Bishop Robert Barron

This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von

In this episode of 'This Past Weekend,' comedian Theo Von sits down with Catholic Bishop Robert Barron, theologian and founder of Word on Fire

Key takeaways

• Faith is not about self-fulfillment but responding to God's will, even when it comes as a surprise.
• Spiritual growth often begins with small, seemingly ordinary moments—like reading a book in a bookstore.

Main topics

• Catholic theology and identity
• The role of faith in modern society

Notable quotes

You're not waiting at all. You have no idea it's coming.

It's a story of a guy falling in love with God.

Conclusion

The conversation closes with gratitude and a shared prayer, emphasizing the importance of

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) Today's guest is a Catholic bishop. He's one of the leading voices in the Catholic faith today. He started Word on Fire Ministries, and he's written many books on theology. I'm so excited to sit down and have a conversation with Bishop Robert Barron. Speaker 2 (0:34) Bishop Robert Barron, nice to see you. Thank you. Great to be here. Yeah, thank you so much for your time today. I'm delighted. You live in Minnesota. I do. Right, and you're a Catholic bishop from there. Speaker 3 (0:45) Right, so I'm the bishop of the Diocese of Winona, Rochester, which is the southern part of Minnesota. And I live in Rochester right near the Mayo Clinic. I'm like five minutes away from there. Speaker 2 (0:54) Oh, nice. So Speaker 3 (0:55) you Speaker 2 (0:55) probably get to take a lot of visits to like visit with children and their families and stuff like that? Yeah. Speaker 3 (0:59) I visit a lot of sick people there. And so it's probably the leading hospital in the world. And people come from all over the place there. Speaker 2 (1:06) Oh, and you're right there then. I'm right there. You should start a drive-through even. That'd be nice. Yeah. Just bless out the window. Maybe. I don't know. Speaker 1 (1:13) Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Speaker 2 (1:14) Okay. That's one bad idea for me. You started Word on Fire Ministries? Speaker 3 (1:20) It's a media ministry, so it's Speaker 2 (1:22) an Speaker 3 (1:22) evangelical ministry to proclaim the Catholic faith. And I started just with a sermon show on the radio in Chicago 25 years ago. And it's grown now. We use all kinds of things in publishing and podcasting and films now. So it's just been blessed, thank God. And how does somebody become a bishop? Well, you've got to be chosen by the pope. So you really got nothing to do with it. Speaker 3 (1:46) the rector of the seminary in Chicago. So I was head of the seminary, right? And then one day out of the blue, you get a phone call and it came from this guy we call the Apostolic Nuncio, who's like the Vatican ambassador to the US. And he says, the Pope has appointed you. auxiliary bishop of Los Speaker 2 (2:02) Angeles. That was my first bishop appointment. So that's like the NFL draft almost. Is it kind of like that energy? Like you're like waiting for this thing? No, Speaker 3 (2:09) you're not waiting at all. You have no idea it's coming. It was a Sunday afternoon and I'm lying on the couch watching golf. I have my shorts on and a t-shirt and the phone rings. And it's this little Italian voice saying, the Holy Father's appointed you. And then he says, do you accept? Did you think it was a scam or something? No, because I recognize, you know, his name and everything. Okay, so you knew. So you know. But you have no idea it's coming. Because if you're under consideration, no one tells you. It's Speaker 2 (2:37) not Speaker 3 (2:37) like, you know, oh, God, I might get it. You have zero idea. And so just like that, out of the blue, and not we're thinking about appointing you, he's already appointed you. Now, you can say no. You can say, look, I'm not going to do it. But unless you've got like a super good reason, you have to say yes to it. And then, you know. Uproot your entire life, move away from everyone you know. I moved to LA Archdiocese, lived in Santa Barbara, which is pretty good, you know, but I had zero idea. And then four years later or what, five years later, another phone call comes. Holy Father has appointed you Bishop of Winona, Rochester, Minnesota. So off you go. So Speaker 2 (3:14) when the call comes, it's kind of like a