What Is the Voice in Your Head Costing You? | The Inner Game Podcast

What Is the Voice in Your Head Costing You? | The Inner Game Podcast

This episode explores the mechanics of mental performance through the lens of three elite coaches—Bob Bowman, George Mumford, and Brian Johnson—who share how they guide world-class athletes like Michael Jordan

Key takeaways

• Bob Bowman details his coaching evolution from a rigid 'hammer' approach to integrating empathy and logic after realizing athletes require internal motivation rather than external force.
• George Mumford explains the autonomic nervous system's role in self-talk, noting that fear triggers survival mode while curiosity activates growth mode, making it impossible to be in both simultaneously.

Main topics

• Mental performance coaching
• Self-talk and nervous system regulation

Notable quotes

"Performance = potential − interference."

Conclusion

Listeners gain a practical framework for transforming self-sabotaging

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) Michael Jordan said this, I never have any self-talk that destroys my confidence. This is how I went from being in the crack house to being behind the bench of the NBA championship team. I ain't Michael Kobe, but you're just like me, you're just a human being. So how'd you do it? Speaker 4 (0:13) Today on the podcast, Bob Bowman, George Mumford, and Brian Johnson, three coaches whose work runs from Michael Phelps to Michael Jordan. to the Navy SEALs. Speaker 5 (0:23) Michael Phelps was told by a teacher when he was 10 years old, she brought his mother in and said, Michael will never amount to anything. He can't focus on anything. Guess what? The most focused person I've ever been around, but failed a million times. I saw every one. 20 years. Me too. More than that. And Michael was never more motivated than after he had a setback. What Speaker 4 (0:43) actually happens when the voice in your head turns on you and how three of the best in the world work with that voice? Bob through preparation, George through awareness, and Brian through ancient wisdom made practical. Three different doors into the same room. Speaker 3 (0:56) Self-talk is driven by your physiology as much as your psychology. A bad night of sleep, you tell me how your self-talk looks. If you haven't noticed, we've got two different voices in our head, and it's a moment-to-moment-to-moment choice. Which one are you feeding? Which one are you listening to? Speaker 4 (1:10) I might get coached a little along the way. I need it, so let's get into it. Speaker 1 (1:20) You start listening when you're wanting to know something. When you think you know it all, then listening becomes a little harder. then you're just thinking, do I agree with this? Don't I agree with this? Does this person have the same idea or a different idea than I have? You know, the question is, what do you really want? Speaker 1 (1:38) Because whatever you think you want, you want a car, you want a new house, you say, well, why do you want that? Speaker 1 (1:47) Well, God, it would feel great to be in that. So you want to feel great. Or I'd feel secure. So you want to feel secure. What do you want to feel secure for? Well, so I can be content or so I can be at peace. You just ask a couple of what-fors and you get down quickly to the root of I want to be happy, whatever the word you use. I want something that's basic that I wanted as a child and I still want. And if when you look in that mirror, you see the fulfillment to your thirst, then you'll know that what I gave you, he said, was pure water. Speaker 1 (2:28) If it doesn't fulfill your thirst, then you'll know that what I gave you was not pure water or that you were not really thirsty. So he said, aha, it's empirical. Speaker 1 (2:39) This isn't a philosophy to believe in. This is something I can test, I can validate within myself. Speaker 3 (2:49) Anyone have Speaker 4 (2:50) a reaction to that? Brian, I'm looking, I'm staring Speaker 3 (2:52) at you. Well, I was going to defer to these guys. I'm sitting here, you know, just so inspired to be here and to hear their wisdom. But you know what struck me? It was his joy. I watched that and I felt Joseph Campbell in his Bill Moyers interview and that effervescent. Love of life. And I see it in George. Like I listened to George's laugh. And Speaker 2 (3:11) it Speaker 3 (3:11) was like, this guy's figured it out. You watch that and you're like, he's the embodiment of it. And to me, that's philosophy, like practiced, embodied. And you feel, I call it soul force, which is, you know, Gandhi can't coin that. Martin Luther King talked about soul force in his, I have a dream speech. It's what we all have. And we're at our best and connected to our best. That's what I felt. I watched that and I'm like, you just leaning into, yes, there's the mirror for us of what. whatever you want to call it looks like of someone connected to something bigger than themselves showing up with joy. I mean that was that was the felt sense that I had watching that and obviously there's all the other philosophical things we can talk about but for me that was that was it and just sitting next to this guy right now and feeling the same energy through him and getting to know Bob and the same and yeah that was that was my experience. Speaker 4 (3:59) There's no right answer it's I just I when I saw that clip I I keep going back to this idea of