Ex-Counterfeiter Arthur Williams Jr.

This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von

In this episode of 'This Past Weekend,' comedian Theo Von sits down with Arthur Williams Jr., a former counterfeiter who mastered the art of

Key takeaways

• Williams began stealing from parking meters as a child out of necessity to feed his family during times of poverty and parental instability.
• His early criminal behavior was driven by desperation rather than greed, rooted in a need to survive and support his family.

Main topics

• The origins of counterfeiting in childhood poverty
• Psychology of crime and survival-driven decisions

Notable quotes

"I believe there's divineness in what I do. Like whatever my mind is able to do, there's a creator... that gives me a force field."

Conclusion

Arthur Williams Jr.'s journey from a desperate child stealing from parking meters to a prolific

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) He was one of the most prolific counterfeiters in America, printing over $10 million in fake currency. He spent 12 years in prison for his crimes, but now he's out and he's telling his story. And what a story it is, man. We're going to hear about it all, and we're going to hear about where he's at today. We really got into it. Today's guest is Mr. Art Williams. Speaker 2 (0:44) Yeah, dude, my friends were texting me the full moon about the full moon yesterday. Speaker 4 (0:48) Yeah, it's a partial lunar today. Speaker 2 (0:50) Yeah, well, they're like, go look at the moon, you know? Yeah. Speaker 4 (0:52) And Speaker 2 (0:53) I feel like it's, I wonder if like the moon feels embarrassed because like everybody's looking at it at the same time. That's what I start to think, you know? Like if everybody was looking at me at the same time, like I would just feel so embarrassed, I feel like. Yeah, well, sometimes it feels like that. Speaker 4 (1:04) Yeah. But I look at the moon like a mirror. Speaker 2 (1:06) Yeah? Speaker 4 (1:07) Yeah, a reflection, right? Even last night in the room that you got me. Hey, that room is dope. I got the dopest city view. Oh, nice, dude. I Speaker 5 (1:13) woke Speaker 4 (1:13) up at like 2 in the morning, and the moon was just looking at me. Speaker 5 (1:16) Dang. Wow. Oh, that's a peeping Tom, man. Yeah, it was peeping on me. Yeah. The moon was a peeping Tom last night. Because the curtains were open, right? And it was just sitting right there looking down. Speaker 2 (1:25) I'm like, Speaker 5 (1:25) whoa. Speaker 2 (1:26) I don't blame it, man. Art Williams, dude. Yeah. We met in Chicago at the Gibson's restaurant. Yeah, we Speaker 4 (1:34) met at the Viagra Triangle. Speaker 2 (1:36) Yeah, dude. But there we are. Yeah, Speaker 4 (1:40) there we are. But dude, Speaker 2 (1:41) yeah. Thanks so much for coming in. So just for our listeners who don't know, so in a past life, you were a counterfeiter. Speaker 5 (1:47) Yeah, printing money. Printing money. Not for the feds either. No. Nah, yeah. For yourself. For myself. Yeah, that's what I like, bro. Hey, we need more of that. For sure now, right? Oh, dude. I think especially, look, if the government's just going to print it for themselves. Yeah, well, now they're going digital. They're Speaker 4 (2:02) going to print it through the digital coin, which is going to be a... were even more trippy. Right. And I think, yeah. Speaker 5 (2:07) And Speaker 2 (2:07) we're Speaker 5 (2:07) going Speaker 2 (2:07) to get into some of that, dude. I want to talk about some of those things. But yeah, no, Speaker 4 (2:10) I printed money, man. When the $1,996 bill came out, they said that it was impossible to replicate. And I was about, I don't know, I was probably like 24, 25. And so I said, man, I'm going to replicate it. I think I could. And my story goes back a little further because I grew up in the south side of Chicago. Yeah, Speaker 2 (2:30) take me there. Like looking back, are you able to see any things that made you think, okay, I'm going to head in this direction kind of? Oh, yeah. Like was you doing early crime or whatever? I was doing Speaker 5 (2:37) a lot of crimes. Yeah, Speaker 4 (2:38) early. So when my dad— Early bird gets the wallet. And that's true, though. Well, we get the coins because I'd hit the meters. Oh, you would? Yeah, the meters on the side of Hostess Street. So that was like my first crime. When my dad left us, my mom was, she dealt with mental illness. She was diagnosed bipolar. So she had to take lithium, and she didn't take it. Well, once a year, she would go into the hospital, right? And they'd have to get the levels back up, and they'd put us Speaker 5 (3:04) in Speaker 4 (3:05) foster home, right? So my youth, so when my dad took off, and we ended up homeless, and then ended up in the projects on the south side, right by White Sox Park. Speaker 4 (3:16) You know, it was, I remember, because, you know, you're on welfare. My mom was on welfare. She wasn't working. For us, it was, I came home from school. It was cold. I come into the house, and my mom's in the kitchen smoking. Would she smoke them Dorals or whatever? She used to roll her own. Yeah, my mom used to buy big bags of tobacco and she'd be there all day. Midwestern, she's a hard worker. Oh, yeah. No, my