call from God kind of coming and you go and take it. Speaker 3 (3:18) Yes. And for years, I used to preach to people, you know, your life's not about you. It's about God, what God wants. Unless you've got a really good reason, you follow God's will. So how could I then stand and say, no, Speaker 2 (3:29) I'm Speaker 3 (3:30) really happy where I am and tell the Pope to forget it. So you kind of have to say yes. Speaker 2 (3:34) Yeah. Wow. That's a big surprise in somebody's life. Did you have a job before you were a bishop? Like, did you just work at somewhere regular? When I was a kid, like when I was 16, I worked at a Speaker 3 (3:44) bookstore. I was like a stock boy in the bookstore. I worked at Steak and Shake for a while as a dishwasher. Go, dude. Yeah, but then I went to college, you know, and then entered the seminary and then did those studies and became a priest when I was about 26. So I didn't have a big career, you know, before I became a priest. Yeah. Speaker 2 (4:02) What was the worst thing you didn't like about dishwashing? Oh, I hated dishwashing. Did Speaker 3 (4:06) you? The heat. No, I thought it was the most obnoxious job I had. I didn't last very long. I quit after a few months. Oh, Speaker 2 (4:12) dang. I hated Speaker 3 (4:12) it. I liked the bookstore job. I was 16 and I was like, you know, stock boy and I was putting books on shelves and stuff. I didn't mind that job. Speaker 2 (4:21) Yeah, I worked at a bookstore when I went to college for a little while. I enjoyed it too. Yeah. Because it's kind of peaceful in there and somebody comes over. Sometimes people are just hiding from their spouse or whatever in there, but sometimes people are looking for a book. Speaker 3 (4:31) Oh, yeah. Speaker 2 (4:31) And you get to help them. And you just kind of start to learn inadvertently. Well, Speaker 3 (4:34) I'll tell you, I discovered a book in that job called The Seventh Story Mountain by a guy named Thomas Merton. Seventh Story Mountain? The Seventh Story Mountain, which had a big impact on me. Merton was this guy, very talented, very accomplished, was in New York, wanted to be a writer, knew all these famous people. And then long story short, he becomes a Catholic. and then wants to become a Trappist monk, which is about as serious a monk as you can become, living in silence and prayer. And the book is the story of his conversion. The Seven-Story Mountain. Have you ever gotten to meet him? Oh, there it is. No, he died in 1968. And he died actually in Bangkok, Thailand. He was there for a conference. I hope Speaker 2 (5:13) he was. And Speaker 3 (5:13) he was electrocuted. Nuh-uh. He was electrocuted, yeah. He gave a speech, went back to his, he was like staying in this sort of like bungalow thing. And they found him with the... standing fan lying on top of him. He had grabbed it and it had a short or something and it killed him. Speaker 2 (5:28) That's Speaker 3 (5:28) how Merton died, which is very ironic and strange, but he was a wonderful figure. And that book right there had a big impact on me when I was a kid. What about it? It's a story of a guy falling in love with God. And so he discovers God and then it's, none of his instincts move that way. He wanted to be a writer. He wanted to be kind of a cool, you know, man of the world. And then he starts gradually falling in love with God. And it's told in almost like this romantic way. He was a poet, a very fine poet, actually. And the book, and I was 16 at the time. And so it kind of gets caught up in all that. And it's a very human story. And it's beautifully told, too. So that impacted me big time when I was about 16. Speaker 2 (6:09) Yeah, I've heard you talk about Thomas Merton before in some of your different podcasts and different lectures. Speaker 3 (6:15) Well, he was one of the great spiritual writers of the last century. So if you want to know how to pray, how to approach prayer, what prayer is, how to live the spiritual life, he's a guy that you turn to. Speaker 2 (6:28) To get a little bit towards Catholicism. So Catholicism is a branch of Christianity? What's the difference of being a Catholic and being a Christian? Speaker 3 (6:39) Well, I mean, of course a Catholic is a Christian, so you're a follower of Jesus Christ. We would maintain that the Catholic Church is the true church. It's founded by Jesus Christ. You get to the Reformation, and you have people