The Lotus Eaters Episode 7: Lying Odysseus [unlocked]

Very Bad Wizards

In this episode of 'The Lotus Eaters,' Tamler and David delve into Books 13 and 14 of Homer's Odyssey, focusing on Odysseus's arrival in Ithaca, his reunion with Athena,

Key takeaways

• Athena and Odysseus collaborate as equals, with Athena appreciating his cunning and deceptive skills.
• The episode highlights theological questions about divine justice—why do virtuous people like the Phaeacians suffer despite their hospitality?

Main topics

• Odysseus's return to Ithaca
• Athena and Odysseus's strategic partnership

Notable quotes

"You're like almost like equals... She gets off on his ability to like be a trickster and deceive."

"It's not a contract with god that if you're good, everything will work out."

Conclusion

As Odysseus begins his plan for revenge in Ithaca through disguise and deception, the episode underscores the

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) Dear listeners, thank you for joining us on our voyage into Homer's Odyssey. You're listening to The Lotus Eaters, a 12-part series on Homer's Odyssey that was funded by our generous supporters over at patreon.com. It's because of that support that we're able to release this series for everyone. If you'd like to join them in supporting us, please head over to patreon.com slash verybadwizards. One of the benefits will be that you'd get access to all of The Lotus Eaters at once rather than having to wait every week for a new episode. episode to drop, but you'd also get access to hundreds of hours of other bonus content and Zeus would smile down upon you for your generosity in supporting us. So thank you for listening. Let's get to the episode. Speaker 1 (1:25) Welcome to another episode of The Lotus Eaters. The Lotus Eaters. We are going to be discussing books 13 and 14 of Homer's Odyssey for this episode. We are back on Ithaca. It is the second half of the book. Yeah, it's a little sleepier. You know, the pace has slowed down quite a bit since the last four books where the pace was just galloping with all his adventures. Speaker 2 (1:54) Totally. Totally. It's more a little reflective. We needed it. Can't, you know, can't maintain that hectic pace. Speaker 1 (2:02) Yeah, it's a slow burn now until we get to what we think is inevitable, Odysseus slaughtering the suitors. But what did you, we haven't talked about this at all. What did you think of these two books? What's your impression of kind of what's going on in the books? Speaker 2 (2:20) And I... I mean, I really enjoyed them. It feels like this little slow plotting before the plan comes together. And Athena and Odysseus together in book 13 kind of like... They're like almost like equals, you know, like, all right, let's let's do it this way. Here's what we're going to do. She's she gets off on his ability to like be a trickster and deceive. And so she's like glad that he can. And she's like, all right. Yeah, that's my boy. Let's do it this way then. And so I like that. There's also in book 13 something that I appreciate a lot, which is there are hints of like theodicy. Like, why did you let this happen? How could you? being able, like presumably being able to like control some of these things and knowing some of these things, like you couldn't even let my son know, like you're just letting him go off. How come this has happened to me? It had little hints of Job in that way. Speaker 1 (3:19) Yeah, yeah, for sure. And just, yeah, he's quite suspicious and legitimately so, like 10 years. Like he's been delayed. He's supposed to have Athena on his side. And where has she been all this time? She's like ghosting him until he arrives on the Phaeacian island. And then she helps him out a little bit, but not as much as Nausicaa. Speaker 2 (3:45) Yeah. And the other thing that reminds me of Job is Poseidon goes to Zeus and is like, what the fuck with your boy? Like, you're going to just let him like do what he wants. And Zeus is like. Speaker 1 (3:55) no, Speaker 2 (3:55) no, no, like, go ahead, do whatever you want. Like, we're not going to get in your way, which is very much like the adversary in the book of Job when he comes up to God and says like, hey, that's your boy. Like, but he's, you know, he's only your boy because you're favoring him. God's Speaker 1 (4:10) like, all right, do your thing. Like, do whatever you want. I don't think that analogy holds in this particular case. But what... Poseidon is mad about isn't Odysseus, and he can't take anything more out on Odysseus. Like, Odysseus has gone to Ithaca. He has all the treasure. What he's mad about are the Phaeacians, the