mom just rolled. But she was there smoking and she was crying. And I asked why she was crying. She said, we have no food in the house. So I opened up the fridge and it was empty, right? I was about 12 at that time. We had probably been living there almost maybe like nine months to a year. So I've already got a taste of the streets, you know. And so I grabbed my little brother, we ran outside. And while I'm walking down Halston Street, and I was right on 31st and Halston. That's where the projects that I grew up in. So it's like South Side. They call it the low end. Anything like under 55th is like the low end. These are just all Chicago street terms, I'm telling you right now. Speaker 5 (4:16) Yeah. And maybe I'll take Speaker 4 (4:18) you over there one day. Yeah. No, it's cool. So anyway, so I'm hitting the meters, walking down Halston, and I'm hitting the meters as I'm an angry kid. I'm not thinking about, you know, like, I don't know what to do. But as I'm hitting them, I could hear the chains ringing. And so Speaker 5 (4:34) I figured there was money in there. So you're just walking down the street, hitting them with a stick or something? No, with my fist. Speaker 4 (4:39) You know how you just snap, you know, hitting it every, because there's a meter like every 20 feet. Right, for sure. So I'm just cracking it, you know, just like as a little kid, man, you know? Yeah. But then I started hearing the jingling, jingle, jingle, jingle, jingle, you know, like it's money, right? Bing, like the little thing goes off. And so I start playing with it. So this is what God gave me. The gift he gave me is to figure things out. Speaker 5 (5:01) Puzzles, money, meters, you know. Right. Whatever's going on, you're going to figure it out. Speaker 4 (5:07) Art. Whatever it is, my brain just like wants to dissect it, right? But early on, it was just the meters. I wanted to get into the meter, right? So I went in the alley. I made this little metal piece that allowed me to twist the little pins. There were two little pins on it. And if you could get them to go straight up. You could pop it out. And there was always maybe like $10, $15 of quarters in it. So you'd hit like $5 or $6 and all of a sudden you got $100. And $100 Speaker 5 (5:32) back then was something. Yeah, it's a lot of money. I still love Speaker 4 (5:34) $100. Like, $100's my number, man. You know what I'm saying? $100, yeah. But so we hit it for like, me and my bro hit for like $87. We went to Tony's Supermarket. And me and my bro were just putting stuff in. We're all excited, right? Oh, yeah. And we get up there and the big tiny looks down. He's like, you guys got money? We're kids, man. And we had a bag. It was in a bag, like a little jewels bag or something. We just said, we got money? And he looked at the change. He goes, yeah, that's money, right? And so he started counting. It was like 86 bucks. We get home. This is what was awesome. When we walked in the door, my mom was still kind of in her depressed mode. She hadn't really moved yet. But when she seen the groceries, she lit up, ran, and hugged us. She's like, where'd you get these? She probably thought some church gave it to us or something, you know? Yeah. And I'm like, um. I'm like, we got him out. You know, she goes, well, how'd you get the money? I said, out of the meters. She's like, well, how'd you get it out of the meters? I said, we broke into him. She was in that and she was, go up to your room right now. Her demeanor went from happy to pissed like that, you know, like in heart, like real quick. So me and my brother go upstairs. She comes up after that. And she's like, she's like, look, I don't want you stealing for money. God will provide the way. I said, God did provide the way. He showed me how to open it, right? Because I believe there's divineness in what I do. Like whatever my mind is able to do, there's a creator, there's something outside of me that I could tap into that gives me a force, I call it, force field, right? Well, at that time, did you feel like you were Speaker 2 (7:02) doing it for a good cause Speaker 4 (7:03) too? For my mom, for my brother, for my sister. What are you Speaker 5 (7:05) going Speaker 4 (7:05) to do? Yeah, man, they got to eat, you know? And that started it, right? Then once that happened, it didn't stop. I'd hit the meters whenever I needed it. Then I started hanging out with the gang. So like in Chicago, the gang violence was real strong at that point. It was like mid 80s, early 90s, guns are hitting the street. It went from, at first it was like dance crews, like break dancing. And so the break dancers turned into the gangs pretty much. So you had the break dancing moments in Chicago and probably New York and LA, probably everywhere. And then when the breakdancing kind of faded out, all those cats turned into Latin kings or disciples. I mean, GDs have always been there, right? Which GDs? Gangs of Disciples. Okay. Yeah, they've always been before. And all these gangs have been there forever, but the breakdancing, when it broke out, that's when a lot of numbers filled it. What Speaker 5 (7:57) do you think caused that breakdancing to kind of dissipate over there? I think because they started fighting. Speaker 4 (8:02) Right? So at