that were quarreling with different aspects of Catholicism and broke off from it, so Lutherans and Calvinists and all the various. sub-branches thereof. But, you know, we maintain that the Catholic Church has all the gifts that Christ wants his people to have, that it's the fullness of what Christ wanted. But then we recognize, you know, the Protestant churches, of course, have all kinds of gifts that Christ wants too. But the Catholic Church, we would maintain, obviously, has the fullness of it. Understood. How would you define God? Speaker 3 (7:19) Well, probably the simplest way to say God is the creator of all things. So there's the world of things, right? The world we're in all the time. You and me in this place and we go outside. The world of ordinary things, even the planet Jupiter and our galaxies is the world of things. But they don't explain themselves, right? Nothing in the world explains itself. It is, but doesn't have to be. So we look for causes. That's all of science, right? Looks for what caused this to be here. Why are you and I here right now? We can look for all kinds of reasons. How about those things? Do they have to be there? Well, no, they were caused by other things. Then we say, well, God is the uncaused cause. God is the first mover. God is the reason why there's anything at all. So what's cool about that is God is not a thing in the world. There's you and me and the planet Jupiter and God and the Empire State Building. No, no, that's the wrong way to think about it, right? God is the reason why there's anything at all. So you might say he's the creator of all things, to put it in religious language. He's the ground of being, philosophers might say, right? And I would say the reason why there's something rather than nothing, that's God. Speaker 3 (8:28) Interesting. That's the cool question that philosophers have asked. And some people just find it nonsensical. Others say it's the most important question of all. Why is there something rather than nothing? The answer to that question is God, I would Speaker 2 (8:39) say. How does God operate? Because you'll hear people will say stuff like, well, that's part of God's plan, right? But then if something horrible happens, then they're like. well, God can help you through this, right? Like, does he cause bad things to happen or does he just there for us if something, no matter what happens? So Speaker 3 (9:00) he's the cause of all things, right? So God is responsible for all that exists in the world. You say, what about evil? Well, evil is not a thing. Evil is a lack of being. Speaker 2 (9:10) Remember in the Lord of the Rings, Speaker 3 (9:12) I don't know if you're a Lord of the Rings guy, but remember the Nazgul of these things that fly around and these dragons and everything? And they look so fearsome, but when they finally stab at them, the cloak falls away and there's nothing there. That was Tolkien's way of saying this truth, that evil is frightening, but essentially it's a type of non-being. It's a lack of a good that ought to be there, like a cavity in a tooth. So the cavity, you say, man, it's real and it hurts. But the cavity itself is just an emptiness, right? Evil is like that, physical evil or moral evil. Moral evil is a lack of an integrity that ought to be there in your soul. So in that way, you can't say God's the cause of evil because God is the cause of all being, right? So then you have to say, well, God permits evil. And that's true. He allows it to be. Now, why then pick up the book of Job? It's the best biblical wrestling with that, right? And God's great answer to Job when he's like, why am I suffering? Why is all this happening to me? And God says, where were you when I made the heavens and the earth? And where were you when I laid the foundations of the world? And where were you? You know everything. You tell me. In other words, why God permits suffering, we can't really see. Sometimes we can in little ways, right? Where you say, gosh, if that hadn't happened to me. Oh, yeah. Sometimes we can see it. But very often you can't. That shouldn't surprise us, right? If God, who's the source of all existence, who's concerned about all of space and all of time, he's got a design for that, that I can't see it, well, of course, duh, of course I can't understand all of it. But I accept that God permits evil to bring about some greater good. That's the classical