Zohran Mamdani

This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von

Theo Von interviews New York City Mayor Zohran Mamdani to discuss the systemic economic challenges facing New Yorkers. The conversation cove

Key takeaways

• Mamdani revealed a $12 billion NYC budget deficit, which was double the amount previously reported by the prior administration.
• One in four New Yorkers is living in poverty despite New York being one of the wealthiest cities in the world.
• A major $131.5 million settlement was secured against DoorDash for underpaying over 260,000 workers.
• The concept of 'shitification' is discussed as a driver of declining quality in services and products to maximize profit margins.
• Mamdani defines socialism not as government control, but as ensuring the government delivers essentials like housing and childcare to guarantee human dignity.

Main topics

• NYC Budget Mismanagement
• Socialism and Human Dignity
• Labor Rights and Corporate Accountability

Notable quotes

If you make justice hard, then we're going are going to end up with cruelty.

Conclusion

The episode provides a deep dive into the intersection of local munici

Transcript preview

Speaker 3 (0:00) He's the 112th mayor of New York City and one of the most talked about figures in politics. He's got a lot of big ideas and we're going to get into it. I'm thankful for his time. Today's guest is Mr. Zoran Mamdani. Speaker 3 (0:32) And if you got to move, Zoran, just, do you prefer Zoran? Speaker 2 (0:35) Yeah, I'm fine with that. Speaker 3 (0:36) Okay. Well, all right. Speaker 2 (0:40) Zoran is good. Theo, I assume, is fine. Speaker 3 (0:43) Yeah, that's fine, man. Thank you so much. No, please. There's a lot of folklore out there about who you are, right? And a lot of people have heard your name, but they don't know you. Yeah. You were born in Uganda. Yeah. You moved to New York at age of seven. Yeah. You were a rapper. for a little while, who wasn't. Um, Speaker 2 (1:02) but Speaker 3 (1:03) give me, uh, the two minute, give me the two minute. Who is Zoran Mamdani? Speaker 2 (1:10) I would say it starts and ends with being a New Yorker. As you said, I moved to our city when I was seven years old. My dad got a job here in New York City at Columbia. And so I grew up in the Upper West Side and went to middle school in the neighborhood, went to high school in the Bronx, Bronx Science. And then I left for college and came back to this city. And the thing that has always been a part of my life is this city, no matter what stage of my life I'm in. And to me right now, I have the greatest job in the world because every day I get to wake up, serve the same city that I've loved since I was seven years old. And I think especially with a view of how do we make this a city that not only everybody can love, but everybody can live in. Because a lot of people love this city, but not as many of them can live here. And that's because this is also most expensive city in the United States of America. Is Speaker 3 (2:01) that true? Speaker 2 (2:01) Yep. Wow. It's the third most expensive city in the world. Yeah. What am I talking about? I got to Speaker 3 (2:07) pay whenever I leave here. Yeah. And I'm Speaker 2 (2:09) not Speaker 3 (2:09) excited about it. It's an expensive place to be. What made you want to be mayor? Like I'm a comedian, right? you know, self-proclaimed, but there's some evidence of it, right? Because it's Speaker 2 (2:20) a Speaker 3 (2:20) weird thing to say. There's Speaker 2 (2:22) enough evidence of it. It's a weird Speaker 3 (2:23) thing to say though sometimes, but I'm a comedian because I need, like there's something I need people's approval, right? There's something I need when I go on stage. The laughter, I don't know what it is. I need to be seen. I don't know what it is. But being a mayor just, it seems like, you know, sometimes the mayor is like, you know, the guy in town who like finally wanted to be able to say, well, everybody picked me or like, you know, it becomes this sort of, I'm the hero kind of thing. Like why, like why, yeah, why do you want to be Speaker 2 (2:50) mayor? I think the thing that pushed me the most to run for this position was both a love of the city, but also a frustration with the fact that a lot of the leaders of the city talked about the problems. Like they, there was nothing they could do about it. Speaker 3 (3:07) It was like, somebody's got to figure this out. It's like, you're Speaker 2 (3:09) the mayor. Speaker 3 (3:11) Oh yeah, dude. That's where we are with a lot of- That somebody Speaker 2 (3:14) is you. Speaker 