first it was just like, ah, right? You know, grab my nuts and put it in your face, right? And then they started beefing. And then when they started beefing, you know, physical just always enhances, even like wars. Speaker 5 (8:15) Yeah, there's an escalation. Speaker 4 (8:16) There's always Speaker 5 (8:16) escalation Speaker 4 (8:17) with Speaker 5 (8:17) your Speaker 4 (8:17) man, right? So if it's a, you know, you step on my toe, then I smack you in the face and you punch me in the mind and then boom, boom, boom, boom, right? Yeah, that's always a way to do it. Yeah, so anyway, but that's what I think happened. I think once Speaker 5 (8:28) that, Speaker 4 (8:28) you know, there's just the beefs and then the guns. That was the thing that really, for me, that sticks in my memory harsher than anything because I've been shot. And I've had friends killed. One right there, you know, got shot in the head. With you? Yeah, we were all out there and we heard one shot and poof, hit him in the head and he dropped, Speaker 5 (8:47) right? I got hit in the side. And were you out there like with the gang? Yeah. Because you were just out in the streets? Speaker 4 (8:52) Yeah, everyone had their corner. Got it. We had 32nd and Lithuanica. The Italians, they had Armour Park, 33rd and Shields. Latin Kings had 33rd and Morgan. The Spanish Chancellors had 29th and Wallace, Speaker 5 (9:05) right? And who was your favorite gang looking back? I mean, the one I was with, Speaker 4 (9:08) right? Speaker 5 (9:08) Type shit. I was a Speaker 4 (9:09) disciple, Speaker 5 (9:10) man. Of course, man. That's a good answer, bro. Speaker 4 (9:12) I ran the streets real hard from breaking into cars to garages to stealing cars. It escalated. So you were into crime then. That was your thing. Well, it was to survive, right? Like, I didn't ever look at, like, crime in the sense, and even when I got older, in the sense of, like, I imagined that it would make me, like, a rich drug lord, right? Like, I never had that in my mind that stealing a car is going to, you know, cause me to have something great. Like, one day I'm going to have a dealership. Yeah, I'm not going to have a dealership. Exactly, right? So I always fought against wanting to do it, right? And then when the money came, though, so I ended up. getting in trouble, stealing a car. One of my mom's friends came up to get me because they could sign you out at the police station. And on the way back, he was just telling me, like, you know, what are you doing, man? You're smart in this. You know, I see how you are and you love your mama and, you know, what's going on? And he brought me into his world. Who was saying this? An older gentleman. I nicknamed him Pete. Called Pete DaVinci because, you know, he's telling me crazy stories about DaVinci, wear a little hat, tying guy. Okay, got it. So we're walking back, me and Peter walking back, and he's just, you know, telling me. He goes, hey, listen, I'm going to take it. I'm going to show you how to make some money and be quiet about it. Right? That was the thing. That was the difference about what I was doing. It was loud. The gangs was loud. The guns, the stealing, the breaking windows, right, to get into cars, right? He wanted to show me how to be quiet and make money. And so for me, with my dad leaving, He was kind of like the first one, the first guy that I felt like a father, like a little bit of a fatherhood to. Oh, yeah, Speaker 2 (10:48) dude. When you're young, if somebody comes into your life and pays you some attention, or hey, this is another thing, hey, let me show you how to do something, that's a huge thing. I just didn't think it was Speaker 5 (10:57) going to be print money. Like I didn't know. Oh, dude. I mean, I hate to say, look. Speaker 4 (11:01) I hate to say you got Speaker 2 (11:03) lucky. Because some guys are like, let me teach you how to play tennis, you know? Let me teach you how to touch yourself or whatever. Speaker 4 (11:09) But you got lucky, bro. I Speaker 2 (11:11) did. Speaker 4 (11:12) I really did. And my whole life has been kind of like that, too. I get in places that people just don't get into. 100%. I really do, man. It's like Da Vinci hanging with the kings. I don't know how it happens, man. Speaker 5 (11:24) It's just like, whoop. Speaker 4 (11:25) Okay, here I am, Speaker 5 (11:26) like, portaled in, you know? Right, and like, here we are into the next chapter of this fairy tale. I love Speaker 4 (11:30) it. I love it. That's what makes life live, though, right? Speaker 5 (11:33) Oh, I agree. Yeah. I think it's so interesting that he's teaching you how to do something quiet. Quiet. That's what it was all about, right? Speaker 4 (11:40) And as a counterfeiter, you learn to become a ghost. I mean, even now, I'm still a ghost, you know? I still live like that just because it's how I was trained, you know? But yeah, so he takes me to his shop. He had a shop over by Armor Park. And I had one of them old elevators that went down into the basement stuff. And he had his printer over here. He had his light burner over here. He had his plate maker over here where he did his ink, where he held his paper. I mean, it was just, it was fascinating as a kid. I'm like 15, 16, man, you know, like Karen