The Lotus Eaters Episode 10: Like-Minded [unlocked]

Very Bad Wizards

The hosts perform a deep dive into Book 19 of Homer's Odyssey, focusing on the high-stakes psychological reunion between the disguised Odyss

Key takeaways

• Penelope and Odysseus are portrayed as intellectual equals, sharing a 'like-minded' nature characterized by deception and strategy.
• The hosts argue that Penelope likely recognizes Odysseus but maintains a facade of ignorance to protect him from the suitors.

Main topics

• Book 19 of The Odyssey
• Penelope and Odysseus's reunion

Notable quotes

His lies were like the truth.

Conclusion

A compelling analysis of character motivation and strategic communicat

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) Dear listeners, thank you for joining us on our voyage into Homer's Odyssey. You're listening to The Lotus Eaters, a 12-part series on Homer's Odyssey that was funded by our generous supporters over at patreon.com. It's because of that support that we're able to release this series for everyone. If you'd like to join them in supporting us, please head over to patreon.com slash verybadwizards. One of the benefits will be that you'd get access to all of The Lotus Eaters at once rather than having to wait every week for a new episode. episode to drop, but you'd also get access to hundreds of hours of other bonus content and Zeus would smile down upon you for your generosity in supporting us. So thank you for listening. Let's get to the episode. Speaker 2 (1:24) Welcome to another episode of The Lotus Eaters. The Speaker 1 (1:28) Lotus Eaters. Speaker 2 (1:29) So we are right now at book 19, and normally we would do book 19 and 20, but there is so much going on in book 19 that we have decided to devote an entire episode to this book. Fascinating on like 10 different levels. This is where Odysseus and... Penelope meet and Penelope interviews Odysseus. She tells about her dream. She sets up a contest that will be, spoiler alert, relevant in the battle to come. And Eurycleia Speaker 1 (2:13) washes Odysseus' feet, among other things. Speaker 2 (2:16) There's so much going on that I think this definitely warrants its own episode. Speaker 1 (2:20) Yeah, yeah. I read it and I agreed. So themes of Speaker 2 (2:25) the episode. There's obviously a big question that I want to talk about, but themes that involve that or don't involve that, that you want to highlight as we go forward? Speaker 1 (2:35) Yeah, there was a couple that stood out. I mean, there's a lot, but there's a couple that I wanted to explicitly mention. One is. Penelope and Odysseus are very similar in character. They're like little mirror images of themselves in terms of their cunning nature, their intelligence, and their scheming and all that. And you really see when it's juxtaposed like this, you really actually see it, which Speaker 2 (2:58) is nice. Speaker 1 (2:59) Penelope's awesome, like you said, all along. Speaker 2 (3:01) She is awesome. And yeah, they don't say things without calculating like what the impact of this will be, what they're very instrumental in some sense with speech. Yep. And like good with Speaker 1 (3:15) deception. Yeah. The other thing that was just like kind of a, I don't even know if it's a theme other than a cool sort of like. thing that I thought about given the events. And that is Odysseus's scar being the thing that has continuity across all of his identities. Like there's this sense that I got when he tells that childhood story that like, it's a mark of who he is, what his character is. You know, he was the one to attack the boar that was about to attack them. He's like, has this bravery that I assume was in his childhood or in his teen years. And he has been so many different people throughout his life and in the events of this book that the recognition through that scar was just like, I don't know, something cool about identity over time, something cool about his character or something. Speaker 2 (4:06) Yeah. It's like the one thread that ties him together from when he was born to where he is now disguised as a beggar trying to recapture his own home. And I think that's a nice way to think about that. That whole story is kind of interesting. We learn in that story, like, how he got his name. Yeah. His grandfather named him that because, like, he's like, a lot of people don't like me and I don't like them. So we'll name him Odysseus. Speaker 1 (4:37) So funny. Like, what does Odysseus mean then? Because now it just means Odyssey. Speaker 2 (4:43) Yeah, now it just means the Odyssey. Yeah, you know, I guess I had kind of assumed, like, you're going to have to, like, run away from people. Speaker 1 (4:51) Wait, you know, there might be a common root to the word for hate in Spanish, which is odio, O-D-I-O. Speaker 2 (4:58) Yeah. Speaker 1 (4:59) And so it might be that that comes from all the way back there. Like, I hate you, you hate me. Let's name him Odysseus. Speaker 2 (5:05) Okay. I just like Googling it, anger man. So it could be like hate man or son of pain. Huh. Yeah. It's so funny because now it just means an odyssey, like a quest. But yes, that's not what it meant to them, obviously. It means to hate or to be angry at. Speaker 1 (5:25) Oh, so yeah, it is like odious. Odious. Speaker 2 (5:29) Odious. That's so funny. I feel like I should have known Speaker 1 (5:32) that. Yeah. Speaker 2 (5:33) Can Speaker 1 (5:34) you imagine someone names his kid Hater and then just like years later, Hater means like