India's Gig Economy, Education & The Future of Work | Chetan Bhagat | Tomorrow Today

Tomorrow, Today

In this episode of Tomorrow Today, host Shekhar Natarajan interviews acclaimed author Chetan Bhagat about his personal journey and the broader

Key takeaways

• Chetan Bhagat posits that creativity is a product of boredom, citing his pre-internet childhood as foundational to his storytelling.
• The Indian gig economy is described as 'P2R' (poor to rich), where platforms harness the labor of the desperate to serve the affluent.

Main topics

• Childhood and Creativity
• The Gig Economy (Zomato/Swiggy)

Notable quotes

My origin story should not be the destination story.

Conclusion

The episode serves as a profound reflection on how India can navigate

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) If you have a rat whose tail is on fire, he's gonna run the Speaker 1 (0:02) fastest. But at the end of the day, I was still a rat with a tail on fire. My origin story should not be the destination story. That was in my head. I Speaker 2 (0:19) was very lucky to be in somewhat boring times. Because creativity only comes from boredom. Speaker 1 (0:30) Colonization is algorithmic expansion. So whatever I think is right and however I think is right is what I'll enforce on you. Speaker 3 (0:37) I Speaker 2 (0:41) want a happy life, make some money, make some muscles and make time for people you love. Speaker 1 (1:13) Welcome to yet another show of Tomorrow Today with Shekhar Natarajan. It's my incredible honor to have my next guest. This is our 43rd episode that we are shooting. Chetan Bhagat. He is like a phenomenal writer. Someone who's changed the landscape in India when it comes to literacy and how people consume like books and fiction and storytelling. So Chetan. I like, you know, I'm, I've been super excited and I wanted to talk to you for almost like six months now. I'm trying to chase down these guys. Like, you know, like how do I talk to Chetan? Because I think you are going to, this conversation I feel is going to be the most intellectual and most inspiring because you're one, like you're a creative guy too. I think like you see the world in a very different way and you see it from different lenses. Um, and. You also are the father of two kids who basically like, you know, they are living in a different world than the world you inherited. And so it's going to be a fun conversation and I want to unpack a lot of things with you. Thank you, Speaker 2 (2:18) Shekhar, for having me. And I've been seeing some of the work you guys are hearing about the work you guys have been doing. And it's really an inspiration to see Indians doing so well. they are like at the cutting edge of AI and to angelic AI and like looking at AI with good intentions and stuff like that. It's really good. So yeah, I flew down from Dubai for this and I am very excited to be here. Speaker 1 (2:39) Yeah. Thank you so much. Like, you know, and thanks for making the time because, um, uh, and I got a lot of like interesting thoughts that I want to unpack with you. So, uh, let's think like you, I'm thinking like you for a second. So instead of like starting early days, the day you were born and other things let's basically like you know fast forward like 12 years when you were a 12 year old kid and uh you're dining with your parents you know father being a colonel my mother like a researcher uh like and were you writing a story at the time were you writing a joke at the time at the dinner table or like tell me more about like chetan bhagat 12 year old okay so Speaker 2 (3:20) grade 12 i'm sorry 12 year old i must have been in grade I don't know, seven or eight. I think I was an average to above average in class. So there was no signs of that I'll do anything major in life. It was all, I mean, mainly thinking about my first crush at that time. And it's that age when you first start noticing girls before that. Before that, it's like, you know, boys are boys and boys are cool and girls are icky. And you know, like, and that 12 is like, you're like, no, this is where the interesting thing is. So I think it was that. I don't think the career thing had kicked in yet. One thing though, like storytelling itself wasn't there, but there was this first interest in writing. We were forced to write articles for our school magazine, like for junior kids. And I remember I was also forced. But when I wrote it and saw my name in print, it was a very big deal then. Because you never saw your name printed anywhere. Today, of course, everywhere. But that printed font, you only saw your name handwritten. So to see it in a magazine was amazing. So that gave the writing bug to me. So I think there were early signs of that. Also, Shekhar, at that time, there was no internet. Even TV and all wasn't much in India at that time. Entertainment was very limited. books and stuff like that. So we would read. And also, I remember, occasionally we'd see movies, pre-internet era, pre-proper cable television era. So we would occasionally see movies, me and my younger brother, in a theater, maybe VHS had just come. And then I remember, there would be these boring afternoons, where we would just make up film stories