answer to that question. But it's cool. You're pursuing it the right way, see, which is God is not the cause of evil. But he permits evil to Speaker 2 (11:08) allow for some greater good. I see. So you believe that in the end, it all ends good? In the Speaker 3 (11:15) end, it ends according to God's design. And God is love, right? And so to love is to will the good of the other. And so that's what God wants. God wants the good of the other. But how precisely it all works out, I don't really know. But, you know, St. Paul, all things work together for the good for those who love the Lord. That's it. That's the right sort of theological vision. Speaker 2 (11:37) How do I best start, like, my relationship with God? Would you suggest to somebody who's, like, maybe has felt God, that feels like God exists in the world? Like, I mean, I've felt that for sure. I've always thought that God existed, but only recently have I started to feel more of a relationship. How do you suggest that someone starts to kind of begin their relationship with God? Speaker 3 (12:00) You know what Thomas Merton said? Someone asked him that question. He said, take the time. In other words— dedicate some time every day to God. So I begin every day with what I call a holy hour. which is made popular, by the way, by this fellow, Fulton Sheen. Does that name ring a bell? Fulton Sheen. Bring him up. Fulton Sheen. Bring him up because we're about to beatify him. Just in a few days, in fact. Really? There he is. That's the last step before canonization, become a saint, right? So Fulton Sheen was this great mid-20th century figure, teacher, writer. He was one of the first to use radio and TV. Oh, he's beatiful. So we're beatifying him just in a few weeks. And what does Speaker 2 (12:41) beatifying mean, just so we know? Speaker 3 (12:42) Well, it's the last step before canonization, which is sainthood. But like beatus in Latin means happy. Okay. So like we say the beatific vision, that's heaven. It means happiness, that when I look at this thing, it makes me happy. Okay. That's heaven, the beatific vision. So a beatus would be a happy person, right? Because he's so ordered to God. So did he Speaker 2 (13:05) have to work really hard to be happy probably? He was a pretty happy guy, Sheen. Like by temperament, he was. So a little insider trading kind of. Right. But what Speaker 3 (13:14) he gave us, which I really love, is he called the holy hour, which is every day as a Catholic, spend an hour in front of the Blessed Sacrament. So, you know, we believe in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. And so every morning, that's what I do. I go to my chapel in my house and I pray for an hour. And it could be, like we have a thing called the office that a priest has to pray. It's psalms and canticles and things from the Bible and readings and stuff. But you can also pray the rosary, which I do. You can also just sit in silence. There's this one saint that said, what do you do when you're looking at the Blessed Sacrament? And he said, I look at him Speaker 2 (13:50) and he looks at me. Speaker 1 (13:52) And Speaker 3 (13:52) that's pretty good that you sit in silence. In Speaker 2 (13:55) a meditative state. It's meditative. Speaker 3 (13:58) Right. And so we call that mental prayer sometimes in the Catholic tradition. But I would recommend that is take—and it might not be an hour. Maybe you have to build up to that. But even take five minutes to focus on the Lord. Now, it might be you're going to read something from the Scripture, which is great. It might be if you're Catholic, you pray the rosary or pray a decade of the rosary. That just kind of focuses your mind. You know, the Buddhists have this thing. The monkey mind they talk about. The monkey mind is jumping around from branch to branch. Well, that's the way most of us live. Or like you wake up at 3 o'clock in the morning and your monkey mind is kicked in and you're thinking about. And they talk about calming the monkey mind, right? Merton, in fact, who understood Buddhism very well, thought prayers like the rosary have that effect. Because all you do, you repeat the Hail Mary, full of grace, Lord is with thee, blessed are thou. Hail Mary, full of grace, Lord is with thee. Hail Mary, full of Speaker 2 (14:53) grace. A Speaker 3 (14:53) mantra. It's like a mantra. Speaker 2 (14:54) It's a Catholic Speaker 3 (14:55) mantra. And