and I am. We're an old gangster, you know. And as a kid in that neighborhood. because my neighborhood was where Mayor Daley was from, right? Bridgeport, they call it. Where Speaker 5 (12:18) Mayor Daley was from? Yeah, Mayor Daley. The old Speaker 4 (12:19) Daley, Richard Daley and all the Daley's. That's that neighborhood, you know? Got it. And so you have the Irish on 37th. You have the Italians on 31st. You got the Chinatown over on 22nd. You got Pilsen, which is over off 18th. And then where I lived was like the hush-push of everyone but poor. Right? We were all just poor, right? But there was a little Puerto Rican, a little Thai, a little mutt, you know, like everything, right? So for a kid in the projects to make it to the Italian side was huge. That was Speaker 5 (12:48) like a Speaker 4 (12:48) hand up, man. Yeah. You know? Like, that's what everybody wanted, you know? You didn't want to be a car thief. Right. You know, you wanted to be with them because you know what they did. Yeah, they at least were organized. They were organized, man. And so for me to be in the projects and be pulled out of it. That was like winning a lottery, man. It was like winning a lottery. So he took me in. He started showing me. I would help carry the paper. He was old, so he needed someone anyway because the paper's heavy. Ink cans, you know, have to move the equipment around. You got to keep everything clean, right? And that ink is shit, man. I've had it on my hand and then went and took a piss. And, man, I'm burning my piece, you know? Really? Oh, that was crazy. It was, like, green for, like, a week. And it wasn't gonorrhea. But it's head. It was Speaker 5 (13:29) ink! Yeah. It was not, man. But it's Speaker 4 (13:31) getting darker. You know what I'm saying? Win some, lose some, cuz. I did, man. You know, yeah. What Speaker 2 (13:37) was some of the machinery that Pete was using to counterfeit? Speaker 4 (13:41) So at that time, it was still the little. Little-Faced 100, right? There was a time when the 100 had a tiny face on it, right? Okay. We're going way back, 1985. So those were the ones he made. And they were a lot easier because there was no watermark. There was no shifting ink. There was just a visual. Okay. And so he was making notes, and he was using the old offset technology. So he had AB Dick two-color, right? Speaker 5 (14:07) What is that? AB Dick two-color? It's a paint? Speaker 4 (14:09) No, it's a press. It's a printing press. Speaker 5 (14:11) Okay. Yeah, I got to send you a picture. They're awesome, man. We'll bring one up right here. It's called A.B. Dick. Yeah, Speaker 2 (14:17) look Speaker 5 (14:17) at Speaker 4 (14:17) like a two-color A.B. Dick. Yeah, there you go, right? And so that's what he used. Speaker 5 (14:23) Wow. Speaker 2 (14:24) And that looks Speaker 5 (14:24) kind of Speaker 2 (14:25) advanced for the times, huh? Speaker 4 (14:26) Well, I Speaker 5 (14:27) mean, it was an offset press. Ben Franklin invented the Speaker 4 (14:29) press. Like look at Ben Franklin's press, his first one. Yeah, Ben Franklin's first press. He's the one who invented it. Ben Franklin invented all kinds of things. So there was different machines. You asked about the machines. So you had a machine to take a photo, right? You would put the bill up there. You take a photo of it, right? And then take it down. Then there was another machine. It made the negatives, right? So you would go and you'd make the negatives with the bill. And we would always do three bills, right? Because these offsets. Speaker 4 (14:59) They were best with like eight and a half by 11 paper. And you Speaker 2 (15:02) would take the photos of the bill? Speaker 4 (15:04) Of the bill. Of a real bill? Of a real bill. Okay, got it. Yeah. And then we would take it and we put it into a negative form and, you know, put through the machine that makes the negative. And then that's when you do your serial numbers. We take this red tape and we knock out the serial numbers. Because that was one of the hardest things to change, right? Because the numbers is what get people caught back in the old days, right? So you'd mark out the numbers and then you'd make the plate, you'd put the negative in the machine, it'd burn the plate, then you'd put the plate onto the press and then you'd make the ink and then you'd run your paper. It's fascinating. I love it. I really do. I love it. Well, it's a piece of art. Yeah, and I still got a press, you know, and I sit there and I lay next to it and reminisce. Speaker 5 (15:42) Oh, yeah. Speaker 4 (15:43) But nevertheless, yeah, Speaker 5 (15:44) I'll show it to you one day. So, yeah, so that's that process. But with me, what happened... And just to interrupt you real quick, how long did that process take? Well, for him, he could do it quick. So I had to Speaker 4 (15:54) learn because he never let me do some of the things. Like he never let me like take the photos. He didn't let me, you know, burn the plates. I would be there. I would move stuff for him or be cleaning. But there was a lot of things I didn't get to do. But because I got to see what he used, I replicated that part first. So when the bill came out. I went back and started thinking about all the things that he was doing. Speaker 2 (16:17) You