Why 90% of Projects Fail & How Leaders Can Build Better Projects | Antonio Nieto x Shekhar Natarajan

Tomorrow, Today - Shekhar Natarajan

In this episode of 'Tomorrow, Today,' Shekhar Natarajan interviews Antonio Nieto, a renowned figure in project management, about the hidden challenges

Key takeaways

• The real driver of project success is not tools or strategy but the people involved and their ability to collaborate effectively.
• 90% of projects fail due to human factors—poor team dynamics, lack of psychological safety, and misaligned leadership—not technical shortcomings.

Main topics

• Why most projects fail
• Leadership and team dynamics in project success

Notable quotes

"The real driver of success of a project is the people."

"Project management is something dirty. It's not something fancy. It's not strategy."

Conclusion

Antonio Nieto's journey—from personal failure and professional rejection to becoming a leading voice in project

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) The true value creation for companies in the future will not be operations, it will be the projects that you invest and deliver. Speaker 1 (0:13) Yeah, because I'm a big failure in my life. Speaker 1 (0:20) The real driver of success of a project is the people. Speaker 2 (0:28) I always wondered why people don't celebrate failures. Speaker 1 (0:37) You're fired. Because Project Wilderness is something dirty, it's not something fancy, it's not strategy. Speaker 2 (1:11) It's such a great pleasure today to welcome Antonio. Antonio is like the god of project management. And so it's an incredible honor to have him. Wonderful guy. A lot of knowledge. Everyone considers him to be absolutely brilliant. And I think this conversation is going to be so much fun. Speaker 1 (1:34) Thank you, Shikhar. A pleasure to be here with you. I loved your podcast. I love what you do with Tomorrow Today. So thank you for having me. Thank you so much. Antonio, Speaker 2 (1:44) let's start actually with the very, the beginning phases of your life, right? Like, you know, so project management came naturally to you as part of like PricewaterCooper. Yeah. You know, and spending time there. So kind of take us back. Not to PricewaterhouseCoopers, but like the formative years that took you there. That actually got you settled in. Yeah, Speaker 1 (2:09) so I have a bit of a not standard grow on life because my father used to work for the Spanish Airlines in Iberia. So I was born in Madrid, but at the age of two, he was moved to Mexico City. So I spent 11 years growing up in Mexico City. Speaker 1 (2:31) with my brothers. I have three brothers, so four kids. And we grew up in Mexico until I was 12. I went to German school in Mexico. My parents thought that German was going to be the language of the future. They got that wrong, but I got a good education. And from there, one of the painful moments of my life was when I was... nine years old. My parents were living in Mexico and they sent me one month to Germany to learn German. I was going to the school, so they assumed I was speaking German. So they left me one month in an internal house, this school, with nine years old. I didn't understand anything. And my parents were like, I don't know, 10,000 kilometers away. We could call just once per week. So it was, I felt like what's going on with my life with nine years old left here in Germany. Looking backwards, good moment. It was painful. So then from that moment, I went one year back to Germany. When I was 13, I took my second brother. Speaker 1 (3:56) And he was nine at the time. He spent one year crying in Germany. It was tough. It was very tough. But my parents thought that by being tough early ages, you become stronger, resilient. You need to, you learn to navigate. You learn to connect with other cultures. And from Germany, I moved to Italy. My father was there, the station manager in Rome. So I spent four years in Rome. I did my last year of high school in the U.S. Rhode Island in Providence. So it was like the smallest state in the U.S. I thought the U.S. is California and they sent me to Rhode Island. There was not much. Nice place. And then I decided to study university in Madrid. I'm from Madrid, so I wanted to go back to my roots. And then I did four years and then back to Germany to do one of these last exchange. And I started my career outside working in the Netherlands and then I joined PwC. So very global kind of upbringing, always coming back to Spain for Christmas, for the summer. We could fly for free. So you had that flexibility and my parents were writing, pushing me to feel Spanish, even if I didn't grow in Spain. And that's something I'm thankful for. But you can see already. that it's not a normal upbringing. Speaker 2 (5:28) So tell me like your experience in PwC, like, you know, the things that like you remember the most. Speaker 1 (5:35) Yeah. Yeah. Well, PwC, I have been carrying this weight since I was a kid. That was, I was a terrible student, really, really. Speaker 1 (5:50) I just didn't enjoy class. I didn't understand