An Unlikely Affair: The Parts We Can't Erase
Untraditionally Lala
In this episode of Untraditionally Lala, hosts Lala and Ambyr welcome psychologist Dr. Hillary Goldsher to discuss the lasting impact of tra
Key takeaways
- Dr. Hillary Goldsher clarifies that the goal of couples therapy is not always to save a marriage, but to assess if it is emotionally safe to stay together.
- The hosts share a unique bond formed by a past affair where one was the wife and the other was the mistress.
Main topics
- Trauma and healing
- The purpose of therapy
Notable quotes
My goal is not necessarily to keep a family together... My goal is to help the family system assess whether or not it's emotionally safe to stay together.
Conclusion
The episode offers a profound look at how individuals can move toward
Transcript preview
Speaker 2 (0:00) This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. Lisa, tell them about our new show. We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Iwano. We're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa DiGiulio, the old one, Speaker 7 (0:17) which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions. And at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. Now Speaker 2 (0:24) in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, good taste is my business. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you Speaker 7 (0:32) get your podcasts. Speaker 4 (0:35) I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcast. The true crime comedy podcast all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week I bring on an amazing guest. Speaker 8 (0:47) Ooh, I scammed him. What? I could talk to you for an hour. Speaker 4 (0:50) You're a generational yapper, like me. That's why I had to make yapping a job. And now you can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube. Start listening to Scam Goddess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 2 (1:05) Hi, this is Kylie Brakeman, Angela Geratana, Speaker 4 (1:08) Jeremy Colhane, Patrick McDonald, Speaker 8 (1:10) and Speaker 2 (1:10) we're the hosts of the Artists on Artists on Artists on Artists podcast, the Speaker 8 (1:14) improvised character comedy podcast, where each week a new panel of artists discuss their craft. Join us for a panel of Eurovision participants. Speaker 7 (1:22) And we do a little Halloween sometimes. Does the Pope dress up? He winks on Halloween. Speaker 8 (1:28) He gets right up next to the microphone. Speaker 2 (1:30) I hear you can almost hear the eyelashes hit each other. Speaker 8 (1:33) You've never seen Italy so quiet as when the Pope gets up to wink on Halloween. Speaker 7 (1:38) Listen to Artists on Artists on Artists on Artists every Thursday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you Speaker 2 (1:45) get your podcasts. Speaker 8 (1:46) You broke me. You do not deserve happiness. Speaker 2 (1:50) I'm Andrea Gunning. On this season of Betrayal, Carl thought he was living a normal, drama-free life until the messages started. Speaker 8 (1:59) Someone's not going to make it out of this alive. Speaker 2 (2:02) Every piece of evidence pointed to the wrong guy. Speaker 8 (2:05) He was not going to stop unless we stopped him. Speaker 2 (2:09) Listen to Betrayal Season 6 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 5 (2:17) Hey, everybody, it's me, W. Kamau Bell. This season on my podcast, Who's With Me, I speak with Bruce Lee's daughter, Brandon Lee's sister, and my friend, Shannon Lee. Speaker 7 (2:27) Back to your initial point of stewarding my father's legacy and giving my energy to that. You're lending your life to stewarding somebody else's life. Speaker 5 (2:38) Listen to Who's With Me with W. Kamau Bell on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 4 (2:46) Is there an epidemic against literature? More specifically, Black literature? I'm Jacquees Peace Thomas, and on this season of the Black Lit Podcast, we're outside asking why. They don't want a whole bunch of little Ella Bakers, Malcolm Xs, and Martin Luther Kings running around. And when you look at a lot of different cultures, they're like, we need to know where you came from. And considering this is Black Reading Month, the only real question is, what are you reading next? Listen to Black Lit from the Black Effect Podcast Network on our iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 8 (3:19) Hey, it's Bobby Bones. Join me and former NFL quarterback Matt Castle every Wednesday on our podcast, Lots to Say, with me, Bobby Bones, and Matt Castle. You're in training camp, and the rookie quarterback has one good throwing session in front of the media. Suddenly, everybody online says he should start over you week one. How do you handle this? You just go back out to practice the next day and wait for him to mess up. Listen to Lots to Say with Bobby Bones and Matt Castle on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 