the feet of the wise man. And sometimes you guys are considered the feet of the wise man because people come to you and they're looking for something out of themselves, right? And the role of a coach is not to... is not to necessarily give them something that they don't have inside of them. So Tim's work created a lot of profound, it had this sort of network effect that cascaded around the world, not just with those applying the work, but those who were teaching it as well, those who were getting into coaching. And I'd love to know, Bob, whether it's the inner game itself or this work in general, how did you arrive to this kind of work? Yeah, I actually don't know that part of your story. I kind of Speaker 5 (4:48) realized early on that, well. I probably wasn't going to be the guy who was going to be doing these great things, at least in some of these arenas. But I could be the guy that helped them do it. And when I got started, you know, I was kind of like anybody else. I was just trying this to see what would happen. And I think the thing that has kept me in it so long is that helping these young people through their journey is a lot like what he was talking about. They have everything they need inside, but I help them find it and reveal it, right? And learn how to... grow it. So I feel like that's how I connected to this kind of work. It's very satisfying outside. You know, the other stuff is great if you win a medal, fine, but that what you become in that process is by far the most important thing. Speaker 4 (5:39) Has that changed over the years as, you know, society changes, as there's more money in sports? Uh, like how Speaker 5 (5:49) does that, how does that evolve? It becomes more challenging. Anything that puts money put into it makes it more complicated, right? Yeah. And I think that, you know, when that occurred, particularly with Michael, he's the one that's probably had the most money involved in swimming. We just stayed with this. The process that we follow and the things that we believe in are the same. And then if you follow that process and you have good outcomes, then the money comes with that. And, you know, you kind of deal with it that way. But I feel like we always tried to keep the basic principles the same, regardless of any of that stuff. I do think it's harder now. And I think I've kind of, I know I've grown as a coach because, you know, I started out when my role models as coaches were these tough guys, right? You know, and I had like one tool in my toolbox, a hammer. Everything looked like a nail. That's what I did the first 10 years, right? But then you start learning, man, this only goes so far. Right. And I can't be their motivation. They have to want to do it. I can't just make them do everything. And so then started trying to add tools to my toolbox. So then I got things like logic and empathy and, you know, that positive encouragement. Guess what? They started doing really well. So, you know, I've always tried to up my. game, the mental game is by far the most important thing. If you ever go to a coach's thing, all they want to know is about is what training sets we gave them and what the reps were and all this kind of thing. And to me, that is a factor, but it's all the other things. It's the drive, the way that they go about their business, the things that they focus on. the people they become as they go through this kind of difficult process and learn to perform in these arenas, that's the ultimate reward for them and really for me. What Speaker 4 (7:36) are the things that coaches talk about, guys that have been there that see it at the highest level? What are the things that you Speaker 5 (7:42) talk Speaker 4 (7:42) about because you're trying to get better, because there's something you're wrestling with? Regardless of how many years you've been doing it, I can imagine there's something you continue to work on, right? That's why these high performers are never satisfied. It's why... the best coaches, you're never satisfied. It's always going a step further and learning more. So I would love to know just what do you guys talk about? What do you want to know from each other? Speaker 2 (8:02) I like to. I'm still. Speaker 2 (8:05) vibrating what we watched. Yeah. Okay? No words. It's just getting that felt sense of... of being here and feeling that. And this idea, and it's interesting because, you know, Greg, he could tell you what George does. He'll ask you what you want. You tell him what you want, and he tells you who you need to be to get what you want. And so it's a being thing, and so that's what I do. But it's always, and it's interesting, the inner game is so powerful, and Tim's book is... profoundly affected me, it resonated. It's like listening to that conversation. It resonates with me because there's a part of me that knows that that's the right thing. And so what I intend to do is to have people have a direct experience of realizing that they have everything they need. And there's a philosopher, his name, he's dead, but his name was Alan Watts. Yeah, of course. And he wrote a lot of books like The Wisdom of Insecurity and on and on, a lot of this kind of stuff. But he said to ask the question is to know the answer. Speaker 2 (9:15) And so what does that mean, George? That means that we ask the question, but we don't wait and we don't go inside and listen and be still. and know or be still until we know. And so