anything. I was bad at memorizing. I, of course, loved sports. I loved the other things that are, but my kind of memory was very short. I was nervous. I didn't like to speak in public. I was panicking. So all the bad things I managed to pass. So there were a few people worse than me that made it. Speaker 2 (6:15) But Speaker 1 (6:15) I always felt like. kind of a bit, not a loser, but just something was missing. And in joining PwC, one of these moments were, okay, I've achieved something that is not so bad. And in PwC, I started to focus very early on projects. I did some admin work before, like order entry and following orders and following logistics. But I found that super boring. And at one point they asked me, do you want to join this project, which we're building a shared service center for Europe? And I said, yeah, I've never done a project. Let's see. And I love that. It was amazing. Every day was chaos. Every day was different. You had to use your brain. You met new people. And there was a challenge in it. Like you said, like you didn't ever use your brain. Yeah. Exactly. It fell and suddenly I'm using... You thought like you had a brace. Finally. Hallelujah. Hallelujah. So that was the moment where I felt good. Is that why they gave you Thinkers 50? Yes. That's really wise sector. You went from zero to like thinking. Finally, this guy woke up a bit later. So that was... I was very good with language. I was very good with culture, with people, but not with the brain, you know, the memorizing. It took me a while. So in PwC, I grew up the usual up or out. So I was going up. That was good. It was not working. I felt better than studying. And at one point in these consulting firms, so I was specializing in projects and change and transformation. There was the year 2K. I don't know if you remember. Every company was. panicking and there was a lot of projects on that space. Yeah. What Speaker 2 (8:13) would happen once like 2008, like how they have to think of it. Speaker 1 (8:17) Yeah. It was like the doomsday because the- Onward, who doesn't have the G8? Yeah. That was, I don't know who invented that panic moment, but they made a lot of money. Yeah. We too. So that was projects, that was change, that was fear, that was resistance. And I love that. I found already early on that projects were difficult, but my fascination went more on how do companies that have thousands of projects do it? If one is difficult, how does a big company, I don't know, bought a phone, any big company, how do they run? Even small companies, how do you run 100 projects at the same time while you're running your company? And that was kind of always my fascination. And I was going up, I was doing projects. Right on projects fail. Yeah. Why projects fail? So that was also a big driver. How is it possible? Done something that we've done for 15 years. We should find out how can we do it better, right? There must be, it's not like rocket science. It's just people and strategies and tools and organization and culture. But there must be a way that we can increase those numbers. And so that was my triggers to focus on this topic. But the bigger trigger, Shakir, was... I was convinced that every company needed help on this topic. So I made this pitch to become a partner in these consulting firms. You need to come up with a business idea and a business plan. You say, hey, partners, if you trust me with my idea, give me a couple of millions. I return that with you. Okay, I'll make you four millions per year. My idea to become partner. was let's build something around project advisory or project management advisory services to offer to all our clients. And I was convinced. I had no doubt. 10 years working on this topic. I make my pitch. I celebrate it. I thought, I'm partner tomorrow. There's no doubt. One party, I pay the whole drinks for the whole bar. I was convinced. Partner is money, right? The day after. They said, I'm so sorry. Yes. Yeah. Speaker 2 (10:33) The Speaker 1 (10:33) managing partner. It's the antibody. Exactly. So, Tonio, you were great yesterday. We love your passion. But this is not for us. You're fired. What? You're fired. Because project management is something dirty. It's not something fancy. It's not strategies. Why would they fire Speaker 2 (10:51) you? You just proposed something. If they didn't like the proposal, they could have said, stay in your job and keep doing what you do. Speaker 1 (10:57) They didn't believe that we could sell project management for high fees. They said, we can find a project manager for... No, Speaker 2 (11:03) but why would they fire you? If you just made a proposal, you could have not been a partner. Yeah, Speaker 1 (11:09) I could have gone for the internal track. So you just do internal projects, but... That option was on the table, but I said, no way. I want the bigger thing. So thank you. So that kind of was I was shaking. I couldn't be the partners. Smart people, business people thought that projects and probably when I was something dirty tactical. And that wasn't like my big way. I didn't know