Breaking News: A conversation about Cornell

Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge

This episode features hosts Jen Fessler and Elisa Donovan interviewing CBS News correspondent Lilia Luciano and NPR correspondent Brian Mann about the high-profile 'Cornell 7' sexual

Key takeaways

• Jane Doe's civil lawsuit names seven men, Cornell University, Chi Phi fraternity leadership, Tri Delta sorority, a bar, and a nightclub for failing to protect her during the alleged 2024 incident.
• CBS News correspondent Lilia Luciano revealed that Cornell's internal Title IX investigation lasted four months, interviewed over 30 witnesses, and resulted in two expulsions and two suspensions, but findings were never shared with prosecutors due to confidentiality claims.

Main topics

• Cornell University Title IX investigation
• Jane Doe civil lawsuit against seven men and institutions

Notable quotes

"The university completed its investigation. It took four months. They interviewed more than 30 witnesses... But because these were Title IX investigations, they're confidential."

Conclusion

The episode underscores a critical breakdown between university disciplinary processes and criminal

Transcript preview

Speaker 7 (0:00) This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. I'm Melissa Jeltsin, host of the What Happened to Her podcast. We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snowstorm. Her family never bought it, and the man they suspected wore a badge. You Speaker 8 (0:19) never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform. Speaker 7 (0:24) And you can get access to all episodes 100 % ad-free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. Lisa, tell them about our new show. We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Iwano. We're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa DiGiulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, Speaker 1 (0:58) occasionally different opinions. And at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. Now Speaker 7 (1:02) in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, good taste is my business. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 7 (1:14) Hi, this is Kylie Brakeman, Angela Geritana, Speaker 8 (1:16) Jeremy Colhane, Patrick McDonald, and Speaker 7 (1:18) we're the hosts of the Artists on Artists on Artists on Artists podcast, the Speaker 8 (1:22) improvised character comedy podcast, where each week a new panel of artists discuss their craft. Join us for a panel of Eurovision participants. And Speaker 2 (1:31) we do a little Halloween sometimes. Does the Pope dress up? He winks on Halloween. Speaker 8 (1:36) He gets right up next to the microphone. I hear you can almost hear the eyelashes hit each other. You've never seen Italy so quiet as when the Pope gets up to wink on Halloween. Speaker 2 (1:46) Listen to Artists on Artists on Artists on Artists every Thursday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 1 (1:54) I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcast. The true crime comedy podcast all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week I bring on an amazing guest. Speaker 8 (2:06) Ooh, I scammed him. Speaker 1 (2:07) What? I Speaker 8 (2:08) could talk to you for an hour. Speaker 1 (2:09) You're a generational yapper, like me. That's why I had to make yapping a job. And now you can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube. Start listening to Scam Goddess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 1 (2:24) Is there an epidemic against literature? More specifically, Black literature. I'm Jacquees Peace Thomas, and on this season of the Black Lit Podcast, we're outside asking why. They don't want a whole bunch of little Ella Bakers, Malcolm Xs, and Martin Luther Kings running around. And when you look at a lot of different cultures, they're like, we need to know where you came from. And considering this is Black Reading Month, the only real question is, what are you reading next? Listen to Black Lit from the Black Effect Podcast Network on our iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 8 (2:56) The following episode will be discussing themes of sexual assault. If you or anyone you know is a victim of sexual assault or abuse, call RAINN's Sexual Assault Hotline at 1-800-656-HOPE. That's 1-800-656-4673. Speaker 4 (3:13) Hi, everybody. This is Jen Fessler. Welcome to Dirty Rush. I've got Elisa Donovan with me. Hi, everybody. Hi, and we are here to talk about some breaking news. We're going to talk about what's going on at Cornell. We are talking to a couple of reporters, one from NPR, one from CBS. This is extremely difficult and important and information that we are gathering here in real time. Speaker 6 (3:43) And they're Speaker 4 (3:43) going to give us some of the Speaker 6 (3:44) facts. You know, there are a lot of feelings about all of this. And so it's important to get some real specific information, I think. Speaker 4 (3:52) Agreed. And we feel like it's also really important here at Dirty Rush since what we do is talk about Greek life. We do a lot of happy stories, happy Greek life stories. This is not one of them, but this is a really important conversation to have. Let's welcome in CBS News correspondent Lilia Luciano. Speaker 6 (4:12) So for anybody who hasn't, who's just hearing about this Cornell 7 case, which is a troubling name, can you walk us through what Jane Doe alleges happened that night and how the seven men became connected to the case? Speaker 2 (4:28) Well, we've learned the names of these seven men because of a civil lawsuit that Jane Doe filed earlier this month. In it, she... claims that there were seven men at various points of the night within a period of approximately, it could be anywhere between five and seven hours. It seems she allegedly arrived at the fraternity house at around or after 11 p.m. and that what she's saying were these non-consensual encounters began at around or after 1.40 a.m. At least we know from the timestamp of the Snapchat videos or the Snapchat conversation that have a time that's after 1 a.m., after 1.40. And according to the civil complaint, it all ended at around 5.40 a.m., so anywhere between, you know, seven and five hours. She says that at various times there were a total of seven men in and out of one room and that she was in a state that she was so intoxicated, according to the civil lawsuit, that she couldn't possibly give consent, that the men, she doesn't. specifically say that she engaged in sexual activities or that she was raped by all seven, but she describes being in the middle of threesomes, even after she at one point said that she just couldn't perform anymore because she was out of it. And also there was one moment where she says that, and this according to the first statement that she gave police after this happened a few weeks after, kind of laying down and a group of men were snorting or doing ketamine off of her body. Her attorney has been very clear in saying, look, even if her initial statements to police Even though in the statements to police, she talked about feeling like she was rejecting the advances, you