3 (3:15) Yeah. Speaker 2 (3:15) And I think it's not to say these are easy things to resolve. It's not to say you can snap your fingers and people just were refusing to do it. But it's that a lot of times it felt like people weren't even trying. And if they were, they were just trying to make things worse because there was money to be made when you make things worse. I mean, this flip side of being the most expensive city in the world is that a lot of people make a lot of money in the city. And amidst all of that wealth- one in four New Yorkers are living in poverty. So to me, it was looking at the politics of the city I love and seeing a complete like abdication of duty, just like a sense of somebody else's problem, not mine to fix. And the thing about being the mayor is, yeah, it's tough, but also you actually have tools that you can use to help people, to make people's lives better. Speaker 3 (4:01) Is that an honest fact, Mr. Mondani? Yes, sir. Speaker 3 (4:05) 26 % of New York, so you're ahead. You're ahead. It's going to be a tough start to the interview. 26 % of New York City residents, totally a record 2.2, 2.2 million people live below the poverty line. Once you got an office, was there things like, do you get to see what's really going on? Like once you're in there, can they keep like, I don't know, even know who they are anymore, but it's like. are there still secrets kept? Are you able to see that like, okay, the way that this is structured isn't for the everyday man, that this system here has been built like for the elites or to favor the elites? Like, what did Speaker 2 (4:45) you see? I think one of the major things I saw was how deeply mismanaged the city budget was. It's not a sexy topic or one that most people wake up thinking about, but so often in politics, the incentive. is just to tell the best possible story of the day and not tell the whole truth about what's actually happening. And so the prior administration had said, you know, we had a balanced budget. We had, I don't know, maybe a $6 billion deficit or so in the year to come. And then we came in, we looked through all the books and we found that at a best case scenario, we were at a $12 billion deficit. In the city? In this city. Wow. The last time we had deficits like that, there was a major global event. Something had happened to cause the deficit. It was, you know, it was tough when it was the peak of the pandemic. It was tough when it was the global financial crisis. There was no event around this that could explain this much of a deficit. So Speaker 3 (5:42) what do you think is going on? Is it just greed? Like, is it just- I Speaker 2 (5:45) think Speaker 3 (5:45) it's, Speaker 2 (5:45) I Speaker 3 (5:46) mean, look- Like, what did you notice? Like, what were some of the, like- I think Speaker 2 (5:49) a lot of it is incompetence and a lack of interest. in resolving it, a sense that you could just keep pushing it until it was somebody else's problem. And that to me is like, yeah, look, I want to do a good job while I'm the mayor. I also want to leave the city in a good standing for whoever comes next because it's still the same city. Whoever's the mayor, we still live in the city. We still love the city. And so when you come in and you're like, actually, the deficit is twice as large. There's nothing you can pin it to besides internal mismanagement. It also just begs the question of what is going on and what have been the decision-making points over the course of the prior administration that led to this point? So I think that was one of the big things where you look under the hood and it is way worse than what you would have imagined. And you also realize how so much of the government is built with a short term in mind. I'll give you an example. Speaker 3 (6:45) I Speaker 2 (6:45) come in. We start to see the most serious snowfall we've seen in New York City for a while. We haven't really had winters with a lot of snow recently. Speaker 3 (6:54) Oh, that's nice. I like snow. Speaker 2 (6:55) Yeah. You know, I used to like snow until I became the mayor. And I thought about snow as a structural problem. Speaker 3 (7:01) Well, we're probably overpaying for it from somebody. Speaker 2 (7:03) Well, I mean, the big thing is that we, I found out that the way we budget for snow removal services is as an average of the recent year's cost of snow removal. So if you haven't had snow. For the last few years, you're not going to have any money really set aside for that snow removal. Got Speaker 3 (7:19) it. Speaker 2 (7:20) And so I think having to reallocate that