what that does, many things, but it calms and focuses the soul, right? That's the great thing about prayer. And I'd recommend to you or anybody, take the time and find a way to get focused on the Lord. That's a good starting place. And Speaker 2 (15:14) how honest do you have to be with God? Speaker 3 (15:16) Well, see, the thing is with God, God knows everything anyway because he's the source of existence. So if you're not Speaker 2 (15:22) being honest, if you're being secretive, he already— What's Speaker 3 (15:24) the Speaker 2 (15:24) point? And that's what I mean. But it feels like there's some point to us. You know what I'm saying? Like it feels like—or there's a fear to do it or something. But Speaker 3 (15:32) see, it's stupid. It's a stupid thing because God knows everything already. So what are you keeping from him? Or if you feel like I can just say these very kind of exalted, pious things to God. Look at the Bible. Look at the Psalms. The Psalms are filled with people angry at God, and they're exalting, they're praising God, they're frustrated, they're tearing their hair out. Speaker 2 (15:52) Oh, yeah. It's PG-13 over there for sure. Right, that's how you should Speaker 3 (15:55) pray. So why not be honest with God about everything, about your sins? He knows them anyway. So I think praying with honesty is super important. But a lot of religious people, we kind of deceive ourselves and think, well, okay, I won't mention that to God, so it should be Speaker 2 (16:10) okay. But then when you're keeping a – when you have a secret, though, that's where, like, it feels like the devil can get in, you know, when you have kind of like a seed of distrust. Speaker 3 (16:20) Because he's the father of lies, right? Is he? Yes, that's one of the titles of Speaker 2 (16:24) the Speaker 3 (16:24) devil. What the heck? I Speaker 2 (16:24) didn't even know that. Speaker 3 (16:25) Yeah, and that's actually a really good, interesting—he's the murderer from the beginning, but he's also the father of lies. Speaker 2 (16:30) Oh, Speaker 3 (16:30) murder from Speaker 2 (16:31) the beginning is way worse, I think, but definitely— No, Speaker 3 (16:33) but— Speaker 2 (16:33) That's definitely additional charges. But they're related, Speaker 3 (16:35) because when Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life. Yeah. See, when you get on beam with him, you're on beam with what's truest about you, but also about all of reality. The devil's favorite move, therefore, is to lie, deceive, distract. Oh, that's not really true. And how often when we're not in touch with reality, we get so unhappy. And that's not an accident. So getting someone on the beam of truth is getting them on the beam of Christ, I would say, because he announced Speaker 2 (17:07) himself as the truth. Yes. Sometimes I'll pray and it's like, I would want to keep things. Now I'm trying to be very specific, you know, like I just, cause I don't want it anymore. I don't want to, to not have, I want, I don't want something to be. Speaker 2 (17:22) like just mine, if that makes any sense. If it's bad. Speaker 3 (17:27) Yeah. Like Speaker 2 (17:28) if I feel like it's bad. Speaker 3 (17:29) Yeah. Speaker 2 (17:30) Or it's like a sin or something I've done that's wrong or something I've been thinking about or something I'm afraid of. It's like I don't want to just keep it to myself because I can't handle it. Speaker 3 (17:39) Yes. And look, see, from a Catholic standpoint, the beauty of confession, that we have the sacrament. You know, Jordan Peterson said this one time, to go before a representative of God. to admit your failure and your weakness and your sin and to seek the grace of God to do better? He said, I can't imagine anything psychologically healthier than that. Wow. And he was talking about Catholic confession. Because it gets portrayed times like, oh, this weird thing. You go into this box and you mutter your sins to a priest. Well, that's a caricature. It's standing before the Lord, someone who represents him, because we're not angels. We have bodies. That's why the sacraments are physical and why you actually speak to somebody. But he's a representative of God in that way. And you're telling God. He's Speaker 2 (18:27) a representative of God. The Speaker 3 (18:28) priest, let's say, if you go into confession. Speaker 2 (18:30) Oh, Speaker 3 (18:30) I see what you're