The Lotus Eaters Episode 9: An Ode to Argos [unlocked]

Very Bad Wizards

In this episode of The Lotus Eaters, the hosts analyze Books 17 and 18 of Homer's Odyssey. They explore Odysseus' return to Ithaca disguised

Key takeaways

• The reunion with Argos serves as a pure moment of perception that cuts through Odysseus' layers of deception.
• Argos can be viewed as a symbol for Ithaca itself, representing a kingdom wasting away from neglect.

Main topics

• Odysseus' return to Ithaca
• The death of Argos

Notable quotes

Argos... represented Ithaca. It was this thing that's kind of wasting away from neglect.

Conclusion

The episode provides a deep thematic analysis of character testing and

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) Dear listeners, thank you for joining us on our voyage into Homer's Odyssey. You're listening to The Lotus Eaters, a 12-part series on Homer's Odyssey that was funded by our generous supporters over at patreon.com. It's because of that support that we're able to release this series for everyone. If you'd like to join them in supporting us, please head over to patreon.com slash verybadwizards. One of the benefits will be that you'd get access to all of The Lotus Eaters at once rather than having to wait every week for a new episode. Speaker 1 (0:42) Welcome Speaker 2 (1:24) to another episode of The Lotus Eaters. The Lotus Eaters. So we are going to talk about books 17 and 18. Odysseus goes to town, seizes dog. gets into his palace, begs for food, stools are flying everywhere. These are fun and fascinating books leading up to what I think is the best book in all of the Odyssey book 19. But I love these two. What did you think of them? Speaker 1 (1:55) I loved them. I mean, I've been enjoying reading every book, but this time I was sad to be finishing up the second book. Like I was like, oh, come on, like just a little more, make this one longer. But yeah, I didn't know that the footstool was like the weapon of choice in the Bronze Age, apparently. Speaker 2 (2:11) Yeah. Did any thematic ideas, did anything jump out at you about kind of what's going on? Speaker 1 (2:18) Yeah. I mean, the biggest thing for me is the self-control and patience that has to be demonstrated by Odysseus and Telemachus, where, you know, they're formulating a plan and they're constantly being tested. And they have to just exert this, what I imagine is a tremendous amount of will to not do the thing that they are really tempted to do. And that just more broadly is a sign of the mark of their character. And throughout, this really feels like these scenes back at Odysseus's palace are, it's like a big lab where you're testing out people's morality. And some people pass, some people fail miserably. Yeah. And Speaker 2 (3:02) even like the, just the deception, you Speaker 1 (3:05) know, it's like required. It seems to be like a lot, you know, having to lie to your mom and to your favorite slave. The worst. Speaker 2 (3:14) example is when he sees his dog Argos and he has a tears like coming out. Like you should have warned me Speaker 1 (3:22) about this. Speaker 2 (3:24) Like everyone has to experience that fresh for the first time. God, Speaker 1 (3:28) man. I was like literally tearing up. Speaker 2 (3:31) It's horrible. I had to go down and like I was reading up here and I had to go down and hug Trixie like immediately afterwards. Speaker 1 (3:38) But sorry, say you were saying that as an example of. of just he Speaker 2 (3:41) had to keep him like he couldn't just go over and hug his dog he had to just keep walking you know because that would have revealed him to eumaeus and for some reason he doesn't want you to know still so dumb go hug your flea-ridden like Speaker 1 (3:56) manure Speaker 2 (3:57) bedside dog Although you see, because Melanthio, the goat herd, is out there, he's got to keep it under control, even setting aside Eumaeus. And Speaker 1 (4:08) they had a moment, and it's like the purest moment, because there's all this deception that has to happen, these layers of deception in order to test people, to make sure they're on your side, to not foil the plans for revenge. And with Argos, it's just a pure moment of perception. that cuts straight through. He knows exactly who Odysseus is. Odysseus knows who he is and that's all that's required. And like the dog, Argos can die after that. Yeah. Speaker 2 (4:36) It's Speaker 1 (4:37) a Speaker 2 (4:37) beautiful thing. It's beautiful and heartbreaking. I mean, Argos, I think, you know, we get the story of him too before he dies of how this happened. You hear how like it was okay at first and then just kind of everyone slowly started to abandon him. I had a student write that Argos kind of represented Ithaca. It was this thing that's kind of wasting away from neglect and nobody kind of stepping up to do anything about it. And I think that's plausible to some degree. Speaker 1 (5:09) And when you come to Ithaca, not if, but when you come to Ithaca, we can go have a drink at the Argos Inn. Nice. Which has a nice bar. Oh, that'll be fun. Speaker 2 (5:18) Yeah. Speaker 1 (5:18) Yeah. So in the Speaker 2 (5:19) last few books, we've been talking about this idea that there's kind of a parallel intra-psychic journey that Odysseus is taking. And there's some grist for that in these two books, I think. You know, there's a lot of things that he says about his character that also seem to apply very well to him. But then this time, I also had the vibes of Ithaca being kind of haunted by Odysseus, like he's a ghost or something Speaker 1 (5:46) that's Speaker 2 (5:46) come to kind of haunt the suitors. And you can see, like, the good suitor, Amphimus or whatever, he's starting to feel bad, and everyone's starting to get a little, like, maybe worried about what it is they're doing. I got some, like, Speaker 1 (6:00) High Plains Drifter. vibe from this you know like he's Speaker 2 (6:04) kind of making them dig their own graves the suitors you know by like making them show their true colors and it's funny because like i love high plains drifter and that's a story about a man coming to like it's like a ghost to haunt this town that betrayed probably him or you know like a relative of his but you know that's played by clint eastwood he's like the baddest motherfucker in like a just an absolute like no account town from the get go. But what's interesting about this is Odysseus is a beggar. And so like he is both at the same time thought of as weak and pathetic and someone to hurl stools at or to like, you know, get into like a cock