Analysis from the Labour Party conference in Liverpool
Westminster Hour
The episode explores the atmosphere at the Labour Party conference in Liverpool following Andy Burnham's transition to Prime Minister. The d
Key takeaways
- Prime Minister Andy Burnham is signaling a move toward universal free personal care in England, potentially funded via tax adjustments.
- Tensions in Northern Ireland are rising due to protests blocking an Orange Order march through Drumcree.
Main topics
- Labour Party Conference
- Social Care Reform
Notable quotes
We've got to stop writing these people off by simply writing them a cheque.
Conclusion
The episode highlights the tension between the Labour Party's renewed
Transcript preview
Speaker 1 (0:00) Hello and welcome to this edition of the Westminster Hour, coming to you from the Labour Party conference in Liverpool, where spirits are pretty high here beside the Mersey. One of the city's sons is now Prime Minister and hope is the slogan plastered all over the conference. But can Andy Burnham deliver on the lengthy and pricey shopping list of policy commitments party members here are drawing up for him? I've been talking to Labour's rank and file and the former minister, Alan Milburn, whose report on tackling youth unemployment is about to drop on the prime minister's desk. We'll also look back 50 years to another Labour conference speech by a chancellor named Healey when economic crisis sent Britain cap in hand to the IMF for help. But first, let's meet our panel. Speaker 1 (0:48) Baroness Angela Smith, a veteran of the Blair, Brown and Starmer governments and of Labour Party conferences too. How many do you think you've... Clocked up now, Angela. It's Speaker 2 (0:58) a bit scary to think about it. I think it's well over 40, probably about 45, which is, you know, I've led a blameless life. Speaker 1 (1:07) In the new Labour era, she was the MP for Basildon, but in recent years has been an important figure on the red benches and now sits in Andy Burnham's cabinet, continuing in her role as leader of the House of Lords. How have cabinet meetings changed with Andy Burnham at the helm? Yeah, they are different. They're sort of Speaker 2 (1:24) a Speaker 1 (1:24) bit more Speaker 2 (1:24) discursive. But I think the Cabinet are working together well. It's good to see. So we've been enjoying the meetings. Speaker 1 (1:31) John Tong is next to you, Professor of Politics at Liverpool University. He holds numerous honours and awards for his work teaching, researching and writing about British and Irish politics. He's an expert on recent general elections. And Liverpool features prominently in recent Labour history, doesn't it, John? From Neil Kinnock's battle with militants in the 1980s to now one of its own sons returning here as prime minister. Speaker 3 (1:55) Yeah, it's a Labour citadel, has been for a large number of years now. And yeah, this is a Burnham fest, really. Andy Burnham returning in triumph to his hometown city. Speaker 1 (2:05) Jessica Elgert is with us as well, Deputy Political Editor of The Guardian and our Insider Guide to everything going on here in Liverpool. The drinks, receptions and bars are heaving as usual tonight. I've just been on a quick recce of my own. Ah, spirits up, Jess. Speaker 4 (2:20) It feels like it. I mean, last year, I think that there was it was a really real doom and gloom and it felt like there was a real schism in the party. And everyone is just so desperate to make this work. It feels like, you know, I don't know how long that can hold, but it's just the real feeling of like, please, let's hold it together just for this week. Speaker 1 (2:39) And for a different perspective from the Labour members gathered here, we're joined down the line by the Conservative frontbencher, Joy Morrissey. Hello, Joy. How are you? Doing well. Sorry you can't be with us, but we will be at the Conservative Party Conference next week. Joy is the MP for Beaconsfield and the Shadow Minister for Women and Equality. American-born, she had a career as an actor before taking up international development, and she also worked at the Centre for Social Justice, a think tank. Welcome all. Party conferences are a bubble, but events outside often puncture that. And as we heard in the news, the Northern Ireland Secretary... Sir Chris Bryant left here this morning to fly to Belfast to meet political leaders and call for compromise as a tense standoff continues over a planned Orange Order march through Drum Cree. Angela, you're a former Northern Ireland minister. John, you've written a lot about its politics over the years. Know it well. Let's begin briefly with your thoughts on what we're seeing this weekend. John? I Speaker 3 (3:37) think this is a very serious situation. This has the potential to collapse power sharing, which is precarious at the best of times at Stormont. Those nationalists who are