and tell each other. Amitabh Bachchan used to be big. So you'd say like, he'll come and he'll hit this guy. I did not know this then, but those were the seeds for me being able to create stories. That's why I always tell people I was very lucky to be in somewhat boring times because creativity only comes from boredom. It's like the mud and a beautiful Lotus comes from there. You have to create that boredom, which these days is not there. If I was 12 now and I would have had an iPad. I don't think I would have done. So while there was no grand plans being made of becoming a writer or anything, I think some of the foundational stuff, whereas an imagination that leads to story, because in the boring Delhi, often it's really hot. You can't even go out and play. You would just make up stories. What if Amitabh Bachchan did this in that movie? Now, these were all imaginary things, but we were creating stories and started writing articles in my school magazine that was seeing my name in print. So I think some of the desire to write one day was created around this 12 year time. Speaker 1 (6:11) And so like your childhood home, where was it? We Speaker 2 (6:18) were in Delhi, in West Delhi. It was a tough childhood, maybe not as tough as yours. We were not eight to a room, but it was rough because there was always a shortage of money somehow. Speaker 3 (6:30) And Speaker 2 (6:31) I thought that's just how people lived. like money is i think that's how most of india lives even today uh where money is less yes and life is to be like life's main purpose is to economize and that's why indians are such value seeking consumers i still am i mean where i don't need to be as much so i think money was less my father was very strict um colonel like yeah and very expected all of us to be soldiers too. So it's funny now, but it was very stressful. And I remember like not really like feeling very good about myself. I used to be overweight. I used to get yelled at a lot by my father. My father and mother would fight quite a bit. Not the most pleasant of surroundings, but... you know you can use that sometimes in life to say it can go either way you can say i i can't do anything now i'll just you know start drinking or become a you can go take the wrong path because what can i do i'm the victim of this abusive kind of household or whatever or you can say i need to do something to get the hell out of there Speaker 2 (7:44) And that's when I said, you know what, if I get through an IIT, like that is the toughest college. Maybe I'll have a totally different life, which it was a totally different life after Speaker 1 (7:54) that. Yeah. So the first book that you remember that broke you open, like because every everyone has that in their life. Yes. At some point in time. Mine was the Atlas of the Moon. So like, you know, I used to, I grew up in slums in India, second biggest in India, second biggest slum. Which one? Addagutta. Okay. In second rabbi. And so basically that's where I, we started our journey and there used to be like a second rabbi library and I used to run and go find books. And the book that fascinated me the most was the Atlas of the Moon. It was all about like something that I never understood. Speaker 3 (8:34) So Speaker 1 (8:34) that book was actually like the foundational. for me for creativity perspective right now i became a very creative guy in the way i solve problems because of that thanks to that book so what was in your case you Speaker 2 (8:48) know of course while growing up we would read these uh murder mysteries there was hardy boys and Speaker 2 (8:55) famous five and all these things. These were interesting books, but they were not particularly in that way. It never inspired me that I want to write these. I remember when I was a little bit older, I read a book called catch 22 and it was very quirky and very funny. Joseph Heller. It's a classic and it is about the irony. And I was like, books can be really fun. That idea of books can be fun came through that book. And then I said, okay, this is what I would love to do someday to like write a book that people are just reading and laughing and, uh, and books as entertainment, which I know there's a mixed opinion on it. A lot of people feel books should not be entertaining. Books is Vidya and books are Gyan. But I don't think it would, like, I think if it's entertaining, it's more likely to be read. And I think it's Speaker 3 (9:45) a Speaker 2 (9:45) good thing when people read. But that book, I think, was something which I read. And I said, okay, I could do this. You know, I could. And then there would be R.K. Narayan's stories, Malgredi's. He would write in a very simple English. And I was like, there is a place for that. Because a lot of authors were like known in India at that time. Who would write complicated language. And very complex take on language. And I was like, okay. that's what you need to be to become a writer. But then you pick up a Marguerite days and you're like, Oh, it's just a simple storytelling. And I could take a shot at this. So I think these were some of the Speaker 1 (10:17) books. So like you, you mentioned about basically writing for your school. Yeah. So like, was