fight with another beggar. It's Speaker 1 (6:44) like the first bum fights like ever. Do you remember there were like bum fights where they would actually like. Oh Speaker 2 (6:49) yeah. Yeah. And like the thirties, right? Speaker 1 (6:52) No, no, no. I'm talking about like in the like early two thousands, it was terrible. Like people would pay. Like homeless people to fight each other and record it. Oh, yeah. You could like buy, you know, like shitty DVDs of like bum fights. Speaker 2 (7:04) Yeah. So anyway, the point is like he might be the ghost, but he's also being haunted himself, it seems like. And so like that interested me this time around. But lastly, I think we've reached the big interpretive question that I can finally ask you, although I don't think you should give any like. major judgment about it until book 19 and then book 23 will also weigh into it but i think we have enough here for me to pose the question so let me just ask you first and i don't want to sway you but i also don't want to be coy so here it is do you think penelope by the time we get to the end of these two books has recognized odysseus already um Speaker 1 (7:50) Without you asking that question, I would have said no. Like the text seems like no. But now that you say that, like, I think I was toward the end when she wants to go show herself all prettied up. Like I was thinking, like, if Odysseus was there, this would be something that she would do. But think about that. If Speaker 2 (8:11) she thought Odysseus was there, right? Why would she say, hey, all right, Odysseus told me to marry someone. If he didn't come home, I'm ready to do that. Right. But what's interesting about that scene, and maybe we should just wait to get to it, is Odysseus loves to hear her say that. He Speaker 1 (8:28) was Speaker 2 (8:28) very pleased. So I guess where I stand on this question is she has, and that probably Odysseus already knows that. Even though like they've yet to talk, that's in book 19 where they're like what I think is just absolutely just fascinating conversation. But I think there's a bunch of things that make a lot more sense if you think she at least has a strong suspicion that he's back. Speaker 1 (8:53) Yeah, I have no problem with that interpretation. I think it actually fits very well. It's obviously underdefined with the literal words of the text. But that makes sense. Like it would be otherwise it would be a coincidence that she says the thing about the gifts and he loves it. I mean, it could be that he's just happy that she's wise. Like if he had really said, OK, if like, you know, by the time my son grows a beard, you should pick someone to marry. Then like she should be milking it for all it's worth. And maybe that's the moment where she's like, fuck it. I got to do this. Speaker 2 (9:23) Yeah. Speaker 1 (9:23) But it fits well with like your thing about like Odysseus being a ghost that's haunted. It seems as if he's loomed large in everybody's mind, even though they somehow ignored what was going on in Ithaca. And now that he's back, the amount of times that people feel the need to say, well, he's long dead. It's just like protesting too much. That's right. And I really like the idea of only his dog and his wife. But Speaker 2 (9:48) yeah, there's a bunch of things. So let me just list a few of them. So first of all, we know he can be recognized because Argos recognized him. Second. Penelope is told by our friend from the early books, or maybe it's 15, you know, the guy on the run. Speaker 1 (10:07) They're like the prophet. Yeah. Yeah. He's a prophet murderer. Speaker 2 (10:12) Yeah. He tells Penelope, I telling you, I had a prophecy. He is on this island right now. And so that's like in her mind as she kind of overhears what's going on. And when she hears what is going on downstairs, she says to call the stranger to come see her. And he says, yeah, Eumaeus, have the stranger come to me so I may welcome him. Ask if he has heard or witnessed anything about long lost Odysseus. Now, again, you could read this as she does that because she just wants to hear something good. Right. But then she says, if Odysseus came back to his own native land, he and his son will soon take vengeance for their violence. And then Telemachus sneezes and the noise. resounds through the hall and she starts just laughing and she says call the stranger my son just sneezed at what i said you heard it's a sign of death for all the suitors no one can save them from their ruin now and she's like giddy at this point like she has not acted like this at any point and she's always just oh i'm gonna go and i'm gonna cry and i'm gonna just i stain my bed with tears but now she's just laughing she's actually laughing i i think she's, you know, if it's more subliminal than like explicit, maybe, but this like in book 18, where she does that, like a plot may be in motion on her end as well. Speaker 1 (11:32) Yeah, maybe. It's interesting because I think it's a decent read to say that she both believes it and doesn't. Hope is growing and so she might start planning. Because she repeatedly also says, no, I lost my looks the day that he left. And she does appear to be also dejected. But you're right that she does have that moment of optimism, or at least of joy, where maybe she's starting to suspect. Maybe even when he turns her down, like when he says, no, I can't see her tonight. Yeah. Speaker 2 (12:01) Like she seems to understand. Like, I honestly think, I know I'm kind of deep into this. I think they're like sending messages to each other at that point already. Speaker 1 (12:09) Like blinking in Greek Morse code. Yeah. It's like, you know, like a wife knows her husband's voice. Yeah. Well, I mean, there's a lot that you have to sort of like, you're trusting that Athena has masked him properly, but it's not like beyond Athena to make him. you know knowable to his wife should she open her heart to the possibility that this is him and Speaker 2 (12:33) to be clear i actually don't think athena knows this well Speaker 1 (12:38) again what do the gods know so well we know that Speaker 2 (12:42) they don't know everything about no i know but we also Speaker 1 (12:45) know that they like weirdly do know a lot like if they want to yeah but Speaker 2 (12:49) yeah Speaker 1 (12:50) i think that's totally plausible we'll Speaker 2 (12:52) see you know that there's a big scene between the two of them next book so where I think the best case that you can make for the recognition comes there. But then there's something that comes later that, you know,