blocking the Gwiafki Road at the moment, preventing the Orange Order from marching down there, they've no intention of leaving at all. And then you've got many on the Unionist side who believe that the Orange Order should have the right. Now, not all Unionists are gung-ho about the Orange Order having the right to march down there. I was at the Ulster Unionist Party conference in Belfast yesterday. Their leader, John Burroughs, just says, respect the law. He's not... that fussed about the Orange Order having the right to go down there. But the leader of the largest unionist party, the Democratic Unionist Party, Gavin Robinson, who we just heard from, he'd quite happily see Michelle O'Neill, the first minister of Northern Ireland, arrested for trying to block that road. So you see, you know, there's no real room for compromise here. Chris Bryant, the Secretary of State, has quite rightly called for cool heads to prevail. But where is the basis for compromise? And this may have to go to international mediation because it's difficult to see how else a compromise is going to be refereed. Speaker 1 (4:42) And Angela, political divisions laid bare once again. Both unionists and nationalists are furious at how this has been handled. Speaker 2 (4:48) Yeah, and I think sometimes we forget how bad things have been in Northern Ireland in the past. We've taken too much for granted. And we see events like we've seen today on TV. Those events are being seen around the world. And what Northern Ireland has been good at in the last few years is getting investment in to create jobs, to improve the economy. I was talking to somebody earlier today who represents business communities in Northern Ireland. And he said, I had a call from Tokyo today. This has an impact on jobs in Northern Ireland and how people live their lives. So I think Chris Bryant's absolutely right to talk to people to say, let's try and find a way through. But I just would appeal to think, how is this appealing to people around the world? and people across Northern Ireland who don't want to see this, who want to live in a peaceful community, who want people to work together. But I agree with John, I don't know where the compromise is. And that's where Chris Myhans and the other ministers like Ruth Anderson have got their work really cut out to try and get people to sit down and talk. I gather Chris has spoken to all the political parties today, he's had meetings today. And he will be doing everything he possibly can. Speaker 1 (5:52) Let's return to events here at the conference because the Prime Minister kicked the week off, as is traditional, being interviewed by Laura Koonsberg. And he made a pretty major policy announcement. The details are still sketchy, but the direction of travel on social care was clear. A universal system of free personal care in England to work on NHS principles, which will be put to voters at the next general election. Jess, a surprise? I mean, territory too that's proved... hazardous for past prime ministers? I Speaker 4 (6:20) mean, this has been Labour Party policy for quite a long time. The problem is no one's ever believed that they were ever going to do it because the path is so fraught when it comes to this reform of social care. And Andy Burnham, you know, says that he wants to take on these arguments, death tax, dementia tax, whatever you want to call it. And, you know, we've seen this be a government killer and kill parties' re-election chances when it comes to trying to reform social care. I was talking to a cabinet minister earlier about whether they felt like there was a similar risk this time around. And they said, you know, the difference that they... feel is that if there is not going to be another election for sort of, you know, two and a half years, you've got much longer to kind of prosecute the argument, the danger that with Theresa May, when she tried to do the big reforms in the election campaign, when she had to try and make the arguments in six weeks, and it's so easy to get overwhelmed by the opposition arguments to it. Whereas this time, if you try and lay the groundwork saying everyone's going to have to contribute, maybe you come up with whatever that might be, whether it's scrapping the triple lock or whether that's, you know, it's a penny on national insurance. You've got time to... make the argument to kind of embed it and tell people the reasons why you're doing it. Speaker 1 (7:28) Joy, the Conservatives have already rubbished it, given it the thumbs down. Why do you think this crisis can be ducked again? Speaker 8 (7:36) Well, I mean, I first stood as an MP in the 2017 election. I remember firsthand taking a marginal Labour seat and turning it into a safe Labour seat over the dementia tax. So, you know, I think... It's going to be a tough one to sell to the country, given how much how high the tax burden is right now. And if there's