going on a journey. Speaker 2 (5:41) Well, that's kind of best case scenario if you're going to get hit or probably. Say, Speaker 1 (5:46) oh, no, he's a great traveler. Speaker 2 (5:48) Yeah, that's good. I would say in addition to, you know, like what I'm about to launch into, which is that Penelope has recognized Odysseus. Separate from that, there is something very beautiful, as you said, about their like-mindedness. And, you know, you don't see this that often in these ancient stories. Like two real equals. Like these are peers. This is a good marriage that got... interrupted for 20 years for various reasons leading to this situation. And yet through all of that, they are right for each other, you know? And, you know, there's this line from earlier back in book six when Odysseus is washed up on the Phaeacian island and Nausicaa has found him and... He says to her, so may the God grant all your heart's desires, a home, a husband, somebody like-minded. For nothing can be better than when two live in one house, their minds in harmony, husband and wife, their enemies are jealous, their friends delighted, and they have great honor. which I believe I mentioned back at the, when we did that, is my brother just got married and they had that reading at the wedding. But I think this was foreshadowing what's to come with Penelope and Odysseus. Like that's what he had, but they don't live in one house yet, you know? Their minds are in harmony, but they need to get back to where two live in one house and their enemies are jealous. Speaker 1 (7:26) Yeah, Speaker 2 (7:26) it Speaker 1 (7:26) does seem weird that like a story this old has such like equals in a partnership. And it does seem almost like just the prototype of husband and wife. Speaker 2 (7:35) Yeah. Speaker 1 (7:36) Totally. And, you Speaker 2 (7:37) know, it's weird, like this story, and sorry to all the people in the Manosphere out there that are going to get pissed about this, but like the women are strong, you know, like Helen and Menelaus. Helen holds her own against Menelaus, that's for sure, in the Odyssey. You get Arte, who's clearly like the one with all the power in the Phaeacian Island, and it's Alcinoas who has to kind of pretend that he's still the boss. But for some reason, Arte is the one that you go to if you really need to get something done. done. And, you know, of course, Athena, Circe, Calypso, like women are just kind of strong in this story, you know, more than the Iliad, more than a lot of ancient texts. And that's just kind of an interesting fact. Speaker 1 (8:19) Yeah, that's totally true. When you list them all out like that, it's like, oh yeah, this is like a female empowerment. It is. You know, people are Speaker 2 (8:27) going to think it's like the Emily Wilson translation or whatever. It's all the translations, like, and the actual text. There's Speaker 1 (8:33) some Speaker 2 (8:33) basic facts about it. the Speaker 1 (8:35) story. Speaker 2 (8:35) Okay. So let me get, and I don't want to make too big a deal out of this, but I do feel like if you want to understand what's going on in this scene, there's a real question, which I brought up last time as to whether Penelope has recognized him. or not. And I just want to put out exactly what I think is going on. And so what I would ask people to do is just consider reading or rereading book 19 with this lens, just a few premises about Penelope's mindset, Odysseus's mindset. And then if you take these premises, you take the fact that she has recognized him. as, you know, what's happened, I think a lot of the events of book 19 make more sense. So first for background, and then none of this is controversial. We talked about it all in last episode. We know that Penelope got in kind of a weirdly good mood at the end of book 17 after she heard Odysseus downstairs, not necessarily knowing she's Odysseus. And this happens after that prophet murderer that Telemachus picked up told her that Odysseus is on the island. He like swore that Odysseus was on the island. So then she asked to speak to the beggar, which she is known to do. But the beggar, Odysseus, says he wants to wait until. people go to sleep because the suitors have been mean to him, which, if you think about it, is a weird thing for a beggar to say to a queen, oh, no, let's wait until much later for me to talk to you, right? Then in book 18, she announces to the suitors that she's ready to marry, but they're doing it all wrong. They're supposed to give her gifts, not eat all the food. And so get out and bring her some gifts. which they agree to, although they don't agree to get out. Meanwhile, Odysseus, who hears her say that he's there, is happy, right? We talked about that. He's happy to hear her announce that she's ready to pick one of the suitors to marry. And Telemachus manages to get them out of the palace. And that brings us to book 19. right? So there's a little scheming that we'll talk about between Odysseus, Telemachus, and Athena about where to put the weapons. And then Penelope goes downstairs to where the suitors were to talk to the beggar. So here are the premises. Penelope has already recognized him. She's not 100 % sure maybe, but she's close. And Odysseus knows this. What does Penelope want to get out of the conversation that occupies like most of book 19? Number one, she wants to confirm for certain that this is Odysseus without letting anyone else in the house in on. the deal, right? And we know that Melantho and other slave girls too