that's what that young man was saying. He's saying, you know, all that noise and clutter, it's like, you know, the not to language, all that stuff. Just have a direct experience of being fully here now. And I think that's what Tim was getting at. And that's what my intention is, is I lead them. back to themselves. And how I do that is I model. being authentic. And I remember reading somewhere where they said authenticity is more important than winning. And then, of course, people talk about being sincere and that sort of thing, but it's an inside game. So you meet what you merit, so it's always about if I can lead them back inside, but I have to model the behavior, and my job is to give them a direct experience of being fully alive, fully present, and to experience their authenticity, who they are not as somebody else, but as who they are. And that's challenging because a lot of us have been, program that think that if you want to call it heaven or God, whatever, it's out there, some other place, some other time, instead of being here. and realizing everything is right here. And so it's about how to train ourselves to realize that there's a creativity and a wisdom inside of us that goes beyond all description. And we experience it. It's embodied when you see somebody in flow, what I call pure performance. It's embodied. You don't have to, you just see it, ooh. It's like I happened to be at the 98-98 championship game when... When we're playing Utah and they're winning and I'm behind the bench and I'm watching it. Being in the moment, Speaker 4 (11:12) if you coach anyone, that is the whole job. So let me ask you something. What happens to your athletes in the hours you're not with them? You've got a plan for their body. Sets, reps, rest, taper. What runs the plan for their head when you're not in the room? That's what the inner game app is and why it was built. Not just a book about it. The actual exercises, about a hundred of them and counting highly customized to the athlete, all built on Galway's method, breath work, visualization, journaling courses from Bob and George, where every idea is tied to a practical application. Most mindfulness work is down-regulating, which is necessary, but not sufficient. Calming down is not the same as being ready. If you coaches want in early, we're opening a founding coaches cohort, coaches helping shape the next version of the inner game alongside Tim and Bob, full app access, input on what we build, a private community of coaches as well. It is an application, not a sign up. Link is in the description. Now, back to George. Speaker 2 (12:11) And, you know, they're up in. All of a sudden Michael runs around comes back he strips calm alone comes down and he makes that shot and it was like poof the whole the whole Environment the whole place Utah. It was like ah, oh That was a spiritual experience. It was like just in the moment. And you can't describe what that is. You got to feel it. You can watch it on TV, but I was there and I felt it. And you can hear people. It's like, and they were really hostile. I mean, I was sitting behind a bench and they had security guards sitting next to me watching the fans because they were really hostile. And so when that happened, all that hostility, everything. It was like silence. Speaker 2 (13:01) And so how did that happen? That happened because of what we're talking about. It's like it didn't grow up a drop of play. Michael just saw in that moment he was just in flow and he was just allowing himself to express himself honestly, creatively. But all of the training and everything he's done up to that point made it possible for that. But we were losing. I mean, we're going to lose that game. And it was only game six. But he saw the moment. He just doubled back and he came down. And the interesting thing is when people look at it, if you look at it, now I'm going to be a little analytical here, but they played Utah, well, we played Utah two years in a row, 1997 and 98. And 97, we had the same. And that's the thing. People talk about the triangle offense and all that. No, they play in a... out of a format. So in that format, you can detect or you know if the team does something, you read it and you do something else. So what happened in that moment was in 97. Speaker 2 (14:09) When MJ had the ball, they decided to use John Stockton to leave Steve Kerr and double Michael. So when they did that, of course, Steve said, hey, Mike, I'm open right there. I'll make it. And Michael kicked the ball to Steve. He made the shot. That was it. So you fast forward a year later, the exact same situation. Speaker 2 (14:31) And Stockton stayed with Steve. Michael had one-on-one. And then when he went in and he made the shot, people think he was profiling. No, all the shots prior to that were short. So he had to go back to basic fundamentals, elbow in, stick it. Because the ball was going at that so that's how I read it. That's how I'm looking at it and it's all about being in a moment and and expressing yourself Authentically yourself authentically. It's like you just got beat. He's got to be Mike He's got to do what he needs to do. He didn't call timeout He stripped the ball came down didn't let them set up and he saw a situation and so Utah he bred the situation and that's what he did and that's why you can't philosophers note is not gonna help you And I'm not saying anything like that. The philosophy, what we're