mean when the 1996 $100 bill came out? When Speaker 4 (16:20) that came out. Speaker 2 (16:21) Because that bill came out and they said that it was unable to be duplicated. Is that right? Speaker 4 (16:25) Yeah, they said all the security features. There was a watermark, a strip, fluorescents on it. There were shifting ink. There was micro printing. You got the mornay. So there's a moray, which if you try to scan it in a present scanner, the lines around his head will get real wavy. Right? There's all kinds of neat things in there. Speaker 2 (16:45) Oh, really? So if you try to scan that in just a scanner, like scan it over to just even send a picture to somebody, the lines get wavy in his head? Speaker 4 (16:52) The Speaker 2 (16:52) lines Speaker 4 (16:52) get wavy in his head. It's called a moiré, right? Speaker 2 (16:55) Interesting. Speaker 4 (16:56) Yeah, no, there's a lot of cool things on it. It says Speaker 2 (16:58) here six features. Yeah, watermark, a second faint image of Benjamin Franklin to the right of the portrait, visible when held to light. Embedded security thread, a vertical strip embedded in the paper, visible when held to light. It reads USA 100. I remember when that came out, bro. UV reactive thread under ultraviolet light. The security thread glows red. So Speaker 4 (17:20) that's when you take the money to the strip club and you throw it at the girl and it... The line will glow yellow, red, or green. Got it. Whatever denomination it is. You want it to glow. I would want it to glow Speaker 5 (17:29) red, right? Red was the 100 color. It was? Oh, I would want it to glow. What was green? Ones? No, Speaker 4 (17:35) I think that's 20s, I think. Speaker 2 (17:37) Okay, I'll do 20s. You can do 20s? Help the Speaker 5 (17:39) ladies Speaker 2 (17:39) out. Yeah. Ultraviolet light. The security thread glows red. Color shifting ink. The 100 in the lower right front corner shifts from green to black as you tilt it. Speaker 4 (17:49) And Speaker 2 (17:50) now it's purple to Speaker 4 (17:51) gold. Speaker 2 (17:52) Got it. The no one. Microprinting. Microprinting. Tiny USA 100 printing included on Franklin's lapel and in the lower left numeral area. And then fine line, concentric line printing. Intricate lines around the portrait and on the reverse that ordinary copiers struggle to reproduce accurately. The ordinary copiers, it makes it like wavy. Got it. But listen to this one. Read that next line. The 1996 note does not have the blue 3D security ribbon or the color-changing bell in the inkwell. Those arrived on the redesigned $100 note introduced later. In 2015. You know why that bill was made? Speaker 3 (18:26) Because of me. I'm sitting next to him. Speaker 4 (18:28) It's called visual physics, right? You know what's so funny? They let the bill out right when I got out of prison. Oh, I thought they were trying to rub it in my face a little bit. Speaker 2 (18:37) Did Speaker 4 (18:37) you do it on purpose? Oh, yeah, they had to. Because it was supposed to come out in 13. Or no, it was supposed to come out like 11 or 10. Somewhere around there. I got out in 13, 2013. But I'm watching in the paper there. I'm reading in the paper. And, man, you know, this new bill coming out, right? And then when I got out and I seen that purple line, I just went nuts. I'm like, well, so what happened is they wrote a book about me called The Art of Making Money. Like, what? Way back, it was like 2005. And then they put me in Rolling Stone magazine, called me the best counterfeiter ever. Really? Yeah, it was awesome, right? I mean, I went to prison for seven years, so it wasn't too awesome. But it was still cool that it got recorded, you know? But then everyone wanted to be like me. So you start having guys in California reading the book. Now, granted, I only, there was 12 steps to the whole thing. I only gave them like five, right? And so I didn't, for one, I would never give my recipe to anybody. To how to counterfeit. Yeah. But when I was doing the book, I was like, you know, if I give these five, even if they tried to do it, it wouldn't come out like mine. Right. Because I don't want a bunch of people making money like me and then I'm getting in trouble. Right. So I just left a lot of parts out. But a lot of people tried and started creating their own money. Speaker 5 (19:45) Did anybody ever reach out to you and say, hey, do you want to get back in the game? Oh, they do now on my Facebook and Instagram, man. You know, like, I get a little weirded out, you know, because that happens Speaker 4 (19:55) all the time. Speaker 5 (19:55) All the time. Have you ever just even met up Speaker 2 (19:57) with somebody just to Speaker 5 (19:58) see what it was like? Like, Speaker 2 (19:58) what's this person even Speaker 4 (19:59) talking Speaker 5 (19:59) about? No, no, Speaker 4 (20:00) no. If somebody comes at me like that now, like, I'm an artist. I got a great life, man. You know what I'm saying? Like, and even back then, man, I probably trunk them, right? Just for coming to me without knowing me. Right. Yeah. So, like, anyway, my neighborhood, we trunk. They would. Speaker 5 (20:14) trunk Speaker 4 (20:15) people not me Speaker 5 (20:15) did put him in a trunk yeah put Speaker 4 (20:16) him in a