a way that he can cut other expenditures so that we can, you know, the tax burden doesn't go up. Great. But I seriously doubt, you know, it's projected to be about 18 billion pounds of extra cost. Where are you going to find that savings with the extra tax burden for the end of this parliament? It's set to be about 240 billion pounds. as of now. So I don't think we can handle any more tax coming on to working people. So if he can find a way to cut other expenditure, wonderful. But I think he is going to struggle otherwise. But Speaker 1 (8:27) your party did have a plan once upon a time to put an £86,000 cap on care costs paid for a rise in national insurance. But that idea was dropped by Rishi Sunak. What's your plan now? Speaker 8 (8:39) Well, I think, I mean, this is one of the most difficult challenges facing us in the future. We have an aging population. We don't have enough people contributing to the welfare state. And so we do need to find a way to, I think, get young people working again and make sure that we are generating the workers and the tax for the future, because right now it's unsustainable. But Speaker 1 (8:59) do you accept the principle that the costs, huge costs that some people will face should be shared by everyone? Speaker 1 (9:07) Well, Speaker 8 (9:07) we are doing detailed work right now to find a costed plan, but we are committed to not raising taxes. And so if there is a way that he can cut other expenditure, we are very willing to hear that. But we want to make sure that the taxpayer is not overly burdened with additional costs when actually the cost of living is quite high right now. Angela, it's a risky strategy, isn't it? Vote Speaker 1 (9:29) for us and we'll put your taxes up. Speaker 2 (9:31) It's a risky strategy to do nothing about something that's affecting almost every family in the country. And if you talk to most people, they will know somebody, have a family member, be worried about themselves, of the cost of social care going forward. And at the moment, it is costing a fortune. People are paying, I've talked to somebody recently, it's paying something like £1,500 a week for care for their parents, each individually. And when that money runs out and all their savings are gone or they've sold their home, then that bill transfers to the local authority. So at the moment, billions is being spent, but everybody's worried about it. Now, if we're going to give people dignity in care, we can't keep ducking this issue. We've got to sit down and talk about it. So we're starting the conversation. I think Andy is passionate about this, but I just know so many people are worried about what comes next as they and their family get older. Speaker 1 (10:25) And what's your sense of how it should be paid for? Because that has always been the great stumbling block. It is. Is it a rise in income tax? Is it a hypothecated tax? Louise Casey's doing the work, but what would your preference be? Well, Speaker 2 (10:37) I'm not going to sort of give answers off the cuff. That's always been the problem. People trying to find quick answers. We've got to look into this in detail. We've got Louise Casey's report coming out. Andy will say more about it in his speech on Tuesday. And there has to be a national conversation. At the moment, we are going to clog up the National Health Service. We're not going to be able to deal with the National Health Service if we want to because so many people who need social care will be in hospital. People are paying billions at the moment. Families' savings are being wiped out and then the state takes over. This is not a good situation. And what we've got to look at is what kind of care do we want for our population as they get older? Speaker 2 (11:15) I don't think we can put this in the too difficult box. We're not going to do anything because it might be increasing taxes. Let's sensibly sit down and talk about it. Do you think Speaker 1 (11:23) that is going to produce results? I mean, Andy Burnham talks, doesn't he, John, about working cross-party. I think there's been one meeting so far between the parties. Speaker 3 (11:33) Well, Kerry Bainlock has said that she will cooperate, but he has to cut the welfare bill. for that cooperation to be forthcoming. But I think Andy Burnham's in deep here anyway. It's almost inconceivable that he would try and renege on this now. It tends to be forgotten that actually Andy Burnham, when he was Secretary of State for Health, did introduce a national care bill, but Labour lost office soon afterwards. So he was already committed. Obviously, the recent death of his father from Alzheimer's, he's often referred to that. So that's, if you like, the latest catalyst, but he's committed to it anyway. And I think he's actually acted pretty smartly. by saying, you know, we will wait for the Baroness Casey review. So that does give time. I'm not clear why he