saying. And you go to the priest and you confess your sins. You're speaking to God, really, and saying, Lord, I want to be honest with you. This is what's wrong with me right now. I'm not okay. I'm not doing well. And here's why. And then you seek the grace of God. That's beautiful. Because the father of lies would love it if we just never admit that. Oh, Speaker 2 (18:53) no, I'm fine. I'm okay and you're okay. We're all doing great. Don't tell me Speaker 3 (18:57) I've done anything wrong. That's all a lie. And in confession, that's the beauty of it. I'm admitting how off kilter I am, you know, and then I'm asking for grace. That's a beautiful thing. There's confession. Oh, Speaker 2 (19:11) that's pretty cool. Speaker 3 (19:12) Yeah, but you know, the way most Catholics now go to confession would be face to face. I mean, you Speaker 2 (19:17) just Speaker 3 (19:17) sit down with the priest like the way we are. Oh, really? You can still go behind the screen and all. That's up to the individual. When I first started going to confession as a kid, it would have been, you know, behind the screens like that. But you can have this kind of direct conversation too. Speaker 2 (19:30) How has God shown grace in your life, do you feel like personally, if you don't mind if I ask? No, I mean like— Just so we can even talk about it because I think about it a lot, you know. When I think about that, there's nothing like— that's one of the strongest thoughts that I have sometimes is just how much grace God's shown. Right. Yeah, Speaker 3 (19:50) I'm Speaker 2 (19:50) a Speaker 3 (19:50) big Bob Dylan guy. I don't know if Speaker 2 (19:51) you Speaker 3 (19:51) know that, but I love Bob Dylan. During his Christian period, he's got this song, I look around this whole world and all that I'm finding is the saving grace that's over me. And that's the way religious people in their more ecstatic moments talk. Because that's what it means. Grace just means free gift. Well, what's a free gift is my being, because I don't have to exist. There's nothing necessary about me. So the fact that I am and that I'm alive, that's a grace. Now you can start to name within that all kinds of particular things. You know where I was this morning? So Speaker 2 (20:22) our own existence is a grace. Speaker 3 (20:24) Yes, because you don't have to be. See, God is perfectly happy without the world. That's a very important theological truth. God does not need the world. He does not need anything outside of himself. Really? Yes, because God is perfect. God Speaker 2 (20:37) is the sheer act of existence. God is perfect in every way. So then he must have created it with a purpose then. And Speaker 3 (20:43) the only purpose that we can identify is not an... a needy purpose. But God needs nothing. Therefore, whatever he does is done out of purest love. Because Thomas Aquinas, along with Bob Dylan, my other great hero, Thomas Aquinas, this great medieval theologian, right? He says that to love is to will the good of the other. And Speaker 2 (21:05) when Speaker 3 (21:05) you think about that, Speaker 2 (21:05) that's a really rare, weird thing. So let me say it again. To love is to will the good of the other. Of the other as other. Wait, to will the good of the other as other. Speaker 3 (21:17) Yeah, and I'm kind of intensifying it to make the point. So let's say I'm nice to you, that you might be nice to me. So that's the way most of us sinners operate. So I'll be... you know, kind to you as long as you're kind to me. The minute you get obnoxious to me, I'm going to be obnoxious to you. That's the way most of us operate most of the time because we're doing it out of some kind of need. I'm not really willing your good. Now, love. But you're hoping that something good will come out of it, that I'll get something for me. It'll redound to my benefit. Okay, understood. But see, and it's beautiful when it happens, and it does happen in the world when a parent. Speaker 2 (21:54) or a spouse or whoever. Right, they have to love you because they just want you to be okay. Speaker 3 (22:01) They just want your good. Or think of, you know, in a Catholic setting, we always go to the martyrs. I don't know if you know the same Maximilian Kolbe. Does that ring a bell? Speaker 2 (22:10) He was a Speaker 3 (22:11) great saint during the Nazi period. He was a prisoner in Auschwitz, right? He was an opponent of