trunk Speaker 2 (20:17) um but anyway okay so take me back to all right you're working with pete yeah are you able to learn pete's method or or what happens there Speaker 4 (20:24) so so when the time i was with him like i said mostly i was just moving things for him learn how to mix inks he didn't he didn't ever let me do any of the real heavy stuff like the brain work right okay got it so i got to watch his what he did you know that's how i learned what he You know, I'd watch him do the plates. I'd watch him do the photography. I'd watch him, you know, mix his inks, right? How he'd weigh it, right? He'd put the ink on the little scale like drugs, right? Oh, so you Speaker 2 (20:48) had to have a certain amount of ink on the bill. Oh, Speaker 5 (20:50) yeah, Speaker 4 (20:50) yeah. He had to, yeah, everything. Even the bill had to weigh a gram, right? Because drug dealers like to weigh money. But nevertheless, so, but then Pete. God, I want a gram. Yeah, yeah. So anyway, for like, you know, we did, I stayed around for about nine months to a year and then he ended up disappearing. He was gone. Never came into the diner no more. Wasn't at the shop, you know and in my neighborhood that happened to people. Do you know what happened to him? No, no, I don't I don't I Speaker 5 (21:14) just he just never came back You Speaker 4 (21:16) know, if you had a Speaker 5 (21:17) guess what happened and what do you think happened? I hope Speaker 4 (21:19) he got away like that's what I think Oh, Speaker 5 (21:21) you think somebody might have been on him a bit Oh, well, that's in that world back then, especially, man. Like people in my neighborhood disappeared. That really happened. Speaker 4 (21:29) But did you Speaker 5 (21:29) see Speaker 2 (21:30) Pete being paranoid about stuff? Like did he also have some like things that he had done? Like were there things he set up at his place or his house to like? So Speaker 4 (21:36) the one thing about counterfeiters that he did, so not only did I get to see what he did, but we talked a lot, right? I mean, that was the coolest thing I think about the whole experience is just getting to hear his thoughts on different things, which expanded mine. Right. Which made me grow. Right. You know, so it was more than just learning how to print money, but it was actually learning how to use my mind. Because up until that point, I had it, you know. And and so when when he when he did disappear, like it was hard on me, man. You know, I'd go over there. I'd be looking in the window, seeing if he's around, you know. And you never heard from him again. No, no. And so the thing about a counterfeiter is the biggest thing is they teach you how to be quiet. They teach you how to disappear. They teach you how to not exist. They teach you how to, you know, that's the thing that was so awesome when I later down the road became a master at it is I could go anywhere. I could go to Florida. I could go to New York. I could go to LA. I could go to any country and quietly go somewhere and not know anybody and talk to anybody and produce money. Speaker 5 (22:40) It Speaker 4 (22:40) was the most liberating feeling you can have to have that ability. to walk in with blank paper and then turn it into suitcase cash. But you learned how to do it quietly. And so for him, when he disappeared, in my mind, I'm thinking, you know, he had to go, right? The heat's on him, right? And boom, he's gone, right? I didn't want to think he was dead, even though, like, that's a possibility too because, you know, here's the thing. Like, whenever you're dealing with large amounts of money, It's not like the movies, man. You get over 50,000, you get over 100,000, your life's in danger. Yeah. Okay? It don't need to be 500,000. It don't need to be a million. I've seen people get killed for 5,000. So in that world, you're literally printing. So you asked if people have tried to get me to do money while I'm free. No, because I don't even entertain it. Right. Right? But on the streets, yeah, there were times where there were different crews that would hear about me. And then they literally look at you like a printing press. Right. This guy's ATM. Yeah. Yeah. This is an ATM, man. So that was the thing that I had to watch for back on the day. That's scary. And that's why you have to be a ghost. That's why you have to be a ghost because you can't be predictable. You can't. I never, even now, nobody knows where I live, man. Like I don't let, wherever I lay my head, man, it's top secret. Top secret. Even my gallery, you know, by appointment only. Doors ain't open. Speaker 5 (24:07) Can't come in there. The best business Speaker 2 (24:10) ideas come from people who are passionate about what they're creating. People who had an idea and a drive to make something happen. You know, we're always waiting for the right time to do something. Like start a business. The truth is, the best time is now. And Shopify can help. Shopify is hands down the best place to start and grow a business. It's the platform where you really own everything. Your store, your community. We use Shopify for our merch store. They've been great as we've added new products over the years and times where we've scaled up and scaled down. They've been right