funding, deal with the first blizzard in 10 years, these are the kinds of things that are some of the ones that they shock you when you get in there. Speaker 3 (7:28) So it's fair to say then you just saw a lot of mismanagement. Speaker 2 (7:31) Mismanagement, there was waste. There's also this addiction to consulting, a sense that, you know, for years we've been told that if you contract something out of government, you will save money. by bringing in kind of specialized consultants. When we looked at the city budget, when we looked at different departments, we realized we had to save a lot of money through efficiency as well. We couldn't just look for help from elsewhere. So we set up something called chief savings officers in every department. And their remit was, how can you save this percentage in your department without cutting services? We do not want to cut services. Speaker 2 (8:11) We saved $94 million just by renegotiating contracts to a better rate. We saved $24 million just by letting go of unused office space. Speaker 1 (8:21) These Speaker 2 (8:21) are the kinds of things where you can actually save more than a billion dollars without affecting the services you're delivering to people. And that to me is like, look, I'm a socialist. I believe in the importance of government to deliver for working people. I also believe that that- Government has to be the most excellent, efficient version of itself to be worthy of people's trust. And when I came in, the government that we saw was powered by incredible city workers, but mismanaged at the top where waste was just an accepted part of doing business. Speaker 3 (8:54) And that Speaker 2 (8:55) can't be. Every time you waste, you tell somebody, don't believe in government. Speaker 3 (8:59) You Speaker 2 (9:00) give them a reason. Speaker 3 (9:01) Yeah, that's a good point, actually. Yeah, it's true. You're like, why would I even, yeah. Why would I waste Speaker 2 (9:06) money? Speaker 3 (9:06) I don't want to pay my taxes. Somebody's just going to misappropriate it. But did you notice a lot of fraud? Like, was it fraudulent, do you think it seemed? Or is it even worth figuring that out? Speaker 2 (9:17) I think if you find an evidence of fraud, it's always worth figuring it out, if that's actually the case. What I will say is from what we've seen, it's more to do with mismanagement. It's more to do with just kind of... fiscal impropriety, I would say, like moving money around to make it look like things are better than they are. There are some people in the past administration who have been investigated for fraud. That definitely did happen. It's Speaker 3 (9:42) not, I'm trying to think. I don't even know. Maybe it's Eric Adams. I don't know if it's him or not. Is it? He Speaker 2 (9:47) was the previous mayor. He was? He had a number of his- Oh yeah, he was bonkers, Speaker 3 (9:51) dude. Remember when he was looking for those guns in those Care Bears or whatever? Yeah, I do remember. Yeah, check your backpacks. Yeah, that's crazy. Speaker 2 (9:59) That's crazy. And they had drugs Speaker 3 (10:02) or whatever in that little, they had like one of those little baby, it was always like a little baby stroller. It was a fake one though for kids when they have a baby, like a pretend baby or whatever to practice for like mother, for being a mother one day or something. And then they found like a little bag of dope on the side of it. You know, I was like, what is this about? But anyway, that seemed fraudulent to me. Speaker 2 (10:22) He had a number of top aides who were investigated. Yeah. One of them memorably said, when speaking to a contractor, where are my crumbs? Oh Speaker 3 (10:32) yeah. Like, where's Speaker 2 (10:32) my money as part of this deal? Speaker 3 (10:34) Oh, that sounds like a, that's a bar though, to be honest. Speaker 2 (10:37) If you were going to be corrupt, those are the best words to use. Speaker 3 (10:40) Yeah. At least, at least they were like kind of poetic at being corrupt. You got to say that. So that's kind of cool. Speaker 2 (10:45) But I, but I think that to me is an example of why people have lost faith and people, people look at it and they're like, I'm already giving you my money. Why should I give you my time? Why should I give you my care? Speaker 3 (10:56) And Speaker 2 (10:56) I don't ever want to lecture somebody that they're wrong to feel that way. I want to prove to them that it can be different. And then from there, hope they can believe. Speaker 3 (11:06) I know that, and thanks for talking with me today, man. Please. I know one thing that you champion