas. Speaker 3 (27:52) You can't conflate those two ideas. You know what I mean? Speaker 2 (27:57) Lack of desire and a fear to learn. Yeah. Speaker 3 (27:59) Whatever you got. You said what? Speaker 2 (28:00) Lack of desire and a fear to learn. Yeah. Speaker 3 (28:02) If you got to learn, you got to, what did you say? Lack Speaker 2 (28:05) of? Desire. Speaker 3 (28:05) Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You got to have that desire and you have to want to learn. You know what I mean? And so that's how I look at it. Like study, study the craft. You can go back and watch every great comedian that ever existed. No reason not to. You could go to a comedy club with a baseball hat low and you and your man, and you could sit there and watch things that are happening. You could gain an understanding of the current zeitgeist because that's Speaker 4 (28:32) a Speaker 3 (28:32) lot of it too. See, art, people confuse. See, commercially successful art. is about how it connects with the current zeitgeist. Great art in general is just about what you create from the soul and put out there. I like that there's a distinction. Speaker 4 (28:47) And there's a distinction, right? So you Speaker 3 (28:49) can have something that's really, really great. It just doesn't necessarily connect with the majority of the zeitgeist at the time. That doesn't mean it's not great. Prime example, you just talked about Michael Jackson. The film allowed... the music to connect with the current zeitgeist and the quality of the music took care of itself. Speaker 4 (29:09) Yeah. Speaker 3 (29:10) Right? Yeah. So that's what you're talking about. That's exactly it. Yeah. That's exactly it. Speaker 2 (29:14) I remember, this is so crazy. Sorry to cut you off. We were speaking about back in the day when you started doing television in SA, the late night show. We used to be so frustrated with how the direction of the show was going. And I remember the one thing that you once said was, don't you stress yourself that I just don't know where it's going. But there was no clue that you were going to do the