there a certain reason that you were forced to write for the school? Well, there Speaker 2 (10:29) was this magazine that my school launched, Army Public School. And there were some pages given to the... primary school students. We were in class five, I remember. And it was actually Hindi. So we had a Hindi teacher, Mrs. Datta. She came and I think we were just under a lot of, she was under a lot of pressure because there were no articles given by my class. Speaker 1 (10:52) So Speaker 2 (10:53) one day she came and she said, we will not study today. Everybody sit down and write something. Speaker 2 (11:03) Me and my friends thought that's an excuse to just go out to the bathroom. Yeah. And they're not studying anyway. So we'll just like chit chat and roam around and come back. And, uh, we went and said like, she knew our gang. So all four of us wanting to go to the bathroom together. So she just pulled our ears and said, you are not going anywhere till you send, give me that article. So I sat down and wrote, I think I don't even remember what it was. It was like a little joke or something. I made up some, like the shortest possible. And I gave it. And then I went out. Because once you finish the article, you could go out. And then two months later, it took a long time at that time. The magazine came two months later. I forgot about it. And it was because it was just an anecdote kind of thing. It was like a senior student's article. And in the end, they put like a footnote kind of article was from me. And it said Chetan Bhagat or whatever. Fifth A. And I remember seeing that, like those letters and I'm like, wow, I'm somebody. Like it's the first recognition. I would carry that magazine everywhere. We have the DTC buses in Delhi, the state transport. And I would carry it with me and show it to people. Like, this is me, you know? I mean, I'm not like, don't underestimate me. I'm in class five, but I'm published. I mean, I write. and from that point on i gave articles every like i think it was a bi-monthly like no once in two months you know so i would give one article each time and that just grew and grew and even in iit i would give a lot of articles i would write plays i would write skits i think by then i had uh developed and i knew that stories is where my heart is like i want to do stories not just articles although i like articles but That was my unique strength. So I would do a lot of plays and skits and it's kind of the same thing. You're also writing in that. So that's how the force, but if she had not forced me that day and she had let me go to the toilet, I would have never discovered this. So it's funny. It's so accidental sometimes. That's why I tell kids of parents, like, you know, let your child be exposed to things. And like, you never know. I didn't know. The teacher didn't know. You never know what, what. talent lies in your kid and what he will take to or she will take to. Speaker 1 (13:22) So, uh, so the teacher you owe a lot, like, has she read like any of your books? I don't Speaker 2 (13:28) know. Speaker 1 (13:28) I mean, Speaker 2 (13:28) this Speaker 1 (13:28) is class Speaker 2 (13:28) five, Speaker 1 (13:29) you Speaker 2 (13:29) know, Speaker 1 (13:29) like, I Speaker 2 (13:29) don't know if she's still around, but yeah, I do owe a lot to her because she just, sometimes you need to get your ears pulled to get your journey started, you know? Speaker 1 (13:41) So. um your family talk to me a little bit about your family your grandparents where they came from you know i'm sure they're from pre-partition yes both Speaker 2 (13:51) of Speaker 1 (13:51) them yeah both both Speaker 2 (13:52) sides are from so i i obviously wasn't there then but they both the both sets came from um and save my mother's side they came from lahore i think and uh it's very close by i mean lahore to like Amritsar is like a, you could take an auto if, if the borders were open, um, 30 minutes, something like that. So they came to Delhi and they lived in tents. And my mother recalls that we would go to school and there will be a lot of relief agencies that come and they would say all the refugee kids raised their hands and then they would get something to eat or some clothes or something like that. And she said in my class, like 90 % of kids would raise their hands. They were all refugee kids. Speaker 2 (14:37) So, yeah, that's the, I mean, you know, when I look at the generational jumps that have been there, like literally being uprooted, kicked out of a country to live in a tent, survive on welfare from there, that was my grandparents. And then my mother, who then went on to do college, became an agricultural scientist in the government. My father was from the army, similar. story there. And then me here today, like sitting with you, unknown writer. I mean, it's quite an incredible journey to happen to some of us. And I think it was the Speaker 1 (15:17) generational wealth and others lost during the partition. They Speaker 2 (15:20) were not particularly wealthy, but there was a home. I mean, there's a home, there's a job. They were like, you know, my grand, like my Nana was a, like a lecturer. So it was a good job, but not like affluent or not like businesses and things like that. So, but you have to, it's quite something to come back to zero in this times of duress. And it's, we don't talk about that, that set of people, not just my grandparents, but there were millions. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, the whole of West Delhi, which is almost a caricature and people make fun of them for all the Punjabi mannerisms and all. I mean, I come from that background. but behind them is a huge story of resilience, which again, I don't want to start anything, but the South has not seen like the South never saw that level of strife. And maybe that's why culturally it's very different. You know, there's like, there's this perception that Punjabis are very aggressive and maybe we are so, because there is Speaker 1 (16:22) a survival instinct, you know? So is that what like propelled your mother? Because like in eight seventies and eighties and nineties. Like being in a profession like what she is in was not even considered like. I think my grandfather was Speaker 2 (16:37) into education. So he wanted his kids to be as educated as they can be. I think the education somewhere down, even now in India, middle-class fields, education is the only way out. Is that true? Not anymore. So much, unfortunately, or fortunately both it has. Yes. For a certain, like for 1 % of people. Yes. Because you better be in an A-grade college for it to be a game changer. Like just like, you know, if you're in a IIT and you do well there, not all IITs get remarkable opportunities. But if you're in an IIT and you do well there, it can be game changer. And therefore you can say that the education changed it for you. But if you're not in that, like maybe like the NITs are okay. But if you're, the moment you go a little bit, a few rungs lower, it's not necessarily helping. It's still then the child's own resilience that brings similar with other fields, medicine, law, things like that. The elite set, yes, education can make a massive difference. If you crack the UPSC, your life will change. But that's very, very few. Speaker 3 (17:45) What Speaker 2 (17:46) happens to the rest? That's the bigger story, right? I mean, what happens to the 99 %? And we are seeing that in India. Like what happens is that... Speaker 2 (17:56) I don't know if I should say this. You are also an internet or like sort of that kind of entrepreneur. But I think a lot of businesses in India, the internet businesses, you know how you have B2B and B2C and all that. I think it's P2R. It's poor to rich. We have a lot of poor people and we have their labor available at a pittance. And almost more than half of the unicorns, they are basically, I wouldn't say exploiting. but definitely harnessing that poor packet packet the labor and desperation of the poor and make sure those services are available to the 30 million rich or whatever three percent rich we have or and that that is what is happening so in fact someone recently i uh was in the election panel when the tamil nadu elections happened and then vijay won there right and they said one of the reasons is that gen z supported him because the gen z was really frustrated Because in Tamil Nadu, everybody, and I think many states, everybody wants their son to be an engineer. Speaker 1 (19:00) They have to become. Hyderabad also. It's the same. If you're not an Speaker 2 (19:04) engineer, you're good for nothing. 6 lakhs, 600,000 engineers are coming every year. And there's not enough jobs. Firstly, the quality of that engineers and what are those engineering colleges are separate. And even if they are, how do you create? We have some manufacturing, but we have not had a boom. we had in China. So there's no way these kids can be... And then the parents have taken loans, sold agricultural land to make them the engineer. And now they don't have jobs. So they become, you know, food delivery riders, working for Zomato, working for Swiggy, working for all these companies, maybe like delivery parcels. Speaker 2 (19:48) While I have nothing against, I mean, all jobs are like, have this dignity of labor, but it's not what they set out to be. And the education did not change their life. So that was the question, right? And so they have to find unconventional ways. Now, like maybe become an entrepreneur or there are opportunities and you can, the person can come up other ways, but I definitely find there's this inflation of degrees. Everybody's issuing engineering degrees now. Speaker 1 (20:21) There is also school of technology and this and that. Non-conventional educational system. I mean, Speaker 2 (20:27) look at a Speaker 1 (20:27) company like Cognizant. Speaker 2 (20:30) Service company. Yeah, good company. Again, I have nothing against Swiggy and Zomato. One could even argue they're at least giving jobs. What is their fault? That's why I don't use the word exploit. They're not exploiting. They're just using a wide pool of hungry people who need to get a job. And they use it, somehow use technology to make like hundreds of thousands of them come together on bikes. And now all these other brands like Snabbit, I don't know if you've heard of Snabbit, right? They just, a helper comes to your house, cleans