6 (3:49) So Lala and I met like maybe, I don't know. God, 10 years ago? Mm-hmm. Oh, my God. I don't even think I've actually said the number. I was married for eight years, and she was the mistress. I was the wife. Speaker 3 (4:03) I did not know this. Yeah. Speaker 6 (4:05) I would remember that. Yeah. I would definitely remember Speaker 3 (4:08) that. Speaker 6 (4:08) So Speaker 3 (4:08) that's Speaker 6 (4:08) how. And then eventually, she has a daughter, Ocean, who's five, with my ex-husband, and then I have two kids. And so we're one happy, blended Speaker 1 (4:17) family. My second baby, I conceived via sperm donor. so she's just mine wow Speaker 3 (4:23) and Speaker 1 (4:24) she looks oddly like amber which Speaker 3 (4:26) is Speaker 1 (4:26) great Speaker 3 (4:27) i love it she's my child full circle moment yeah totally solidify the extended family so that's Speaker 6 (4:33) the background of an unlikely affair Speaker 1 (4:35) hi amber hi lola welcome to an unlikely affair Speaker 6 (4:46) Dr. Hillary Goldshear. Welcome to An Unlikely Affair. Speaker 3 (4:50) Thank you. Thank you guys for having me. We're so excited Speaker 6 (4:52) to have you. So excited. So I did a lot of therapy starting like after I had my first baby. I remember my OBGYN, Dr. Katz said, you know, I was like, I'm not feeling great. Like he's like, have you ever done therapy? I'm like, no. He's like, okay, call this woman. Was this Speaker 1 (5:09) postpartum? Speaker 6 (5:10) Yeah. Okay. I had a little postpartum. And so I did therapy for like 10 years. And then finally, like after my divorce, I was like, no more therapy. I cannot do therapy anymore. It was just became like, I felt like therapy didn't save my marriage. And I think that that's a lot of, probably a misconception that a lot of people have. Like I need a therapist to fix this problem. And I would love for you to talk a little bit about like Speaker 3 (5:36) the Speaker 6 (5:36) purpose of therapy, how you define therapy for people. Speaker 3 (5:40) Yes. But it's such a good question as it relates to couples work, because one of my core conceptualizations as a couples therapist is the notion that my goal is not necessarily to keep a family together, sadly, painfully worthy of much grief. But my goal is to help the family system assess whether or not it's emotionally safe to stay together and guide them. one way or the other. Of course, it is not my opinion. It is my assessment after working together with a family and understanding all the dynamics. And my goal is to hopefully guide the family system to decide themselves and either keep them together with peace, love, and health, or help them separate with peace, love, and health, and grief, and support, and guidance. And so I think it is a misperception that therapy is somehow like failing if it doesn't keep you together. But the best couples therapist helps a family come apart. Speaker 6 (6:49) Wow. Speaker 3 (6:49) See, Speaker 6 (6:50) I wish someone would have explained that to me in my 20s and who knew if I would have like understand it differently. But having that little disclosure before you even enter into therapy and say, listen, this is the purpose. Because I feel like a lot of times you just walk in. And they're like, tell me what's going on. You know, tell me a little bit about yourself. And then they dive in. But having a full, like, understanding of the purpose of sitting down and paying someone, because let's be honest, therapy's fucking expensive, especially in Los Angeles and, like, all these bigger cities. A lot of insurance don't pay for it, or a lot of therapists don't accept insurance because it's a lot of money, fighting getting the money, and then you get a super bill. It's the whole thing. So I feel like there has to be a very— It has to be purposeful work when you go into therapy. Speaker 3 (7:35) Having a paradigm helps ground everyone and having a version of an objective. I mean, it's a fine line we walk as therapists. We want the space to be open and free and allow for safe feelings to be expressed. It is okay to want to identify an objective and have ideas about what you want to get out of it and talk about it and self-advocate even to say like, I'm confused about what we're doing here or what our goal is or where we're headed or it feels like we keep talking about the same things. All of those things are clinical material for the therapist to work with, but also part of self-advocacy. Just because you're in therapy doesn't mean that it's, working perfectly and is the right fit. It is okay to co-create the right environment for yourself. Speaker 6 (8:27) You want a therapist to really push you and challenge the way you're thinking. So you wouldn't necessarily want that. Like, well, maybe you would on a date, but like, I want someone to kind of kick my ass in therapy. I'm not coming here to get a nod and saying, yes, Amber, I'm so