A Forensic Architect

What It's Like To Be... with Dan Heath

This episode follows Jorge McCormack, a forensic architect in Florida, as he explains how he diagnoses building problems, investigates construction defects, and serves as an expert witness in

Key takeaways

• Jorge McCormack says water is usually the number one culprit behind building design or construction defects, and he avoids saying
• because it can trigger legal repercussions.
• In one case, what began as an interior-finish complaint led to discovery that structural columns had deteriorated so badly that McCormack could stick his finger through them and they disintegrated.
• McCormack says forensic architecture reports must be factual and avoid absolutes or flowery language because opposing counsel will attack any ambiguity.
• He describes depositions as often happening on Zoom and notes that hostile attorneys may attack his credibility, work history, or motives, but he treats it as part of the game.
• McCormack uses AI tools to sift through a case file of 41,000 unnamed PDF files, though he still says he has to read everything because his name is on the report.

Main topics

• forensic architecture and building diagnosis
• water intrusion, mold, and structural defects
• expert witness reports and legal defensibility

Notable quotes

We don't like saying mold because it triggers certain legal repercussions that have to be followed if we use the word.

Conclusion

The episode offers a vivid, practical portrait of forensic architecture as a blend of

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) Jorge McCormack trained and practiced as a design architect, but several years back, he stopped designing buildings and started diagnosing them. He's now a forensic architect. So I guess the best way to Speaker 3 (0:14) describe it is a building doctor. Speaker 3 (0:20) If a building is too cold, if it's too hot, if it's leaking, smells funny, or making weird noises, they'll call a forensic architect to come in and diagnose the patient. Speaker 2 (0:33) And he uses that diagnosis to serve as an expert witness in lawsuits. That's where the forensic part of his job comes in. Now, we're going to get into the weeds later of how he does all that diagnostic work. But first, a spoiler. The villain of these stories is often water. Water can lead to a lot Speaker 3 (0:55) of different problems with a building. It's usually the number one culprit of any type of building design defects or construction defects. Mold can lead to suspected organic growth, which is another way of saying mold. And, you know, we don't like saying mold because it triggers certain legal repercussions that have to be followed if we use the word. So we always say suspected organic growth. Oh, Speaker 2 (1:16) really? Suspected organic growth. I love that. Speaker 3 (1:19) Suspected organic growth. We don't know it's mold because, you know, they have to take it to a lab and they have to test it and verify that it's actually mold. Speaker 2 (1:25) But Speaker 3 (1:26) most of my cases, it's usually water getting into the building somehow. Speaker 2 (1:31) Even architectural masterpieces are not immune to the effects of water. You Speaker 3 (1:37) know, they have this idea that being a great designer means that physics no longer applies to you. You know, falling water is a great example. They call it, you know, leaking water. Because it leaks all over the place because Frank Lloyd Wright didn't pay attention to waterproofing details. The Guggenheim is another great example that leaks. You know, because physics is physics. You can't suspend the laws of physics just because you're a starkitect. Speaker 2 (2:09) I'm Dan Heath, and this is What It's Like to Be. In every episode, we walk in the shoes of someone from a different profession. A veterinarian, a floral decorator, a life insurance agent. We want to know what they do all day at work. Today, we'll ask Jorge McCormack what it's like to be a forensic architect. We'll talk about how he uses sound to diagnose a building's problems, how opposing attorneys try to trip him up when he's testifying. And what happens when you discover that a building's support beams are crumbling? Stay with us. Speaker 2 (2:50) When something goes badly wrong with a building, people start pointing fingers. Then they call lawyers. And the lawyers call Jorge. His job is to figure out what went wrong with the building and why. Speaker 3 (3:05) You know, whether it's a design issue, whether the engineer didn't do the correct calculations, whether the architect didn't design per code, whether he did not meet the standard of care. whether a contractor did not follow the plans. There's a lot of investigating that has to happen. And sometimes it's no one's fault. Sometimes it's what we call an Speaker 2 (3:25) act of God. About 80 % of the time, Jorge is hired by the defendant in a lawsuit, usually a contractor or subcontractor being sued by a building owner. The rest