your house for 200 rupees. What is that? It's poor. Speaker 2 (21:04) labor democratized being you can call it democratized or like just packets little packets and you don't have to deal with like human rights or leave and vacation you don't have to deal with that somebody comes give me the service out you go it's also dehumanizing you very much you could say that she's going from seven houses a day to just clean the dishes you know, so, and I'm saying this to you because I, I know what, where you come from, what your philosophy is. This is a very big issue in India. And we have, we were a feudal society. We are still a feudal society, but if you're rich, it's defined by how many people are serving you, how much labor is you avoid in life is how well you're doing. Right. So. You know, you get printouts. Today I blink it and things like that. They're all what is actually happening. If you didn't have this cheaply, you can't run these companies in New York. They don't work. Yeah. Because you order a DoorDash pizza, it's $50 by the time it reaches you. Right? Because of the tips. So it's there, but it's limited. Here it's booming. It's like growing 40 % month on month. Why? Because you have endless pool of these young kids. But will they be happy with this? Will they have careers 20 years later when they are 40, 50, you know, where it's all going to go? It's, it's a very interesting, 30 times. Yeah. What will happen right now? You're young. Okay. I have a bike. I make 20,000 a month. I'm good. One day you're like, I never had a family. What do I do? I have a kid. How do I put him to school? Where's my career? And I'm tired. My back is hurting because I, so I think, Speaker 1 (22:48) And the service economy is getting disrupted with AI too. Like we'll get to that. Yes. So that, that is a whole new monster. This is something Speaker 2 (22:57) which is not discussed enough because it's neatly packed. It's like, you don't see the chicken getting slaughtered. It's just served you in your sandwich. So it's fine. Yeah. You don't see. And as a writer, one of my jobs is to have empathy. Speaker 2 (23:18) You have a full-time help. You can't help but notice that they have some issues. They need to go for a marriage. They are sick. Their child is sick. With these packets, I don't know who delivered my ice cream. I don't know what his backstory is. But it's happening. And I'm enjoying and like being very proud and saying, I Speaker 1 (23:40) just like ordered and Speaker 2 (23:41) I ordered it. You guys can't do this in the US. Look at it. Speaker 1 (23:44) I Speaker 2 (23:44) mean, my... toothpaste came in like 10 minutes yeah india is so amazing yeah it's amazing because somebody is doing the labor for you who maybe one can argue deserves better yeah Speaker 1 (23:56) absolutely right absolutely so i was like i was i was uh trying to uh sort of think through the the implications of what you're talking you tell me Speaker 2 (24:09) you lived in a slum Speaker 3 (24:10) tell Speaker 2 (24:11) me the back end of this what is the life of these people? They're probably living Speaker 1 (24:14) in those slums, right? Many of them are still living there. I mean, the people who we, like who come at our doorstep and give us our avocado toast. Speaker 2 (24:24) And then we say bye. Maybe we give a little tip, which apparently only 1 % of people in India give. So if people, please tip more. But no, I mean, if I'm getting a platform, why not us? But what's their backend? What are they doing? Like they must be living in those same kind of slums where you go out and they're tired by the end of the day and they have no life. Yeah. And Speaker 1 (24:46) that actually, uh, you know, kind of cascades into their day to day, more hatred, more violence. I'm actually very curious. Do they feel that resentment or do Speaker 2 (24:57) they kind of. fate accomplished because we, India is a bit like that also. Speaker 1 (25:01) Well, like, you know, you could take it either ways to your point, right? Like, you know, either you could resent like where you live or you just want to create escape velocity to get out. Right. And so for me, it was like, I had to condition my mind to get out, create the escape. Because my origin story should not be the destination story. That was in my head. So, and I, you know, I can completely relate with you. But like coming to the topic, right? Like, There was another thing that I'm actually noticing, like, uh, my next door neighbor, she's my, she's a darling sister of mine. Right. And, uh, so we grew up together, uh, love her to death. Um, and, uh, she had like a couple of heart attacks. Like she's young. She's like 47, 48 years old. And, um, basically they had to give her an injection for one and a half lakh. Speaker 2 (25:53) Okay. Speaker 1 (25:53) Like to control her, uh, cholesterol and bp and everything right and uh so i was we were trying to go pay uh the the the amount to the to one of this like multi-specialty hospitals and i was standing in the queue and then basically the guy in front of me was sitting there and the and the the guy the cashier was asking this guy to pay him 60 lakhs for an operation And when I look at the person who was