what to do with my life. I did not know what to do with my career. Should I focus on what I believe or should I just go into marketing or finance or just follow the normal tracks like anyone? And how did you reconcile with Speaker 2 (11:47) that moment? Because job loss or change is such a common phenomenon now. Speaker 1 (11:53) Yes. Everyone goes through that. Everyone. And I think we are not prepared, but it's one of the best moments in your career. is going through the job losses to reconsider what you want to do in life. Not what other people want you to do, but what you like to do, what you like to be spending a big part of your life. And for me, that was that moment of, I didn't see it very clear. It took me like three months to know what I wanted to do. And I really was, let's go for the easy track. Let's do what everybody does. I'll have a normal life. I'll do whatever. Maybe I become manager, director and so on. But somehow I felt, no, I need to change. It became like a mission for me, but for many other people. You Speaker 2 (12:43) were like, how dare do they actually do Speaker 1 (12:44) that? Speaker 2 (12:44) Yeah. Speaker 1 (12:46) Yeah. Exactly. I need to get back on this. Speaker 1 (12:51) Indeed, there was a revenge feeling too. And that just marked, I was lucky. I could find a job quickly. Do you know, once you go into these consulting firms, they have a strong network of alumni. So at that moment, they were looking for somebody who could run projects at big scale. And I was hired by a bank. XPWC was the HR head. So I was like post-major integration, which is just projects. So I was lucky to. have very interesting jobs in corporates that are well-known, but I was not fully satisfied. So that led me to have this dual career, two tracks. Focused corporate, but not willing to be like the CEO or just doing my job while learning, helping. But my passion was in parallel. That research, that writing, that PMI, being the chairman, all these things was side career. Got it, got it. So you recognize this situation, Shakir? Speaker 2 (13:52) Yeah, yeah. No, no, I recognize because a lot of my friends are also going through it. The Speaker 1 (13:55) same, yeah? Yeah, yeah. It's part of life. Nothing is forever. Speaker 1 (14:02) The more you become resilient, the better. Speaker 2 (14:06) Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it's fortunately for me, like, you know, I got pulled into the roles a lot. Yeah. I saw Pepsi, Coca-Cola, Disney. You've been all over that. I got pulled into some of them and then God was fortunate putting me in other places. God and yourself too. I know, like, but like, some of this is like pre-destined, Speaker 1 (14:32) pre-ordering. Yeah. You can never have your script written. Speaker 2 (14:36) Yeah. You don't write it, someone writes it. Speaker 1 (14:39) Yeah. And then you see it. Okay. And then I got to manage the project. Speaker 2 (14:46) I Speaker 1 (14:47) got to Speaker 2 (14:47) run Speaker 1 (14:47) the project of my life, you know. Yeah. I mean, I already reached out. I'm running as a sponsor. You have a sponsor. Yes. That's the biggest thing. Speaker 1 (14:56) I need to tell you something very funny later about God. Yes, yes, yes. Speaker 2 (15:02) So GlaxoSmithKline. Yeah, Speaker 1 (15:06) BGSK, GlaxoSmithKline. Speaker 2 (15:08) So you ran the project management office. Yeah. And I'm sure like, you know, basically that's very different than... PwC and or like projects that you do with like a bank or yes you know yeah Speaker 1 (15:23) integration Speaker 2 (15:23) stuff Speaker 1 (15:24) that Speaker 2 (15:25) you do yeah like some companies um because it's all time sensitive yes drug discovery yes and some someone's life is dependent on exactly Speaker 1 (15:34) so Speaker 2 (15:35) how do you how do you kind of manage that change like projects become much more critical in certain contexts versus others yeah Speaker 1 (15:45) I think From PwC, they have lots of projects. It's their core business running projects for companies. So that was okay. Is that why projects Speaker 2 (15:55) fail? Because PwC will have a lifeline contract? I love that. I Speaker 1 (16:02) hope this is not recorded. Speaker 1 (16:06) No, I have a big theory. I think consulting firms and not just PIDO. One of the reasons why projects take so long is I think consulting firms, the longer, the more money it may, right? One thing I advocate in my book is we should be stopping projects. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Stop it. But there's somehow inertia to keep them running, even if they're going to fail, because there is some benefit. So I have not proven, but I have that feeling that you just mentioned. Speaker 2 (16:42) There is a strong correlation for sure. Speaker 1 (16:45) But to your point on GSK, yes, when you come in banking, it's about efficiency, it's about compliance, it's about regulation, all these things, very important, a lot of technology. Do you know, I don't know if you've heard that, but today in a bank, there's more IT people than bankers. which makes you think, where's the future? Where's the eye coming to this picture, right? So if you will have more technology, people running companies, except of designers and product development, where are we going? But in GSK, the nice thing is that you see the impact is on people's living and life and healthier living. And so you feel more pressure. And one thing that they do very well is they're highly prioritized. In most companies, nobody has a clue how many projects they have. Most people don't know what are the top projects. In most industries, they don't know it. In pharma, they know. They know where they're putting the big bets. They know where they can have bigger impact, when they can save more lives. They do quite a lot of non-for-profit because even if they make good money, they have a bigger cost to help in Africa, malaria. In GSK, we built vaccines that we were never going to make money, but malaria is something that will help a lot. So I think there's that social kind of consciousness of, okay, let's make big money, but also think about the other people that cannot afford it. So it's really, you elevate the project management to a higher level. The other challenge on the other side is... To do projects, you need people. And many people in GSK or pharma, they have an operational role. They have to produce the vaccines. These machines have to produce 24 hours, 24-7. So you cannot take a lot of time of these people to do project work because then you impact the supply and the production. So the friction is there. How can I get more time from the people on the shop floor? to build new things and that's been always the bigger challenge right but the projects there is great to do projects in in this context so Speaker 2 (19:02) because the the reason why i wanted to unpack um this is to understand the reasons why projects fail yeah one reason is Speaker 2 (19:17) like incentive problem. Speaker 1 (19:19) Totally. Speaker 2 (19:20) Right. Once basically if there's an incentive to prolong, then you keep dragging it on. Yeah. Like, you know. Yeah. And you're trying to build Eiffel Speaker 1 (19:27) Tower for Speaker 2 (19:28) your life. Speaker 1 (19:29) Yeah. Speaker 2 (19:29) That's one problem. The second is not having constraints put on you just basically drags that whole, the criticality of time in GSK. Yeah. Is one of the drivers I would think. Completely. Is one of the drivers I would think, right? Yes. Yes. But, you know, in that case, because it is so critical, are there more checks and balances? Are the projects generally longer as well? Yeah, they're longer. Speaker 1 (19:59) So would you have more success because Speaker 2 (20:01) it's already longer Speaker 1 (20:02) and already delayed? One thing to make projects successful, especially the new ones, you need to test, you need to try. And that's what they do very well with these pharma projects is that they take zero risks. You can be investing billions in a new drug, but if it fails once, the whole project is dead. So there are extra help. It's not like when you are building a website and you throw it and it doesn't work, who cares, right? Or an app and you send it and no. A drug has to be perfect. It's not a car. A plane, of course, has to be perfect. But there's very few projects that perfection. And you want that when you're putting something in your body that is perfect and that has things. So that's why it takes much longer. The big revolution happened, Shakil, when we had to develop vaccines for the COVID. Usually a vaccine takes 10 to 12 years. Yeah. How come Moderna, Pfizer, AstraZeneca, they did it in 12 months? Yeah. Not 12 years, 12 months. So what happened? And I love that. I study very much how can you do something that takes 12 years in just 10 %? And it's obvious that anybody can do that. You can do it. But the criteria that you put in place. are critical. You need to respect them. The sponsorship, the CEO involvement, fully dedicated resources, sharp focus, everybody aligned. All the things that we thought never work, they work here. Speaker 2 (21:41) But there was also limited Speaker 1 (21:42) testing. Yes, yes. Yeah, there were some level of testing, but they all were taking some bit of risk too. Yeah. They couldn't do the full testing. Yeah, yeah. I think that's it. Because I became a recipient of that problem. Really? How come? I don't know. Speaker 2 (21:57) I got to tell you. Tell me. It's a long story. No, I want to hear. It's not like as sexy as project management. Speaker 1 (22:05) Okay, I don't mind. I like every topic. Anyway, so you brought it up. Let me tell that. Tell me. So, Speaker 2 (22:11) I was one of the early participants of the vaccine. Speaker 1 (22:16) Really? Wow. So, Speaker 2 (22:18) I used to do quite a lot with the government and basically like I got like into the control group. And so I took the first Pfizer shot even before Pfizer came out. