Swami Sarvapriyananda & Robert Thurman on Consciousness, Vedanta, and Madhyamika

Vedanta Talks - Swami Sarvapriyananda - Vedanta Society of New York

Swami Sarvapriyananda and Robert Thurman explore comparative philosophy's role in spiritual liberation, emphasizing Advaita Vedanta and Madhyamaka Buddhism as 'inner sciences' that transcend materialism. They discuss how

Key takeaways

• Robert Thurman dropped out of Harvard at 21 to study yoga in India, seeking deeper reality beyond materialist science

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:09) Namaskar, everyone. Thank you for giving me the honor and privilege to moderate this discussion. In front of you, Stalwarts and great, great people, I'm a layperson, and I just host a fun little channel in which we discuss philosophy, religion, and the Dharmaic traditions. So thank you for allowing me to come on and speak to everyone here and engage in this moderation. So I have my own questions, but let's start with the questions from the other scholars in the room. room. So Greg Good asked the question. On the topic of comparative philosophies and liberational approaches, one of the most fascinating aspects is why we discuss this issue. He would like both of you to share your thoughts on this. Like, there are many reasons including cultural education, linguistic, history, and all this other stuff. What is the reason to study this for, let's say a lay person? Why would you want to study Advaita? or Tibetan Buddhism or Madhyaamika, what's the impact on your life? Should Swami Ji go first? Yeah, let me go. Yeah, and then, yeah. All right, yes, sir. So, yes, what we call the pragya, the need for this. What's the project here? The project is overcoming suffering. Project is attainment of fulfillment. And these, was that the question? Yes. Yeah, it was the question. And I think a little more tangiveness is, you know, much of the traditions we talk about involve some sort of aesthetic practice or, you know, a deeper spiritual commitment. How do these values and these thoughts you bring to the table, and we're discussing here, how does this apply in your everyday life as a layperson? I'm a lawyer every day. How does being following Advaita or following Buddhism in this context inform the way, I live my life. I just wanted to say that my question, that's a good question, it deserves a good discussion. My question was about the title of this module, which was comparative philosophy, and my question was, why do comparative philosophy? All right. As opposed to doing the Dharma itself. I think, yeah, that was my first understanding, I think. All right. So instead of just doing the time, Dharma, why do comparative philosophy? You would have to do the Dharma. That's not compromised. You will have to be a spiritual practitioner. So for those who are spiritual practitioners, why do comparative philosophy? There are different people who do comparative philosophy. Yes. I am reminded of the Mughal prince Dara Shukoh. And he was the one who actually is sort of instrumentally, why we are here today, because he got the Upanishads translated for his own. own purposes. He wanted to read them in Persian. And then those, that translation traveled across the oceans, Antoine de Saint-Exupéry came to Europe and came to Schopenhauer and then had its impact on western south and so and so forth. But his comment that when I read these ancient texts, I find a flood of light illuminating dark areas in my own faith. And what is dark in this body of work, I have light in my own faith, something which throws light and that, and thus I am enriched. Okay, that's a great answer. So my answer to that, I would give something personal, and that is that when I was 20 years old, 21 years old, I dropped out of Harvard, finally. I had actually dropped out of high school too, but then I went back. But anyway, I dropped out of Harvard and went to India to find a teacher to become a yogi because I was tired of being told that I couldn't understand the world. I couldn't understand myself. I couldn't understand reality. And on the other hand, I was told that I had to be skillful about know what is a red light and a green light so it was nothing going to run over in traffic. And we have to know reality to get around and do this and develop skills and write and the whole education is about that. But some sort of notion that reality actually as it is is unknowable by our dumb mind. And therefore we have to follow this and that religious faith system that tells us, well, it doesn't make sense, but you've got to believe it. And even in science, you can analyze this thing, this atom, this other thing. But you'll never know anything because, of course, the materialist, scientific materialists, think reality is just material in what they think of what we would call an Indian thing atisukshma, Rupa or extremely not not I'm sorry not that's not not sochma but of course reality and therefore it's a matter of quantities and obviously if it's an infinite universe you can't count at all so that makes sense but I got tired of that and I felt it