paying 60 lakhs or willing to pay 60 lakhs, this guy looked like a farmer from another state. And I'm like, I'm just like thinking about like, what is he going to do? He's going to probably, like probably they told him like, you know, it's one of their loved ones. They're going to save the loved one. And they basically said like, you give us 60 lakhs and maybe we'll save that. Like we'll give you like a 90 % chance. And this guy is going to sell his life and his like property and everything. And he, because they just told the thing that he wanted to hear, we can save the person. Speaker 3 (26:55) Yeah. And Speaker 1 (26:55) this guy is in debt forever. While whatever, like, you know, uh, in one hour, Ambani makes like, you know, the rest of the country makes like in 428 years. Yeah. Right. So this, this huge disparity Speaker 2 (27:10) inequality is amazingly big shape because, and you know, I see some people and I know they're not being wrong. They say, India is in a great phase. We are seeing growth and there's so much opportunity. It's been like 11. But who's growing? But, you know, so in from their mirror, it's like that elephant story. Whoever touches. Whichever side of Speaker 1 (27:29) the Speaker 2 (27:29) elephant. Speaker 1 (27:29) So Speaker 2 (27:29) they are right. Yes. They are right that they are seeing some progress. They do. They are buying a better car every few years. They are seeing growth. They are moving to a better house. Maybe they saw the airport in their city improve. So like, you know, it's good. What the hell are you going on about? But there is this whole the K shape like one is going up and the other side which is not really. So we were talking about cognizant earlier. Yeah. I remember when I was in IIT. I mean 95. The salaries when we were getting out were like same one and a half two lakhs a year. It's still the same. Speaker 1 (28:08) For sure. Speaker 2 (28:09) Yeah. It's crazy. We never thought it was a huge salary then. Yes. It was like 10, 15. It's still the same. Yes. And you, if you get a job in Cognizant, it's a major win today. Yeah. 15, 20,000, it's like $200 a month. Yes. If you're lucky, which is like, you can work in McDonald's abroad for one, one shift and get that 10 hours, $28 an hour in New York city, probably easy. So. Speaker 2 (28:39) But what is amazing is that our country has this sense of acceptance and pretty low aspiration. There was a while in the 90s when we were growing up, maybe you're, you know, I say that aspiration skyrocketed. Yes. I don't think we are living in those times. I don't think there is that much aspiration anymore. When we were there. Yeah. Somehow they've adjusted and said, as long as I get a cheap data. I get a lot of free entertaining content to watch cricket. you know, big weddings of rich people, pornography. I get that magic kingdom in this little phone. And I get like relatively cheap food. Food is cheap in India. If you don't care much about hygiene and all, you can eat for 50 rupees one meal. 60, 70, 100 rupees a day. 200 a day. If you want to be a little dessert also. As long as you're eating carbs. Yeah, cheap. So they, in Hindi, they call it sasta data, sasta atta, Speaker 3 (29:47) which Speaker 2 (29:48) means data is cheap and dough art, like the flour is cheap. people are reasonably content, I think. So maybe you and I are the only ones who feel like, oh, there should be more. Because I don't see, that's why I was curious that when you were living in the slum, do people feel that they are suffering? Do they feel that this is like... Speaker 1 (30:10) There are a few who would basically definitely had the desire to get out. But a lot of people would be content. They're happy. They're smiling. They Speaker 2 (30:23) celebrate festivals. They play music and they dance. Speaker 1 (30:26) But I think now there is a growing sense of resentment coming in. That's why you see all of the shift in how Gen Z's and Gen A's and others are behaving. Because Speaker 2 (30:38) at the end of the day, the content is not real. You can't spend your life just watching content and not make anything of your own life. Even that is not easy now. Even getting a decent life in a slum in Bombay is not easy. Speaker 1 (30:54) Yeah. So tell me like one sentence about your mother and one sentence about your father. Like how critical, like what value system did they have for you? My mother, Speaker 2 (31:04) I think the biggest is she told me to be positive. She was in a bad marriage. She had a lot of responsibility. She had to do a job and raise kids, getting no support. In fact, negative support. But she found a way to be happy and to laugh and make light of situations. And generally, we have a positive outlook towards life that it's okay. Life is good. People are good. Because in your whole video, I saw this one biggest assumption. People are generally good. That humanity is worth saving. Yeah. Don't you think? It's a discussion. Maybe we are evil people. Why should we care? I mean, it's a mindset that people are good. People are both actually. We can discuss what human beings are from my read of my work on human beings, writing about them. But, so she had that and she taught that and