there. Everything's possible. They take care of the logistics so we can stay focused on the creative stuff. There is no better feeling than having something that is truly yours. Find out what it feels like to say, that's my business at shopify.com slash Theo. That's shopify.com slash Theo. When the bathroom has two handicap stalls so you don't feel bad taking one of them. Or when you wear last year's summer shorts for the first time this season and find a $5 bill in the pocket. Those are power moves. Just like how hiring Morgan & Morgan is a power move. Morgan & Morgan is America's largest injury law firm. They have over 100 offices nationwide and more than 1,000 lawyers. If you're ever injured by the negligence of another, you deserve to be paid. I remember a fellow who made his own roller skates, and that didn't end well. And I knew a guy who was eating fish out of a water treatment facility, and that didn't end well. If you're ever injured, you can check out Morgan & Morgan. For more information, go to forthepeople.com slash Theo or dial pound law, pound 529. That's f-o-r-thepeople.com slash Theo or dial pound law, pound 529. This is a paid advertisement. So just to do a timeline recap, so... You grow up in this neighborhood in Chicago. It's a hectic environment. You get into stuff on the streets. You guys are out there kind of banging, stealing this, stealing that. Kind of petty crime stuff, maybe a little bit aggressive. You meet Pete. You kind of go under his wing as this sort of like, not exactly an apprentice, but you're there with him all the time. His helper. Yeah, Speaker 5 (27:00) his helper. Speaker 2 (27:01) You're watching, you're seeing what he's doing. And also, he's kind of having conversations with you that are helping you kind of elevate and expand. Speaker 5 (27:06) That's how Speaker 2 (27:07) you even think about the world. Mentally. Okay, and now Pete disappears, and you're back. out on the streets and you guys start getting into some heavier stuff. Speaker 4 (27:14) Pete, yeah, like, you know, when he left, I went back. Actually, when that whole situation he took off, I went back to the streets. I started getting into the gangs and I started getting into, you know, just some real heavy shit, you know, and we started robbing drug dealers. We dress up like cops. We had the cop cars, you know. Speaker 5 (27:32) Like Speaker 4 (27:32) I said, the drug dealing was a real big thing. So I didn't like to sell drugs. Like, I had a lot of friends that did, but I didn't like to see what it did to people. You know, that's why I like the counterfeiting, right? Because it was like, I didn't feel like I was really hurting anyone, you know? I'm not stealing. I don't like to steal. And the drug part, like, I seen what it did. But we would, so we would start robbing them, right? And one of my dudes, he, like, my son, so my first son, his mom's a cop, right? So, like, yeah, right? That's a whole other lane. But we won't go down that one. Speaker 4 (28:05) It allowed, you know, a lot of my guys, we had friends that were cops, so we could get uniforms, we could get badges, you know. I always loved a cop car. And I had a nice one, right? I always had a real nice one. And I loved it because I could move through, see, I'd wear glasses and, you know, make my hair to the side and I looked like a cop, you know. But we started. you know, we'd start robbing the drug dealers. The ones like out in the suburbs. Basically what would happen, these guys from the suburbs would come in and they'd like to hang out at the clubs downtown and they want to flash their money to the girls. We'd have girls that were working for us. So we'd have girls in those clubs and be like, hey, this guy, he's doing this, this, and that. I'm like, okay, cool. And she wouldn't sleep with them, but she'd go home with them, become friends, hang out with them, finesse them. And then we'd come and poof, right? And we'd be like, we'd have... Fess on guns like like Speaker 5 (28:55) legit like dress like cops. Yeah, dude Speaker 4 (28:57) Well, yeah, no and we did that and then it got dangerous It did start getting dangerous because we started getting stupid like, you know at first it was and that's like a police ball or whatever like I mean Speaker 5 (29:07) how stupid he got us get well that's stupid like that we'll play a softball against the fire department or something like what were you guys doing but Speaker 4 (29:14) we were like robbing more dangerous Okay, got it. So it escalated. It escalated. Like all crime. Like all crime escalates. You go from, oh, we're going to hit these white suburban kids from out there. They think they're cool. And now we get our balls so big. We're like, oh, we're going to hit that cat on 18th Street that got 10 guns around him. Oh, yeah. Right? So you go from like. You know, it just escalated. It's escalation Speaker 2 (29:40) ladder. Speaker 4 (29:40) And then I got shot. I got shot in my side. And there was a lot of things that happened that caused me to go to my next phase. Okay, got it. But we did for that little brief, you know, there was, I guess, for about three years maybe, I was just running hard on the street. And who shot you? Latin King. Latin King shot me, tried to kill me. Yeah, yeah. Did he