of the time, he's on the other side. So here's an example. In one case, there was a building owner who hired Jorge. There had been some issues with the interior finishes in a building, and there was a lawsuit brewing because the owner thought maybe the contractors didn't build it properly. So Jorge came out to look around. Speaker 3 (3:57) And I was walking the exterior. I noticed that there was a lot of cracking on the stucco. And I'm like, huh, that's interesting. And so, you know, stucco is like a cementitious finish. It's kind of like a concrete. Speaker 2 (4:08) But Speaker 3 (4:08) it always cracks, you know, especially if it's on a wood substrate because, you know, wood and concrete are two unlike materials that expand and contract at different rates, right? So stucco is always going to crack. But there's certain amounts of cracking that's allowable, tolerable, and normal. This is cracking way more. So I tell the client, like, hey, let's go test the stucco. Let's take some probes, you know, let's just cut out a little section on the wall and measure the thickness to see if it was installed per the ASTM standard. We get out there. We open a hole in the wall. We look behind the wall. The structural columns are Speaker 2 (4:42) gone. The structural columns, like the columns that are holding up the building, basically. The Speaker 3 (4:49) building, the holding up balconies, holding up buildings have deteriorated to the point where it is no longer structurally viable. Speaker 2 (4:57) Oh, man. And so what does that actually look like? Does it look like rotted wood or Speaker 3 (5:02) what did you see? You can stick your finger through it and it just disintegrates. Speaker 2 (5:06) Oh, man. Yeah. That's terrifying. So how come the building had not collapsed? Speaker 3 (5:12) You know, because there's still a lot of redundancy, especially when it comes to wood frame buildings. Okay. The load path goes through a lot of different areas. But what happened is there was a design and construction issue that wasn't followed. And those wall cavities were basically acting like gutters. And that was another clue because I wanted, usually when we take probes, we take like little circular cores. We come up with a bit, we drill in, we come out, and then we measure the different thicknesses of the stucco, the OSB, the sheathing. What's OSB? OSB is oriented strand board. You know, people call it particle board. I'm not a big fan of it because it doesn't, if it ever gets moisture, it just turns into oatmeal. It loses a lot of its structural ability. So I tend to say, if you're going to build out of wood, build out of plywood. Speaker 2 (6:02) But OSP, Speaker 3 (6:03) a lot of developers like it because it meets minimum standards and it's cheap. But if it gets moisture, it just disintegrates. You can just grab it and pull it apart, right? So I noticed that there was a peculiarly issue with some of the balcony details and some of the terraces. And I said, you know, let's instead of doing the course, let's open up a larger hole because I want to look behind there. And that probably saved a lot of lives in the future because we had to come in and put emergency shoring on all the balconies. And this all started out from the initial investigation was some interior finishes that were not right. Speaker 2 (6:38) Oh, man. So you thought it was almost like a cosmetic story in a way. And it turns out to be this building is going to fall down Speaker 3 (6:45) unless we do something. Yeah, we had to scramble and get everything shored up. So we had to open up all the walls and all the buildings. And yeah, it's still ongoing. Speaker 2 (6:56) When you're hired by somebody, is your job to help the side that hired you or are you supposed to be neutral? We're supposed to be neutral. Speaker 3 (7:07) So you're only as good as your reputation, right? And sometimes you have to deliver clients bad news, especially attorneys, because attorneys have to figure out how they're going about their case. And if you just give them something that they want to hear, they may not have the leverage or they may have a lot more exposure than what they originally thought. Speaker 2 (7:26) But nobody wants to pay you guys a bunch of money for a report and then have it favor the person they're up against in court. Like, how do they mitigate that risk? Sometimes we will just do a Speaker 3 (7:37) verbal opinion. So if they don't want a full report, which, you know, takes time and takes out billable hours, we can just do our site investigation. And a lot of times I'll start out with that and say, like, hey, do you want me to start out with a verbal report? And a verbal report is just a phone call. Speaker 2 (7:52) Okay. And Speaker 3 (7:53) say like, hey, I think you have a lot of exposure here. I think your client messed up here or your client, oh, your client is free and clear. Do you want us to rebut the report and go move forward? So we have these steps, you know,