837: Caper's Dana Brown Thinks AI Can't Touch Food, Eater Lost the Plot, and There's a New McNally Worth Betting On

This Is TASTE

In this episode of 'This Is TASTE,' host Matt Rodbard welcomes Dana Brown, newly appointed editor-in-chief of Caper, a food media startup known for its insider, power-and-money-driven coverage

Key takeaways

• AI cannot replicate the human elements of food experiences such as ambiance, creativity, and emotional resonance in restaurants.
• Caper differentiates itself from traditional service journalism by focusing on behind-the-scenes narratives, power dynamics, and cultural impact within the food world.

Main topics

• The role of AI in food and media
• Caper's editorial mission and unique approach to food journalism

Notable quotes

"I think there are two worlds that are going to sort of survive the AI apocalypse. Obviously, there will be more, but two sort of came to me, and I said sports and food."

"You're not going to be able to walk into a place like Bridges and have a robot or an AI either create the room, create the ambiance, create that food, come up with the creativity."

Conclusion

Dana Brown's journey from Vanity Fair insider to editor-in-chief of Caper underscores a shift in food journalism toward deeper, more narrative-driven

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:07) There was a very famous writer, and I'm not going to name him because this could be semi-apocryphal, but he was doing a Washington story, and it was sort of a big-name journalist. And I forget what hotel we put him up. I think either the Hay-Adams or the Jefferson. He stayed there for so long that he rang up a $50,000 hotel bill. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard. Speaker 2 (0:35) It's the return of food writers talking about food writing. Every couple of weeks, I invite a journalist to talk about some favorite recent food writing, as well as their thoughts on the industry as a whole. Dana Brown was a fixture of Vanity Fair's Oscar Party machine and Graydon Carter's inner circle for more than two decades, before writing it all down in his memoir, Deletante. He returns to the studio with a new job. editor-in-chief of Caper, the scoop-driven media startup applying a puck-style power and money lens to restaurants, chefs, and the food business. In this episode, we talk about the economics of the grill, the McNally legacy, and what's good in the world of Caper. I hope you enjoy this episode. Speaker 2 (1:22) Dana Brown, welcome to This Is Taste. It's another episode of Food Writers talking about food writing. How are you doing, man? Very, very well. Thank you for having me. Well, as our listeners know, I'm a huge fan of Caper. I love what you've been doing there, and I think the editors and yourself are really shaking things up in the best way. So congrats. Thank you. Before we get to—we'll have a general convo about Caper, and then we'll get into some stories. We have some food writing that we want to discuss. Dana, where Speaker 1 (1:50) have you been dining out recently in New York? Oh, God. You know what? This is so embarrassing for me, but I'm such a creature of habit. Same. And I'm such a creature of geography and staying close to home. I'm like the last person I know who still lives in Manhattan. And so it really has like so much of the exciting food in New York is Brooklyn. I mean, I do find myself out there often. I, you know, listen, I think that stretch of DeKalb and Fort Greene is just one of the best in the city. You know, Sailor, Romans, I think are fantastic Mercedes. You know, I went for the first time, and I think it was one of those places I lied about for about two years about being like, yeah, I love it. And I'd never been. I finally went to Thai Diner, which I thought was just fantastic. Speaker 1 (2:43) really reasonably priced. It was the strangest Speaker 2 (2:46) feeling. Speaker 1 (2:47) My son was with me and he's unfortunately for my wallet a lobster fanatic. Their half lobster is like $18. I haven't seen – I mean you're paying $50 for a lobster roll, which is probably not even half a lobster in a hot dog bun. I thought that was really – it felt – it had like an old school New York vibe. Like if that place had existed in the 90s, I would have believed it. Like sure, this has been around for 30 years. Yeah, Speaker 2 (3:12) Matt and Ann are doing a crazy good job there. I love that place. It's so funny when you say that place that I say I've been to. Oh, there's so many. Oh, yeah. I totally love it. I mean like Sailor is a great example. Like I've never been to Sailor. I love – I love her. She's great. Speaker 1 (3:26) But Speaker 2 (3:26) I think people will be like, oh, yeah, totally, totally. Yeah, I love Sailor. Like, I've never met. So we can admit. Speaker 1 (3:32) It's so hard to get into places. I know. It's insane. I know, I know. This getting a reservation, going, you know, standing. I'm not going to stand on a line. I'm one of those, like, old school New Yorkers. Like, I see a line, I'm going somewhere else. But, you know, there's so much great food in this city that it's just, it's. It's hard to go wrong. Yeah, and through Caper, you Speaker 2 (3:52) know, I'm discovering a lot of cool places. I mean, you know, Emma, I'm not