is rent control, right? And that you worked in the housing as a housing counselor. What's the Speaker 2 (11:17) term? So I worked as a foreclosure prevention housing counselor. And I'll say that in English. That is me working for homeowners who are on the brink of foreclosure. they would come in and I would negotiate with their bank on their behalf. And Speaker 3 (11:33) was that private or was that was a public service? Speaker 2 (11:35) That was working for a nonprofit. Speaker 3 (11:37) Okay, got it. Speaker 2 (11:37) So I would work for a nonprofit in Jackson Heights and Richmond Hill in Queens. Speaker 3 (11:41) And Speaker 2 (11:42) these would be middle-class homeowners. They were, you know, what I would find is these are people who we would describe as having a successful middle-class life. Speaker 3 (11:50) Yeah. They Speaker 2 (11:50) had a union job. They had a home that they owned. And it was just one emergency often that would throw them out of. being on time with their payments. Oh Speaker 3 (11:58) yeah. Speaker 2 (11:59) And it would be a medical visit they hadn't planned for, an illness of a family member, you know, they had a car, you know, some kind of a car accident. And- Speaker 3 (12:09) Yeah, I've been there. I mean, I've been on the edge of where it's like you have to call and you're trying to figure out refinancing and that takes so much of your time. And then you have to go to a public service to get some help. It's Speaker 2 (12:17) a Speaker 3 (12:17) nightmare. Speaker 2 (12:18) It is. And I think- What was, it was one of the more fulfilling things I've ever done in my life because I could help someone stay in their home. The more depressing part of it is no matter how many clients I helped, there would always be another client. Speaker 3 (12:33) And Speaker 2 (12:34) it doesn't take away from the people that you helped, but it makes you realize that this is a systemic issue. There is no amount of individual assistance I can provide that will stop this. And that's then what made me. think about running for office was understanding that actually, if you want to resolve this, you have to get into the systems and the structures that create these kinds of conditions. Speaker 3 (12:59) Because there Speaker 2 (13:00) are so many people who you'd think are living a successful middle-class life. And they're, like you said, they're on the brink. Speaker 3 (13:06) And Speaker 2 (13:07) they shouldn't need some intervention from one person to be able to survive. That shouldn't be based on whether or not that person does their job. And in that case, that person was me. Speaker 3 (13:18) Where does like, you know, rent increase, like the cost of living has gone up. We live in a, in a time it's really, really tough, right? You talked about a middle-class worker who's just trying to keep his home. Do you think that the American dream is even, is still alive even, but bring up what is the American dream? People have shit, damn forgot what it is. That's. The American dream is the belief that anyone in the United States, regardless of where they started, should have a fair chance to build a better, freer, and more fulfilling life through ability, effort, and opportunity. It's an ideal, not a guarantee. Speaker 2 (13:51) Look at that second sentence. I think in many ways that is the issue. Speaker 3 (13:57) A fair chance. Speaker 2 (13:58) No, it is an ideal. not a guarantee. Speaker 3 (14:01) Right. It's not. Okay. So I see what you're saying. So it's not something that's guaranteed to you, but it should be something that we can feel. And I think it's something that it's like, it's kind of like this tone that resonates inside of everybody here that I have a chance. If I show up for myself, if I do my best, you may need a little bit of luck or a little bit of good fortune along the way. I feel like that's always felt like it's been the case, but I feel like that, that, that, that's starting to dissolve. It's slipping away. And it doesn't feel real anymore. It Speaker 2 (14:29) feels like a thing you can believe in, not a thing you can live. Speaker 3 (14:33) And Speaker 2 (14:33) it needs to be, it needs to be a guarantee. Yeah. If something is just an ideal, it starts to lose its worth. I mean, think about democracy. A lot of people talk about democracy now as an ideal or as a value. And to somebody who can't afford their groceries, they're like, what do I care about a value? What do I care about an ideal? Like I'll give you an example to me the greatest mayor in New York City history mayor Fiora LaGuardia and When he was the mayor