fact that they disrespected him. And what Zeus says isn't, you can do what you want to Odysseus. It's, you can do what you want to the... Yes, punish them as you wish. Speaker 2 (4:40) Yeah. Yeah. It's more structurally like the God going to the other God saying like, you're letting them get away with this. Like, and it's not, it really, yeah. In Job, it's not like he's feeling disrespected. He's more just being like, are you sure this is, but like, yeah, this is disrespected. But Zeus kind of has to give his like approval. Yeah. I'm not, yeah. To like, go ahead, do, do what you want, which is different than, than the way Zeus is talked about. Speaker 1 (5:06) you know, by like the religious people who Speaker 2 (5:08) were like Zeus, go, you know, all loving and wise and caring of the stranger. Yeah, Speaker 1 (5:13) exactly. Which is especially striking given that he is the god of hospitality and the Phaeacians were as hospitable as you could ask for to Odysseus. They did all the right things. They fed him before asking who he was. You know, they had to get like jogged into it by one of the elders, but they did everything. And then helping him get back home. which is fated. So it's like, I had that same thought. Everyone is always talking about, like Eumaeus in book 14 talks about how the gods are always, they care deeply about justice. And I think throughout, and this is the theodicy thing, you're always asking, well, do they though? You know, like, do Speaker 2 (5:52) they really? It's a simple view that it is always rewarded to be virtuous in this way. The people who are hospitable get like shit on the most. And that's just, That's just, again, like the human condition. And that forces you or one or me at least to think if it weren't kind of risky to be hospitable to every single person, it wouldn't really be that virtuous. And like there is a courage in being willing to show hospitality. And not that that's the thought that these characters are having, but certainly a lesson that is learned. Like the Fashions got paid pretty poorly for their hospitality. like it's just not a con it's not a contract with god that if you're good um everything will work out Speaker 1 (6:38) yes totally agree if i had to defend poseidon which i am not want to do but if i had to i i would say look the phaesians heard the story of Odysseus saying he blinded Poseidon's son and they put this curse on him. And Poseidon's like their guardian God. They're like their ancestors. And yet they still like, you know, give him a heap of treasure. And one of the things Poseidon says is if you come home and she'll be with no honor and empty handed. And so they, they did kind of fuck him over, I would say. So I think like, I think Poseidon has, is, Reminds me a little of like Tommy from Goodfellas or like a lot of the Sopranos like kind of heads, but they weren't really the head guy. They were, but they are someone that like feels like they have power, but they also have a huge chip on their shoulder and they feel disrespected. And that's, I think what Poseidon is. It's almost like the Phaeacians. kind of took advantage of that or they were a little complacent about what they could get away with with Poseidon and Zeus is balancing a lot of things. Like, I don't think he gives a shit about Poseidon's beef with Odysseus, but, you know, like... Poseidon does have to show face to the rest of the gods. He does have to prove that he's not a laughingstock. So I kind of think Zeus is being a little diplomatic here, too. He's being like, OK, don't kill all of them, but maybe turn this ship to stone and then maybe put a mountain around them. Yeah. It's Speaker 2 (8:13) like an embargo. It's like political sanctions. Yeah, Speaker 1 (8:16) exactly. Like what we're doing to Cuba right now. Exactly. Speaker 2 (8:21) So, yeah. First of all, I like your Poseidon's advocate. Speaker 1 (8:26) Well, you know, I've always had exactly your reaction and still do, but it is like kind of disrespectful. Speaker 2 (8:33) Yeah, no, you're right. Because it's one thing to, you know, the way that the like Xenia is like from my understanding from the book carried out is like, okay, stranger comes, you do everything that you can to help them out. And then you listen to their story. But it's not a guarantee that once you tell them the story, that they don't have to keep being on your side. If they're like, yeah, I wiped out your entire lineage, then they can do whatever they want, right? So they're going a little bit above and beyond in a way that Poseidon, you're right, is justified in taking it personally. And Zeus, this is what I never