sorry. That's the way you feel. And yes, your feelings are validated. It's like, okay, well, let's put yourself in the other person's position or, kind of look at the situation without the emotions of it too. Speaker 3 (8:55) If that's your wish is to have someone, a therapist that's active, ask about that. How active are you? How much do you get into solution-focused discussions? I Speaker 6 (9:07) also want a therapist to say, are you exercising? Are you taking care of yourself? Are you seeing your girlfriends? Speaker 6 (9:13) full spectrum of a lifestyle shift if I'm struggling with one area because it's not I mean I'm sober and I want someone to say okay well are you working your program are you talking to your sponsor are you going to the gym are you going are you meditating like that I think that approach also for me Is way more Speaker 1 (9:34) attractive. Here's the thing. When you think about therapy. Your therapist is not. Emotionally charged. Right? Like it's so easy to. Not saying you guys are giving advice. You know have a background in medicine. Extremely brilliant. But. If you. Those people that say you know. How are you supposed to give me good advice. If like I'm here for my marriage. But. You're divorced going through this, that, and the other. It's like life still happens. And I think that's the stigma behind therapy is therapists are looked at as these people who have to have it all together. And they're sitting down with you to dig into just your childhood. And I think that scares people. It scares me, you know? Because I'm like, I don't know that something that happened to me when I was five being bullied in the schoolyard. I just don't know how that carries into my life now. And I think a lot of people think that way. Speaker 6 (10:33) You know? Speaker 1 (10:35) I Speaker 6 (10:35) love you. No, but I really Speaker 1 (10:37) don't think that that affected you. I think it affected me. I think there's nothing I can do about it and we got to move on. Yeah, there's also nothing I can do. Speaker 6 (10:45) Right, right, right. But you just have the, not that I'm a therapist, but I'm saying there's just like an awareness, right? Yeah. What do you mean? Just like an awareness of like. okay, this happened to me when I was in elementary school, whatever, I got pushed down or thrown into the fucking trash, whatever it is, that shapes you. Like, you're a young child. Like, can you imagine, like, something like that happening to Ocean? And Ocean saying, oh, it didn't bother me? I don't think you as a mother would say, like, no, honey, like, I believe that you would Speaker 1 (11:17) say, let's talk about it. I'm not saying that that doesn't shape who someone is. I'm saying that people who... Speaker 1 (11:27) feel a little bit skeptical of therapy from what I have gathered is that they wonder, why would I sit in a room if someone wants to go all the way back to my childhood when I need coping mechanisms for the now? Does that, am I making sense? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. You know, so like how, how would you, how would you explain to somebody? We won't even go into like my trauma with this one specific therapist where I have not seen a therapist since because I have tremendous trust issues with everybody on the planet. But like, how do you soften someone up to the idea of therapy? Speaker 3 (12:03) Such good questions. And I think you're right that many people have the perception that therapy is digging up old childhood trauma, which I'm not here to say it doesn't include that, which we'll talk about in a moment. But the idea of like, I don't want to do that, that feels overwhelming and intimidating and makes me want to shut down. And furthermore, is that really going to help me today? And those are good questions. They're right questions. It's what intersects with what I was talking about earlier. From my perspective, my theoretical orientation, my approach seeks to pair those things together. I don't think you can do one without the other, without having sustained results. You can get decent results, in my view, looking at kind of day-to-day what's happening. What happens in early childhood impacts our mapping, our early mapping of how we view ourselves and how we move through the world. And so if we don't unpack that and first create sacred space for the pain of that and then come to understand how it impacts how we view ourselves and how we move through the world, we can't really ever get under the hood enough to shift the early mapping to something more expansive so that we can be consciously and unconsciously aware of how things affect us and make different choices in the moment. Speaker 6 (13:24) Right. I always use the expression like, I need to deprogram myself in this area because the programming is a little off or a little crooked. And then I have to reprogram myself to what the right solution is or the