this about a hundred years ago He was looking at the fall of democracies in Europe and he was saying people are not turning away from democracy because they're tired of Liberty They're turning away because they're tired of being hungry They're they're tired of not being able to feed their family. So if democracy doesn't mean the better life that it has to it'll lose its worth. And the same thing with the American dream. If it's something you can only see when you turn on your TV or you hear about that one guy you grew up with who made it, that doesn't mean enough. Speaker 3 (15:29) And Speaker 2 (15:29) so to me, it's like in this city. The reason I'm focused on housing and childcare and groceries, it's like, these are the basic aspects of a good dignified life and people can't afford them. I mean. Yeah. Oh Speaker 3 (15:43) yeah. Well, I've seen some of the stuff that you've done. You know, I know that you were offering like a night out for parents, you know, the opportunity to go have a night out for themselves and to offer childcare to help with that. Tickets for the opera, which is just a chance for somebody to have a new experience. It's pretty cool, right? Like a lot of quality of life sort of things. I think there's, oh, I know you're, working with the stabilization of rent control, right? And a two-year moratorium on an increase. Speaker 2 (16:09) Yeah, that's what the Independent Rent Guidelines Board, they came out, they said for the next year and the year after that, no rent increase for more than 2 million New Yorkers. Speaker 3 (16:16) Right, and it sounds like to me, it sounds like you're just trying to give people a chance to take a breath, right? That's what it sounds like. I mean, all those things kind of like, you know, I can have a night out, right? I can listen to a music. that gives me a bit of peace, right? I can know for a couple years that the job that I have is going to equate with the costs that are going to be going out, right? Speaker 2 (16:37) That is such a beautiful way of describing it, is to take a breath. Because when we talk to parents and we ask them, you know, what are the two most important things that could make a difference in your life? It's time and money. Speaker 3 (16:50) And Speaker 2 (16:50) you give them the time of a night out. you take care of the cost of child care. Oh, yeah. Speaker 3 (16:56) And it keeps the love going. If you got to take your lady out. Speaker 2 (16:59) You know, go out for a dinner. Yeah, go Speaker 3 (17:01) out for a fish dinner. If you got a little couple extra bucks, if it's Friday. Shout out fish Speaker 2 (17:06) dinner. Speaker 3 (17:07) Yeah, if somebody loves you, I think they buy you fish. What kind of fish Speaker 2 (17:10) is your favorite? Speaker 3 (17:11) You know, there's one I don't like, but it smells really bad, but I can never remember which one it is. Okay, I'm Speaker 2 (17:16) going to hit you with a couple. All right. Is it Branzino? I feel like it. Branzino is the one that was in the mob Speaker 3 (17:21) or something. I don't eat that much. Was it? Huh? Yeah, Branzino. Was that in the mob? He probably was. What are you even talking about? You're going to tell me Branzino wasn't freaking involved in some fishy business or whatever? All I'm Speaker 2 (17:33) saying is if you want some good fish, 31st Street and Broadway, Astoria, Bihari Estatorio. Great Speaker 3 (17:40) Greek Speaker 2 (17:41) seafood. Speaker 3 (17:42) Bihari? Bihari. Bihari? Yeah. Estatorio? Speaker 2 (17:45) Estatorio. Okay. Branzino. Okay. Don't ask. He's not a guy there. Speaker 3 (17:49) Okay. Okay. Is the fish. Okay. Got it. I got it. Okay. Yeah. I think, but there's, they missed, they, there's a lot of misguidance with the fish because they'll come in with like every year, like a new fish comes out like barramundi. Where was that? My whole life didn't exist. Bam. Suddenly. Who Speaker 2 (18:02) is Speaker 3 (18:02) that? That's what I'm saying. It's on the menus. But yeah, he's not running against you. You know what I'm saying? But barramundi sounds like Speaker 2 (18:07) - Speaker 3 (18:07) Who is he? Yeah, barramundi sounds like- I thought we dealt Speaker 2 (18:09) with Speaker 3 (18:09) him. But still, then they come in with tilapia. Like they come in with- Tilapia is a classic. But has it always been there? Like it came out probably 16 years ago. People started talking about tilapia. Then they come in with whitefish. And then a lot of American catfish got replaced with this thing. I think Speaker 2 (18:25) it Speaker 3 (18:25) was called wee fish. Can you look it up?