are banging the suitors, right? And they've betrayed her already about the weaving, unweaving trick. So she knows that if this is Odysseus, she has to make sure and communicate with him without any of the prying ears knowing about it, right? That's number one. Number two, she wants to explain her situation. But again, this has to be done kind of in code to Odysseus without the slave girls understanding like what's going on. So she needs to explain to him, I think she feels obligated to, why are the suitors here? Why hasn't she sent them away? How does she feel about him returning? And I think she wants to ask some like coded questions of her own to Odysseus. Number three. She wants to help Odysseus in whatever scheme he's dreaming up to kill the suitors and kind of collaborate with him on what the best way of doing that is and to see, you know, if that's really what he intends to do. And then finally, the last thing, I think she's encouraging him to... do this, right? Like, stop stalling, let's do this, it's been 20 fucking years, and it's time to return to our actual home. Right. So that's what I think she wants to get out of this. And then Odysseus, for his part, is letting her mostly run the show. He does want to prove to her that he's Odysseus. And I think he knows that she thinks that, but he's willing to submit to further confirmation tests. And he lets her set up the bow contest as the inciting event for the massacre to come. I think he's also trying to justify in coded language why he's been away so long and why he's waiting right now. So, like, that's the lens, right? I think they're all plausible assumptions, at least to test out as you read this. Odysseus and Penelope, as we've been talking about already, they're like-minded. They're schemers. They spin two of the most iconic schemes, like, in scheme history. Penelope's loom and Odysseus with the cyclops are iconic schemes. She's not an idiot. She's not a dupe. If she recognized him, I think she would want to do all those things. So if you read with that lens, I think book 19 makes much more sense. There's still a couple of loose ends for sure, but it makes like a lot more sense than thinking she hasn't recognized him. Because I think if you think that, you don't know why anyone is doing anything. Or if that's too strong, it's just much harder to make sense of, right? The test of the purple cloak. Uriklio washing his feet, Penelope telling the stranger the dream, the dream itself, Penelope just deciding to do the bow contest the next day. It makes so much more sense with that reading. And I would finally say, I do think this is the most plausible reading, but I also think it's the most compelling way to read this. It's the most fun and interesting way. And the coded language, the intrigue, some passive aggressive barbs at each other after all this time, like this is a real marriage of the mind. That's what this is. If you think that she's recognized him and not just talking to what she thinks is an ordinary beggar. So that's it. Good. And we can now go with an objective eye through the rest of it. Speaker 1 (14:52) So, you know, I came into this not being sure. I'm still not sure. Like, I don't feel strongly about either way. Like, I think you make compelling arguments for why that's a good reading. I did just have like a couple of questions for you, though, because is it then like when she's like mourning for her husband and crying and like refusing to believe that he's ever coming back? Is it then your belief that all that's pretense? Speaker 2 (15:11) You mean when she says that to him? Speaker 1 (15:13) Yeah, like she has like some, you know, toward the end, she's just like crying in bed. You know, she increased her, these words increased her grief. I know he's not coming back. I'll never welcome him home. You know, Speaker 2 (15:24) like I think there's two ways to understand that if I'm right. Number one, again, there are people listening. She knows that. And so this has to seem like she hasn't recognized him. Remember in book 17, she was. pretty giddy. She was like, oh, he is coming back. Like that was the meaning of the sneeze, right? She was like, oh, Telemachus' sneeze confirms it. He's definitely back. And she laughed for the first time, maybe only time in the whole text. So like, it's not that she actually is that pessimistic. I think she is trying to be that pessimistic for prying ears, but also to be like, I don't know if you have this in you. Why would I think you're going to do this? You're dressed as a beggar. It's been 20 years. like I think she's also kind of motivating him, encouraging him to actually do it when she gets pessimistic. And, you know, when she keeps saying to Odysseus, I'm going to set this thing tomorrow, he always like is excited. He's never upset that she's planning to marry like the next day. He is excited about that. And you never get the sense, I think, from Odysseus that he really thinks she has any intention of doing that. Speaker 1 (16:36) Yeah. I think he's definitely hatching a plan to like at least make it not happen. So is it the slave girls that she thinks are listening? Because it doesn't ever say explicitly that people are listening, right? Speaker 2 (16:48) No, but Melantho has been there clearly because right before she's like just launches into another one of her diss tracks of Odysseus. You know, first Odysseus gets mad at her and then Penelope gets mad at her. And like I said, it was the slave girls that betrayed her about