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, wow. And then like, you know, before Pfizer got released into the market or just after it got released into the market, my boss actually, who at the time was an American Eagle, you know, he had me take shot along with my wife because we just had a son. Ah. And so I took the second shot. Yeah. Which is also five. Then I took a Moderna, which was, there were two versions of it. Like it was a dual shot and a single shot. Yeah. And so I took the dual shot equivalent as well. Yeah. And then, and then I, so by the time I was done, like with like two years, I must have had like six shots. Amazing. No, it was not amazing. Speaker 2 (23:18) Let me tell you what happened. So I have this heart condition basically called bradycardia. Okay. And that's actually by cuspid. So basically I have only two valves. Everyone has like three valves. Three valves. Like this. Yeah. Mine looks like an eye. Speaker 1 (23:38) Right. Speaker 2 (23:38) Like an eye. Yeah. So and I didn't know that. Like so basically like every time I used to take a shot two weeks later. I used to feel a lot of palpitation. My heart used to feel like, you know, like, and I used to go get like admitted and then I never like thought about it, right? Like, you know, what is the connection between vaccine and other things? And then I go to India after a long time and I was telling them like, you know, I wanted to do all my TMTs and everything. And then they said, you know, casually they said like, okay, like, you know, what else were you doing around this time? I said nothing. Like, I don't think so. I don't remember. But like that one date actually hit me pretty hard. And they said like anything between those two weeks, like two to four weeks. And I said, hey, like I took a shot. And the guy looked at my... Those days you would have a vaccine pass. Yeah, Speaker 1 (24:32) you had the pass. Just Speaker 2 (24:33) like you would have like the air pass, right? So, and the guy just kept like... plumbing through and then like, you know, he looked at all the pictures on the other side when it was admitted. There seems to be a correlation. There was no causality. Speaker 1 (24:48) Yeah. Speaker 2 (24:49) But, you know, he said, this could be the reason. I said, hmm, like maybe I should stop taking. Maybe there was excess dosage of that. Speaker 1 (24:57) Yeah. Maybe it was to be a lot in two months, six shots. Six shots. It was like, it was not two months, but like the Speaker 2 (25:05) first shot was early. Then, Then I took one, then it was two shots after that, like it was two shot equivalent. And then another one in six months and another one in six months. So like, you know, by the time like in two years, I took probably six, seven shots. Yeah. Well, Speaker 1 (25:19) that's a lot. You get the COVID or no? I Speaker 2 (25:22) did not get COVID at all. No. Like I felt sick once. Yeah. I felt like crap, but like I never got COVID. Speaker 1 (25:30) Okay. Well, I've never met somebody that went through that early trial. Speaker 2 (25:35) And I visited van houses. I did everything. So obviously the vaccine worked. Yes. Speaker 1 (25:39) You're here. I'm Speaker 2 (25:41) living. Speaker 1 (25:43) Wow. Speaker 2 (25:44) Thanks for sharing. Arachne. Speaker 1 (25:48) Thank you for saving our lives. Speaker 2 (25:51) So there was, so you were saying, so let's go back again. Basically one is the incentive. The second is basically kind. or the constraint of time, the criticality that you assign. Speaker 1 (26:03) The Speaker 2 (26:03) third one you mentioned is basically focus. Yeah. Which is super critical. Super critical. And then you also talked about like being deadline driven. Which is very important. Because that becomes the gate to understand the success or failure or something. Speaker 1 (26:20) Yes. So what else is important? Just maybe to make it simple. Shakir, there's three big elements that matter in any project. Transformation, small, big. First, how you define that project. If you know how the scoping, which is the requirements, if there's alignment with the team on the scoping. understanding why we do the project, the business case, the benefits. Most companies do kind of a business case, but nobody knows the benefits. They're not measurable. So doing the project right, making a good cash chart, doing risk management. that's not enough. So you can be the best project manager in the world, launch a project in a big company, in a big bank, and it will fail. Why? Because there's a second layer which is the leadership team. So the leaders play a huge role and often they don't know it. So it's not just about launching projects. Leaders love to launch projects. Kickoff meeting is the nicest word in every organization. A kickoff meeting gets excitement, right? And if they don't invite you to a kickoff meeting, you get angry. but who shows up in the second meeting where you're nobody, right? But launching. And the leaders are the ones that prioritize projects, put focus or no focus, and then they need to follow up. So if you are like the CEO of Pfizer, he was 100 % dedicated to the vaccine. Vaccine. That kind of engagement. Steve Jobs was spending two days per week in the iPhone, the