spare your life? No, hell no. Yeah, he tried to kill me. Yeah. No, I was walking home from a party like 2 in the morning. I'm walking through a basketball court, and I hear two guys behind me. I look. They got handkerchiefs on, and I thought it was my dudes from the party. And so I'm like, hey, man, take the handkerchiefs off, man. You're getting me nervous. And they're like, getting you nervous, and boom, they pulled out the pistols and just started just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I turned around. I took off running, put my head between my legs. I could feel the bullets just, right? And then I got hit, and I fell to the ground right as I was almost around the corner from the projects, you know? I got hit, and I stayed on. When I hit the ground, I was just going to stay on the ground and figure they thought they killed me, and they take off. But when I hit the ground, I looked back. They were running up on me. They were going to try to dome shot me, you know? And something real spiritual happened. at that moment. Like I felt something grab me from underneath my armpits, you know, and just kind of like lift me off the ground. And I ran like five blocks to 31st and Halston. I was on 32nd. And was you leaking Speaker 5 (31:11) too? I was leaking. Yeah. You plug it up. Did you plug up the wound with like a... There Speaker 4 (31:15) was a Chicago Tribune guy that was helping me. He might have had a newspaper in it or something. I had Speaker 5 (31:20) to Speaker 4 (31:20) put a newspaper on me. Well, I didn't even know. I didn't even like feel it. It was weird because when I got to 31st and I sat down on the bus stop and I'm like feeling myself, you know, you're all like shaking and stuff. And then, uh, and then I stood back up and I could feel like something on my side. And when I grabbed it, it was just all red and just blood. And I, and I told the Chicago Sun-Town guy, I said, Hey man, I've been hit, man. Called ambulance. Yeah, so then... He Speaker 2 (31:45) was Speaker 4 (31:45) delivering papers? Yeah, delivering papers, yeah. Damn. Yeah, it was like 3 in the morning. But after that, that's when I went to Texas, you know? I was like, my mom was like, man, you gotta go. You know, I've already had at that point like six of my friends murdered, you know? I'm only like 18, 19 years old, you know? So shit was getting hot down there, huh? Well, the South Side was dangerous back then, man. Like I said, guns hit the street, man. It seemed like everyone had one. They were called Larsons. L-L-A-R-S. I mean, it's just... With the type of gun? Yeah. Like right around 90, I'd say like 92, 93. Man, everyone had these things. It was a .22, a .25, and a .380. They were, yeah, they were like that. The little guns. They were real tiny, like that. .22, yeah, that's what we had. Oh, that little... Yeah, that's it. Those things flooded the streets, man. A little grocery getter, you think? Yeah, they were a little tiny, man. But $22, $25, $3.80, and you get them for $50. And it's almost like they dumped them on the street. And then that's, and it just, so it went from, you know, fighting and bats and, you know, like the old school type to just. Yeah, real shit, double dragon shit. Speaker 5 (32:48) Double dragon shit, yeah, to like everyone having these little peace shooters that killed. That's crazy. I wouldn't be surprised. But I Speaker 4 (32:54) lost six of my friends during that time. And so I went to Texas. My mom said, let's get out of here. So I ended up going down to Texas. And Speaker 2 (33:02) when you get down to Texas, is that where your counterfeiting journey kind of continues? Yeah, Speaker 4 (33:07) yeah. So when I went down there, of course, I'm trying to get away from the gang violence. But I'm still me. You know, I'm still a criminal, right? And so I go down there. I start getting with the wrong crowd. I get into a little trouble. I go to prison for like two years. In a Texas prison. Those Texas prisons were rough, too, man. Wow. Was it crazy. I thought I was in hell. But when I got out, my girl Natalie, she picked me up and she took me to a hotel. We did the whole, you know, the whole prison release freedom party. Right. Oh, yes. Sex or whatever. Sex. Yeah. Anyway. And and then we went to the first place I wanted to go was to the bookstore because I read a lot. I read thousands of books. Right. And so I wanted to Bruce Lee book. And so she wanted to get me the Bruce Lee book. So. We go to the bookstore and we're buying the book and she pays with a hundred, the new hundred. I hadn't seen it yet, right? Because I was in prison. And I'm watching, she pays and the lady just pulls out a pen and marks it and then puts it in the drawer. Speaker 4 (34:09) And I'm looking, I'm like, man, already I'm thinking like she didn't even look at the hundred. But she just used the marker. Yeah. And I had, yeah, I just used the marker and that was entrusted fully. And I'm thinking in my mind, I'm like, man, if somebody figured this part out, man, you could have a run. Right. And that's where it started. Right. I just got to beat the marker. Just got to beat the marker. Right. That's the only thing on my mind. I just got to beat that because nobody's looking at it. And, and that's where the