talking about. But the philosopher's note will train you so that when you get in that situation, you know what to do. Speaker 1 (15:27) And Speaker 2 (15:28) it's a read. And it's being in the moment. You can't be thinking about, oh, I can't miss this shot. I can't do that. You have to be fully present. But it's coming out of that silence, that stillness, called the eye of the hurricane or whatever Joseph Kenwood talks about. when the athlete is in championship form and power of myth, that he's not compelled by desire or fear. He's holding his center and just making the next play. It's not about you just go with the flow. You just got to honestly express yourself no matter what the situation is, and that's what happened. And so a lot of people won't look at it that way. They'll look at it like a different play. But when you play out of a format and a system, you get to choose, and that's space between stimulus and response. You get to choose. what you're going to do. Which is in alignment with what your goal is. The goal is to score or whatever. That's what it is. But there's so much work that goes on before that so that you could be present and not be compelled by desire or fear, but coming from that, what I would call pure performance. You're just, you know, you're being with what is as it is and being yourself authentically. And Michael was just being Michael. That's what it was. And so, When I look at it and a young man was saying, that's what you're saying. It's like, you know, you can talk about all that stuff, but ultimately it comes down to you understanding that the wise person, instead of sitting at the wise person's feet. And if you are sitting at wise person myself, I'm not telling you what to do. I'm showing you who you are. I Speaker 4 (17:08) like the thing about, you know, when you say honesty and I think. People think about honesty literally, of course, which is important and makes the world somewhat of a good place when more and more people are honest. But I think about acting, right? You think about actors. You don't have to study theater or acting, but when you go to the movies or you watch something at home or you go to a play, you know. intuitively what good acting is and what bad acting is because it comes down to honesty. It comes down to, they may be playing a part, right? That's another topic that's helpful for in-performance as Steve Kerr likes to talk about. But it's that, are they just being honest with themselves and authentic with themselves? And if they are, then it comes across and we know it as an audience, right? We know it as if we're watching MJ and... If you're there, even better, you feel it. Or, you know, if you're home and you're watching on the screen, you see somebody who's like, you know, I like that. I really, I like that performance. I don't know exactly why. It's because it was honest, right? It was honest and it was Speaker 3 (18:12) excellent. I mean, what you say so beautifully and what you say so beautifully in both of your books is MJ didn't Speaker 4 (18:17) take Speaker 3 (18:18) a day off. MJ Speaker 4 (18:19) didn't take many Speaker 3 (18:20) moments off. Moment to moment to moment to moment. He was expressing his best version of himself. And that level of all in as you would frame it up, you knew what he wanted. He wanted to be the best he could possibly be. And as a byproduct, perhaps the very best in the world at what he does. Goosebumps. And then when you live your life in integrity with that, not once in a while, not when you feel like it, but all day, every day. I mean, this is, my whole thing is, and I appreciate you are kind of framing up here. We got two icons here. You know, I'm the guy that's trying to study from them, understand how I translate it for the next generation and others that are doing our thing. But look, the ancient... you know, Greek philosophers and Stoic philosophers, if you ask them what the ultimate purpose of life was, they would say it's to experience eudaimonia. So eudaimonia means eudaimon, good soul. The Romans, as we talked before we got on here, had a word for soul or genius or daimon. They called it genius, right? So each of us has that genius, that guiding spirit within us in the ultimate game of life. is to connect with that best version of ourselves. Then you use the swimming pool, you use the basketball court, my son's into chess, you use business as a context to play the ultimate game. Be your best self moment to moment to moment. Then you ask these guys, well, how do I do that? How do I experience eudaimonia? We translate it into English weekly as happiness, but it's something closer to flourishing, being joyful, being that, what we just watched. George, when we're at our best, you feel it. Goosebumps. You can't explain it. There's something about a person living in integrity with that higher self. They're honest with their best. They're honest with the God within, whatever you want to call it. But anyway, you ask the Stoics, the Greeks, well, how do I do that? And they answer you in a single word, orate. And we translate the word as excellence or virtue, but it's basically be your best self. If you're capable of being this, and I love just how often you'd bark. Maybe it was like transition from hammer, but you're barking at them. You're capable of this. Give me more. Give me more. Give me more. When you close the gap, you live with orate, you experience. Excellence