756a Resurrecting Roman Rubble; Plovdiv Bulgaria; European Travel Serendipity

Travel with Rick Steves

In this episode of Travel with Rick Steves, host Philip Barlag—a self-proclaimed 'Rome nerd'—shares insights into reconstructing ancient Roman life from its enduring rubble,

Key takeaways

• Ancient Roman ruins are not just remnants but clues to understanding daily life, urban planning, and societal values of the time.
• The destruction and reuse of ancient materials—like marble in medieval construction—reflect a long-standing tradition that shaped Rome's physical legacy.

Main topics

• Roman urban architecture and daily life
• Preservation and reuse of ancient materials

Notable quotes

If I see four ancient bricks stacked on top of each other, I feel this compelling, deep urge to know what were those things? What was the building that was there? Why was it built?

The ancient Roman world was full of buildings that were beautified in their own way, but they're just... they were everywhere and the whole city looked like that.

Conclusion

This episode invites listeners to see ancient ruins not as silent stones but as living testaments to human

Transcript preview

Speaker 3 (0:00) If you visit Rome with Philip Barlag, be prepared to make a lot of stops. He might be tempted to investigate nearly every pile of stones you come across for evidence of the ancient Roman Empire. Speaker 4 (0:11) If I see four ancient bricks stacked on top of each other, I feel this compelling, deep urge to know what were those things? What was the building that was there? Why was it built? Speaker 3 (0:21) Coming up, he tells us how he resurrects Roman rubble. There's an ancient Roman amphitheater that's still in use in Bulgaria. It's a concert venue in its second-largest city, which could just be the oldest city in all of Europe. Speaker 1 (0:35) The people of Plovdiv believe that they're the elite of the nation, and they have so many rights to say that. A Bulgarian Speaker 3 (0:42) guide lets us in on why they're so proud of their cultural capital, Plovdiv. And listeners bring us travel reports from lesser-known places that you might enjoy seeing as well. Come along for a few surprise destinations in the hour ahead. It's travel with Rick Steves. Speaker 3 (1:00) Have you thought about the Roman Empire yet today? We'll look at what its architecture tells us about living there 2,000 years ago. There's a city in Bulgaria that's even older than Rome or Athens, and in just a bit, we'll learn about Plovdiv, the cultural capital of Bulgaria, with evidence dating it back 8,000 years. My favorite Bulgarian guide tells us how it's a fashionable destination today that you'll probably really like. and listeners share tips from their own travels to lesser-known places that did not disappoint in being delightful. Speaker 3 (1:35) When Philip Barlag first stepped off the train in Rome, he saw a 2,000-year-old wall. Wandering through the remains of the ancient city with its temples, aqueducts, and arenas, his fascination grew, and he's since become a self-described Rome nerd. All that curiosity turned into a book. It's called The History of Rome in Twelve Buildings, which is not really a guidebook, but a companion guide to reveal the hidden stories of the eternal city. Philip joins us now on Travel with Rick Steves to discuss how to bring that rubble to life, how to resurrect the ruins of the city which, in its prime 2,000 years ago, meant not the city, but the entire civilized world. Philip, thanks for being here. Speaker 4 (2:16) Rick, thank you so much for having me. Speaker 3 (2:17) So I enjoyed so much reading through your book, and clearly it's written by a Roman nerd. What's with this nerdiness approach that you have to Rome? How did that happen, and how have you enjoyed that? Speaker 4 (2:30) So enjoy is an interesting word because I have to confess something. Being in Rome is almost a form of torture for me. And that's because every time I see, if you said you mentioned knock the dust off the monuments, if I see four ancient bricks stacked on top of each other, I feel this compelling, deep urge to know what were those things? What was the building that was there? Why was it built? And so that quest to have to know, to understand where I am, what I'm seeing. You ask a lot of questions, you answer some of them, you learn more, you keep going. And being in Rome for me has always been just the next question, finding the next answer, putting it all together. Speaker 3 (3:07) When it comes to the challenge of what I call resurrecting the rubble, what are some of your tricks to help us humanize what happened so long ago? Speaker 4 (3:16) I think knowing who the people that built the buildings, what they were trying to accomplish, what was happening inside of Rome at the time. and stack those chronologically with one another so that the cumulative effect of looking at a small handful in the thousands of interesting buildings in Rome gives you a real sense for how to put these things together in space, where they sit on a chronology, where they sit on a timeline. So much of history can be inaccessible because it's so rich and complicated. And I feel like knowing some of the shortcuts to that narrative, that history, really helps people enhance their experience for visiting the city, and that's what I was aiming to do. Speaker 3 (3:52) You know, I think it's easy to underestimate what ancient people were capable of because you stand there and you look at the Basilica Maxentius, and it's like it's a wall, a ruined wall on the edge of a football field. And you're looking at this thing, and it's got a few big arches. And then you see little broken nubs on the top of that, and you realize, Holy cow! That is just one wall. Those huge niches were side niches. And if you look at the nubs, you can extend them all the way across that football field of the size of a vacant lot. And then you pave it with beautifully cut marble and fountains and elegant people. It's just hard to get your brain around it. I know you feature the Baths of Caracalla in your book. And when you wander through the Baths of Caracalla, you can almost see it, but... You need a little help, don't you? Speaker 4 (4:42) You need a little help. You get to squint, and that's what's great about finding places where there's just enough intact from the ancient world to help you remember what the rest of it looked like. That's the pantheon for me. You go in the pantheon, you look at the floor, and then you realize every building looked like this. It's like this is as beautiful as it is. It stands out because of its uniqueness in the modern era. The ancient Roman world was full of buildings that were beautified in their own way, but they're just... they were everywhere