right way to move through the world. Speaker 3 (13:39) It's exactly what I'm talking about, right? I mean, it's the intersection of both of those things. But Lala, I really like your question about like, how do you soften someone up? Because I think there are many people who are like, I'm not doing that. And just- I also Speaker 1 (13:49) think it's a generational thing. A hundred percent. Like, Speaker 3 (13:52) I Speaker 1 (13:53) feel like, My mom is like, why? And then I'll talk to my friends and my friends will be like, oh my God, my mom is like questioning me on why I'm going to therapy. I want to make it very, very clear. I have such a deep appreciation for therapists. And again, it goes back to this one specific incident where I now have to find someone I really, really trust, you know, because even Amber has said like. We need therapy. When she says we, she means me, which I'm well aware of. No, Speaker 6 (14:25) I need therapy Speaker 1 (14:25) too. I'm not Speaker 6 (14:26) just put you in that Speaker 1 (14:27) bucket. But I think a generational thing as well, where it's like a lot of people who are my mom's age and maybe a bit older, it's like, we don't talk about our feelings. That shit goes under the rug. Like everything's fine. You know? Speaker 3 (14:42) Absolutely. I think they're the Speaker 1 (14:44) ones that need the most therapy. That Speaker 3 (14:45) was the generational edict is that you don't talk about family business or tricky emotions. And in fact, it's not just neutral that if you did, that was a sign of weakness or conflict or trouble that was embarrassing or shameful. And so it is not just neutral. It's the opposite that you shouldn't and that you should have a version of shame if you do. Right. And so, I mean, that is a tough. dynamic and sort of notion to break. But I have two thoughts. I mean, one, when it's kind of a generational issue, my discussion is a recommendation of attempting to avail oneself of like the experience. Like you can go to therapy and you don't have to, you can commit to 50 minutes and that's it, right? You don't have to, you don't have to draw a contract. You don't like it. You don't have to return, right? Speaker 2 (15:41) Lisa, we should tell them about our new show. Oh my God, Lexi, we have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Iwanu. We're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisi DiGiulio, the old one, which means we have wildly Speaker 7 (15:57) different references, occasionally different opinions. And at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. I'm not going to get anywhere fighting. That is wild. I learned that about you today. Speaker 2 (16:09) Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, good taste is my business. And I've always got something to say. If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. We're going to talk about dating, Speaker 7 (16:22) relationships, beauty, getting older. And a little wiser. We're best friends, but we don't always agree. Speaker 2 (16:28) Because you told us how accommodating you are. Obviously, I would do what I think I could do to fight the fight. But there's only so much fight I can fight. Speaker 7 (16:36) Don't lie to me. Speaker 2 (16:37) Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Liar. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't really care. Speaker 4 (16:50) I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcast. The true crime comedy podcast all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week I bring on incredible guests like Conan O'Brien, Iowa Debris, Lamorne Morris, and Nicole Byer. Ooh, Speaker 8 (17:07) I scammed them. What? Speaker 4 (17:09) I could talk to you for an hour. You're a generational yapper, like me. That's Speaker 8 (17:13) why I had to make yapping Speaker 4 (17:13) a job. And the scams run the gamut. I'm talking about scams from the 1800s all the way up. to today. I also warn you and keep you safe against scammers. Call your grandparents. Tell your parents to stop clicking on links, please. And now you can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube. If there's a scam, I'm here to protect you. And I'm also here to laugh with you. So if you like fun, if you like comedy, and you like learning and protecting yourself from criminals, start listening to Scam Goddess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 8 (18:14) So we don't like to use that word anymore. Okay. A panel of New Yorker cartoonists. Have you guys done Terry Gross' Peloton class yet? No! Speaker 7 (18:22) I've been dying to. I'm Speaker 8 (18:25) so sorry. I'm seeing a reading of Sadako and the Thousand Paper Cranes by Audra McDonald at the Wonderland Bookstore on the 14th. Speaker 7 (18:32) That's crazy. I went to the Wonderland Bookstore yesterday and I heard Nora Jones do a reading of Zero Dark Thirty. No way. Speaker 2 (18:38) We'll have to come to