should be possible, and I got the inkling from reading some Buddhist texts and some Vedantic texts and Upanishads and things like that. I got the inkling that in India, they had some kind of discipline, engagement like yoga, where you could understand your own emotions, your own psychology, your own reality, and even the world's reality, by developing your mind as an instrument in a higher way. and so I left and did that for four or five years until then I decided to become a professor so I could keep doing it for more years because I realized it would take more time. So the point is, why do you want to study these things because these are results of people who discovered the nature of reality and gave methods to how to do that and challenged blind faith things, at least most of them? Now and then, here and there, There were people who interpreted in such a way that you just have to believe something, and it became a religious matter. But mostly the greatest discoveries were something called inner science, which I didn't know the expression, Adyatma Vidya, which I really liked. And then once I got there to India, I discovered that the grammar of Sanskrit and Tibetan, too, that they actually knew that a consonant could make no sound unless it was connected with a vowel. and I had never heard that from English, Greek, or Latin grammar. I went to a British school and had to learn those classical languages a little bit. And nobody ever figured that out. Even the consonant sounds very noisy. And I realized that somewhere this culture had a better idea of what we're doing when we're flapping our lips, as the Zen people are all talking. You know, that you know, that tea is dental and tongue and when there's no vowel, all you can do is go, you can't make a sound. So that meant they were more realistic than Western people who were teaching me English grammar. So then I met I was encountering a more sophisticated culture and then I've ever listened and I've been studying that. So if you want to know what's real and you want to have a meaning in your life that fits with what is your best idea of reality, these things are core curriculum material. not just some frill of some curiosity, exotic curiosity at all. They are a part of the nature of reality. And in the future, quantum physics, Carlo Rovelli, has opened the door. People who want to be quantum physics and basically make more bombs and more computers, they will try to be yogis. They will have to be yogis or yogis or yoghany, so they won't get anywhere. AI will completely make them unemployable. Okay, that's my answer. You have a quick comment here and then I'm going to pass it on to Mukun. May I make a comment? To Robert and also to Swami Zik, quick comment, is would it be okay to view the differences we have noticed between the Madhyamaka and Aduyth Vedantah, similar to Sintong and Rantong type internal scholastic difference within Tibetan Buddhist tradition? Well, I think there are difference within different spiritual practitioners who have different methods of teaching and different methods of exploration and interpret their own experiences in different ways and or fit them with a particular person. I think the great teachers, the good gurus are the people, you can't be a spiritual guru unless you're empathetic to the degree that you have clairvoyance, abhinna. You have to have. you have to know what's wrong with your student and what's blocking their mind about understanding. And so you can't just dictate some dogmas to them. And therefore you will be able to like a Socratic way or Buddhist dialogue way or Upanishadic dialogue way. You will draw out of them what they do believe, show them where they are making a mistake in their reasoning, and then improve their reasoning. You know, the Indian syllogism with its example, it's their Santa, as part of the syllogism is superior to the Greek one. In fact, most sophisticated, like Matilal, my dear friend, the late Vima Matilal said. He proved that very effectively, I think. And few people, some Russian scholars of Nyaya and of Buddhist Pramana studies, Shabatsky and this kind of people, they realized that they could reason better. Sanskrit is better for reasoning than English, German, or any other language. Anyway. I'm sorry, I hope that answered the question. I tend to ramble in my age. Mukunda, may I make a couple of comments? It's Subhanu. Yeah, go ahead. Thank you. Thank you for the two wonderful talks, Swamiji, and Robertsa. Just to build on what was mentioned earlier by you, Swamiji, and others, I actually think the riguea that invites us to take views from all places. Aho, Bhadrāḥ, Kṛtāvaya, Yāndū Bhiṣvatāha, let noble thoughts come to us from every side. And I just wanted to share an example. I mentioned that I would do verse to and fro with my grandfather in Urdu. I just wanted to show this work by Mirza Ghalib. On his way to a tax issue, he spent a month in Banaras and he wrote this work, Chiraghe Deh, about his time in Benares. and the spiritual experiences, one of the verses in Farsi says, Ta Allah Banaras, Chashme Badur, behishte