Hitler, so Hitler arrested him. He's a Franciscan friar. There he is. And he's got the Auschwitz garb on there. Because the Nazis had a thing where if someone escaped from the barracks, they'd bring everybody out into the yard, and they would pick 10 at random and then starve them to death. It was like this horrible thing. Speaker 2 (22:36) Just if someone escaped? Right. As a payment? Speaker 3 (22:38) Right. So someone escaped from his barracks, and they brought the people out, and they picked out 10. He was not one of them. But this one man fell to his knees and started crying, and he said, I'm a husband, I'm a father, you know, please. So Colby stepped out of line and he just said, I'm a Catholic priest. Take me in his place. And Colby barely knew this guy. He's in the barracks with him, I guess, but barely knew him. And so they starved him to death. Wow. And it was John Paul II who knew that story from the time in Poland and kind of brought it to the attention of the world. But now that's love, see, the willing, the good of the other. What was in it for him? Well, it's in it for Colby. Yeah. And so, see, it's like... It's unbelievable. It's like a black hole. You know, a black hole will draw everything into itself, right? That's what most of our souls are like. We want to draw the world in. Love is breaking the gravitational pull of the black hole of the ego and saying, I really want what's good for you. And in a while, we say, see, God is love. That's what God is because he doesn't need anything. He can't do anything out of self-interest. So my existence, our being in this room, is itself an expression of love. It has to be. So then the trick is, as you get closer to God, you become more conformed to that, which is why the saints are so weird. That's why the saints are so weird to us because they're not operating in this ordinary sphere. So we talk about like supernatural virtue. That's Colby. That's all the Speaker 2 (24:17) saints. They have supernatural because they're very close to the way God is. So the greatest thing that we can do is try to love in a completely like selfless way. Right. And it's not Speaker 3 (24:27) easy. And that's why I see it requires prayer. I can't really will myself into that state. I have to kind of be open. to God's grace transforming me. And Speaker 2 (24:39) prayer helps that. Speaker 3 (24:40) Yes. You might say it's the only way because like, you know, Aristotle or Plato would have said these virtues like, you know, courage and prudence and justice. You can kind of practice your way to them. Okay. But the theological virtues, faith, hope, and love, see, that's why they're theological. I can't really practice my way. I can just say, Lord, make me like this. Bring me into line with your way of being. And it's kind of a miracle when it happens. Speaker 2 (25:08) Yeah, sometimes I notice if I'm having trouble with something, and I don't even think that I want to. Sometimes I'll want something, but I won't want to do it. Yeah. Does that make any sense to you? The good that I would do is that that I don't do. St. Paul Speaker 3 (25:22) says that, Romans 7. So, Speaker 2 (25:24) yeah, my brother was saying that I should ask for the willingness to do it sometimes. Like sometimes it's like a little bit of like a crack in the door. Like if I can't, like if I don't have the power to do it myself, maybe sometimes I can pray just to ask God for willingness. Like God, even just make me willing to try this. Speaker 3 (25:41) Maybe the Holy Spirit's kind of led us to Merton that way because one of Thomas Merton's famous prayers begins, My Lord God, I have no idea where I'm going. It's Speaker 2 (25:51) a Speaker 3 (25:51) great way to start a prayer. I don't know. But one of the things in there is, and the fact that I think I'm doing a will doesn't mean I'm actually doing so. But I believe the desire to please you does in fact please you. And may I have that desire in all that I do. That's a cool prayer, see? He's lost. I don't know where I'm going. And I don't even know if I'm doing your will. But the desire to please you. in fact, pleases you. So let me have that anyway. Amen. That's a good way to pray. Speaker 2 (26:27) I'll be honest that in the past, I was hesitant to invest. I felt like I didn't know enough or maybe I was too late. I wasn't timing things right. The truth is that so many of us only focus on where our