and the whole city looked like that. And so at one time it's very romantic to have that vision and then the other, there's a sense of sadness for not being able to experience it or at least maybe that's where my narrowness comes out. Speaker 3 (5:22) Well, there was, I have to always remind myself that there were centuries of time when people had no luxury of appreciating history or art. All they wanted to do was get a roof over their head and feed their kids. And for centuries, I just learned this last year, they had kilns. on the sites of the greatest buildings of ancient Rome. And for centuries, they would break up the marble, feed it into that kiln, and turn it into material that could be used for some crude kind of concrete and mortar to build buildings in the Middle Ages. And these kilns, they literally chewed up and munched up and dissolved ancient Rome. And today, it's built into medieval buildings that we don't hardly pay attention to. And it leaves the puzzle with a lot of missing pieces, doesn't it? Speaker 4 (6:07) It does. It also is where the term the Eternal City gets its name because that is actually, as tragic as it is to us, is a continuation of a longstanding Roman tradition because the ancient Romans pillaged even older, even more ancient buildings for building materials as well. And so it is a—think of graffiti in the same way. If you go to Rome and you see the graffiti on these ancient monuments. your modern sensibilities, it's offensive. But then you remember, ah, so much of what we know from ancient Rome comes from surviving graffiti that someone etched on a wall in a building that got buried and excavated 2,000 years later. And now we know about how much people charge for bread or wine or other services widely available in the ancient world. And so it is heartbreaking, but it is also the continuation of a longstanding Roman tradition. Yeah, Speaker 3 (6:56) that's how history unfolds. Philip Barlag hosts a podcast called The Greats of History. His affinity for the Roman Empire shows in the books he's written. Right now on Travel with Rick Steves, we're looking at what he's uncovered in The History of Rome in Twelve Buildings, a travel companion to the hidden secrets of the Eternal City. Philip's also written The Leadership Genius of Julius Caesar, Modern Lessons from the Man Who Built an Empire, His latest title is Evil Roman Emperors, the Shocking History of Ancient Rome's Most Wicked Rulers, from Caligula to Nero and more. His website is philipbarlag.com. Philip, in your book, you wrote, nothing has a need for curation like a trip to Rome. Be our guide right now and our curator. I'm standing on the Via Sacra. This is that common... The Roman form is the common grounds where the people, the tribes that lived on the seven hills around that... got together and traded, and that was the spark, the way I understand it, that lit the flame of Rome 700 years before Christ. And from that little community grew this empire. It lasted for 1,000 years. Standing on Via Sacra at the height of the Roman Empire in the first 200 years after Christ, what would you feel? How can you help us know what it's like to stand there during a procession surrounded by all of these towering marble buildings? We think of them as white, but they were... garishly painted, and you have all sorts of action going on. How can you bring that to life for us? Help us. Speaker 4 (8:27) Soldiers, armed soldiers were not allowed in ancient Rome. They were expressly prohibited. There was one exception, is that the Senate, the governing body, granted a conquering general a ceremonial parade. In that case, he could bring his troops through the city and he would march his enemies in front of him as trophies of war. If he'd killed his enemies, they would put up floats with their effigies. so that the citizens could still boo the image of the vanquished foe. And the general, to prove their success, their prowess, and to demonstrate their largesse, would throw big feasts and toss treats to the crowd. And they would host banquets and feasts all over the city. They would set up tables right there in the forum and invite on the dime, so to speak, of the generals. So you imagine that you're a poor everyday Roman, a rank-and-file citizen just living subsistence. And some general has gone off and they've conquered a foe. And now they have you have civic pride and you're attending this parade and you're standing on the Via Sacra and the chariot goes by and you've never seen a Roman legionary in their full regalia. And you get to throw and you cheer and you you get to feast and drink and party. And you're all toasting that one conquering general who, by the way, has someone whispering in their ear the whole procession down the Via Sacra. Remember, thou art mortal. Remember, thou art mortal. To remind them not to let this go to their head because this is a transient example. And that all went right down the Via Sacra in the concluding moments of that march through the city. Speaker 3 (10:01) And then the parade's over and you come back the next morning with your son or your daughter and you stand in front of the Arch of Septimius Severus. Yes. and you interpret some of the propaganda on that arch to teach your child what the story is. What would you see in that propaganda? Speaker 4 (10:15) Well, I think what you would first notice is what's missing. There are some big chunks taken out of the Arch of Septimius Severus, and unlike a lot of ancient monuments, it's not decay or degradation over the years. It was a deliberate act. Septimius Severus had two sons, Caracalla and Geta, and they hated each other, and they fought, and they feuded, and when their dad died, they went to war with one another. And after Caracalla eventually wins, by the way, having get a murdered in the arms of their mother and then prohibiting her from showing any public mourning over his death, lest he kill her, too. He damned the memory of his younger brother. And part of that is to excise any imagery of the damned. And so when you see the big chunks taken out. of the Arch of Septimius Severus, what you're looking at is where Geta would have been when his dad built the monument before the brothers decided to try to kill one another. Speaker 3 (11:10) And apart from all these grand triumphal arches and all these grand temples, you've got little intimate glimpses at life. You've got doors still swinging on the same hinges that they've swung on for 2,000 years. Is that right? Speaker 4 (11:23) Yes. The Pantheon's the most notable example. Some of the doors that were cast in ancient Rome have been repurposed into more modern buildings like San Giovanni on Laterano. Speaker 3 (11:34) In Speaker 4 (11:34) the forum, there's, I think, a very moving