quite get. My grade school mythology is that Zeus is the high god. So is Zeus just, is there the hierarchy where Zeus really is at the top at this point in the mythology? Or is it just like his domain is different? Speaker 1 (9:30) He's the top. guy Speaker 2 (9:32) you Speaker 1 (9:32) know yeah there's the olympian gods uh but zeus he has the power poseidon is 1a though supposedly and so someone like athena is a little lower uh apollo is a little lower you know uh so so of the olympian gods he's definitely the top but he has to keep people happy. I mean, there really is like a like a king or a family or a politician or he has to make like there's a lot of politics that are delicate to navigate. And with someone like Poseidon, who is so sensitive and about being disrespected, that's why I think it's like the Tommy thing is what comes to mind. They all like him. But they also get that he has this chip on his shoulder and everyone else is going to have to deal with the fallout from that, you know? And so they want to minimize it as much as possible. Speaker 2 (10:28) Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to sense what, whether Zeus is like, all right, whatever, do what you have to do or whether he's actually being indifferent. Like, Hey, Speaker 1 (10:37) that's fine. Like, I don't like, I'm not saying you can't do that. You know? This read-through, I got the sense that he is trying to do the best he can for the Phaeacians. Like, he is giving the lowest plea bargain that he can envision that would still... satisfy Poseidon. And remember, like, immediately they all realize what's happening, the Phaeacians, like, oh, that prophecy was true, which, you know, arguably they should have deciphered before, given what Odysseus said. And then they immediately start sacrificing. So it's not even clear that Poseidon is going to put the mountains. around the island will never know. Like, I don't know why it matters that much or why they would care, but because they never leave anyway. Right. But yeah, so I think like Zeus is trying to, he's having his client plead guilty, but, you know, trying to get him off with a light sentence. That's how I read it this time. Speaker 2 (11:33) And now that you say that, like it makes more sense to me. Like, I guess I hadn't thought of it that much. We're like, Once they find out that he did that to the Cyclops, once the Phaeacians find out that Odysseus did that to Cyclops, they should be loyal to Poseidon. And this is part of Odysseus' charm. And he just won them over with his character, wits, charm, everything that we know Odysseus is good at. So that might make Poseidon extra salty. Speaker 2 (12:10) They weren't Speaker 1 (12:11) able to see through this. I can see that they're being disloyal. Speaker 2 (12:16) I Speaker 1 (12:16) also don't, you don't get the sense from them that they really. care that much about poseidon in particular though like yeah it seems more of a one-sided kind of yes ancestors yes you know the cyclops but i think they had some bad uh interactions with the cyclops so it's no skin off their nose if a cyclops dies you're right though they were seduced by odysseus's story and just go like as an extra insult just pile his ship with treasure Yeah. Speaker 2 (12:45) And maybe that's why he had to go to the queen first. Maybe that was the wisdom of like, you know, flirting with the queen a little bit. Yeah. Since she holds the power. She Speaker 1 (12:54) holds the power. Yeah. And like you could see that in some, you know, there's very little, if any, other like ancient sources where the Phaeacians play a role. So maybe it did put the mountain around it. But like I could see like Alcinous being in a like a Poseidon role. Like if you did like a little kind of spinoff series on the Speaker 2 (13:16) Phaeacians. One Speaker 1 (13:18) thing I wanted to bring up, which is I might have a different reaction to these books than you do, is about where Odysseus is. I see book 13 as a point where Odysseus is a little broken down. Like he is, you know, the main thing that made me think that initially is just he has this like paranoid freak out, this like tantrum when he wakes up and there's a little mist on and he just immediately assumes that the Phaeacians like ripped him off. Just completely like, yeah, deeply paranoid shit there. And then so number one. And then. All these lies that he's telling to Athena, to Eumaeus, it's not totally clear what the strategy is to me. So I guess it's more complicated than this. But the way I would kind of summarize like in broadest strokes is that he's broken down right now. He doesn't know who he