know, that she was swapping away some of the men's hands from her body. The D.A. interpreted her statement as everything was consensual and I can't find a crime here. Her attorney has been saying, look, in cases of sexual trauma, and this is something that the district attorney acknowledged as well in the interviews I did with him, it takes time to go from, you know, denial, he says, to shame, to coming to terms with something that could be considered rape. And what we know is the university, Cornell University, completed a full investigation that lasted for several months. and After that investigation, they expelled two students. They suspended two students. They found two students not to be responsible for sexual misconduct. And one student did not testify. And I believe he graduated before the proceedings ended. The question that a lot of people have and which I have posed to the district attorney and to the university, but the university is not. responsive in a direct way. They just direct us to these statements that they have a line is how can someone. Speaker 2 (8:01) find actions actionable in expelling at least two students and not present those findings to a district attorney or to an outside police agent. This is kind of the crux of the story. The university completed its investigation. It took four months. They interviewed more than 30 witnesses, including the respondents or what you would call defendants in a criminal case. Speaker 2 (8:30) In more than 50 interviews and arrived at these conclusions that we're trying to obtain to obtain. But because these were Title IX investigations, they're confidential. They did not present those findings to the district attorney and the district attorney. The only thing he says that he received after what happened was a police statement that Jane Doe gave to police just weeks after the encounter, which he considered did not. show enough evidence to a crime to present charges. And the Snapchat video with the chat that now everyone has seen or heard about, at least on social media or in news coverage, where some of the men were sending messages inviting others to partake in these sexual activities in a very vulgar and disrespectful and, you know, concerning way. How did those text messages get leaked? Did one of the fraternity members actually tell the authorities? So what I understand from speaking with attorneys and with a district attorney, I'm trying to remember how. who reported this first, but basically... Speaker 2 (9:47) I'm trying to remember how this came out, but somebody who was in the chat. Not sure if it was somebody who was in the room at all or who or who interacted with Jane Doe that night, but somebody who was in that chat and there were dozens of frat members in that chat took a video of the chat and sent it to Jane Doe. So this is something that her attorney had, and I believe she gave that to police. But I'm not 100 percent sure if that's. How? What I do know is that police at that point only interviewed Jane Doe. So all the evidence they had to determine whether there was a crime or not was based on this, on two days of interviews. One day she was interviewed, the second day they drafted a statement for her to review, approve and sign as a sworn statement. And I've read that statement various times. And that statement in itself is very concerning. I think, you know, law enforcement sure has a higher bar and the DA has a higher bar for crime. One thing that the DA explained to me is the rules of the university say that consent means affirmatively saying yes. The rules for the New York legal system is you have to say no or be unconscious. And, you know, somebody violates that and then that constitutes a crime. It seems like an incredibly high bar compared to the university one. But if the university did conduct such a thorough investigation, the question remains, why wouldn't they present that to law enforcement? So, yeah, Speaker 4 (11:26) before we before we came on, we're talking about it was it was it a 10 page statement? It was a six Speaker 2 (11:32) -page statement. Six-page, Speaker 4 (11:33) excuse me. But before we came on, I saw a report that there was also a one-page or a two-page statement where she was very clear and said she was raped. When did that happen? Speaker 2 (11:45) Right. So there's a number of places and either healthcare workers or officials or law enforcement who heard from her. She, a couple of days after the incident, went to a clinic and she went to a clinic to ask for you know std tests and treatment for um for uh uti and she allegedly and this according to the to the investigation from the university she explained to whoever treated her that this uti was the result of uh trauma they did not refer they said you should talk to somebody but they they did not order a rape kit. They did not seem to question her further or even take this to the police. When she goes and she reports it to police, in the room with her was an investigator or a representative from the university's Title IX investigation or Title IX office. What I understand from what the DA told me is that there is a transcript which CBS News New York reported first this week of the interviews that she had with police. And I have not seen that transcript. I want to be clear. But our colleagues at WCBS, CBS New York read parts of that transcript. So this is a transcript of the interviews she did with police. She did two days of interviews. That transcript may have been gathered by the Title IX investigator or representative, the person who was there with her while she was speaking with Cornell University police. The discrepancy between a statement in that transcript and what ended up in the statement is alarming because according to the transcript, she said, I can say with 100 % confidence, I was raped. That did not end up in the statement that the district attorney read to decide whether or not to pursue charges. I asked the district attorney, you know, is this an omission? What does this mean? If there was a crime, even after the university completed its investigation and had their 12 hearings, and there was something that was omitted or somebody found evidence of a crime and covered it up in any way, could that be prosecutable? I mean, could somebody face charges for that? And he said, absolutely, that they are going to look into everything. How then the university carried out their investigation, how the police gathered their evidence, and why didn't a statement so alarming end up in the sworn statement she gave? Speaker 6 (14:20) I... Speaker 6 (14:22) I had read that as well, what you just very eloquently and articulately explained. And I thought, how on earth is this possible? Speaker 2 (14:33) And one thing that I think is important to learn from this case as you zoom out is what I have heard from the DA explain it to me, what the university has been saying through their statements is that a Title IX investigation is confidential. Its findings are confidential and that the university is banned by federal law from sharing those results. I've been consulting legal experts and even within CBS to try and understand, is that true? Is