paying any favors. I like all your writers personally, actually. They're all great people. But I love like what Emma writes about restaurants. Like I'm always learning about new spots. I wrote her last week. I was like, man, you have some great spots in here. Speaker 1 (4:07) It's so embarrassing that I use Emma's writing. And I pretend it's my own knowledge when I'm talking about restaurants. And like she will write, I will embarrassingly have never heard of anything that she writes about or not anything. But I will absolutely sneak into conversation and be like, oh, have you been to Speaker 2 (4:24) Confidant? You know, I Speaker 1 (4:26) hear it's Speaker 2 (4:27) really great Speaker 1 (4:27) or whatever. It's good. It's what your staffers are there for. Yeah. All right. So how Speaker 2 (4:32) did you get to Caper and like in general? I've spoken with other people on this show. I've spoken with Emma. But tell me, what gap were you filling as editor-in-chief of Caper when you launched it six months ago? I Speaker 1 (4:47) think, what did I bring to this? You know, it sort of happened accidentally, as so many things do. I happen to have been sitting next to, he's one of our co-founders, Dan Ticinis. I was sitting next to him at a random dinner in the back room of Bar Oliver. that an old writer friend of mine put together. And he was like, yeah, just come down. It's about, you know, 16 people, fun group. And I happened to be sitting next to this guy. I had no idea who he was. And he had worked at Puck. And I, you know, John Kelly's an old coworker and friend. And I know Puck people. And he asked me, you know, he'd read my book and knew my history at Vanity Fair. And he asked me point blank. He said, would you ever get back into media, into launching something? And it was really the furthest thing from my mind. I'd been, I'd been, Writing a lot of screenplays and films and things like that. I've been, you know, in my pajamas till 4 p.m. till I motivate to potentially go to the gym. And I was sort of happy with my life. And I said to him, honestly, I was like, you know, I just I think I am too old for this shit. And secondly, I was like, I don't understand media anymore. I come from such a simple time and it really sort of scares me. And then talking about technology and AI, I was like, it's just everything gets disrupted every six months and it changes and a business model can make no sense six months later. And I said, no, I think it's really saturated for the most part. And then I paused and this is why I'm now stuck at Caper. I paused and I said, I think there are two worlds that are going to sort of survive the AI apocalypse. Obviously, there will be more, but two sort of came to me, and I said sports and food. I said I think sports and food are going to be okay moving forward. I don't think a computer can replicate, you know, Game 4 Knicks comeback from 29 points down. You know, I was at the U.S. Open the other day, and there was a five-setter, and I didn't stay until 2 a.m. Speaker 1 (6:47) AI can't disrupt that. Technology can't. And food's the same way. I mean, sure, there is technology coming into food. There will be robots making fast food at some point. But you're not going to be able to walk into a place like Bridges and have a robot or an AI either create the room, create the ambiance, create that food, come up with the creativity. And so that was my mistake. I said that to Dan. And he said, well, it's funny enough, you know, we're looking, kicking the tires on something in the food world. So he Speaker 2 (7:16) didn't even give Speaker 1 (7:16) you a tell. No. Speaker 2 (7:18) That he was launching. And I know Dan as well. Good Speaker 1 (7:20) guy. Totally random. And that sort of set it off. And that set up a meeting with Max, who is now the CEO and a co-founder. And he had come from The Athletic and he had been at Puck. And so he's really as far as sort of media that's based on subscription. He and newsletters, he really, you know, was was was there sort of from the ground. And slowly we just sort of put this plan together. And what intrigued me, you know, I've never been in service journalism. I have never like I were allergic to it at Vanity Fair. Like literally like Speaker 2 (7:59) we made fun of that. Yes. Yes. And if anything Speaker 1 (8:02) was felt to service, it was just like, no, no, no, this is not happening. So to me, what was interesting about their pitch and what they wanted to do was that it wasn't service journalism. It was the complete opposite. It felt very familiar to me from working at Vanity Fair for so long in that, you know, it was sort of behind the scenes insider take. What's the real story here? And that to me was very exciting. It was about the personalities. It was about sort of the business and culture of food and restaurants. You know, and I really felt like restaurants don't get their due as cultural institutions. And if you look at, you know, we used to do restaurant stories, especially a lot of sort of looking back. Well, you edited Speaker 2 (8:47) Adrian Gill. And I edited Adrian Gill. Which is like, I Speaker 1 (8:50) love that. I love his Speaker 2 (8:51) work. Speaker 1 (8:52) Which really sort of taught me a lot about criticism in restaurants. But even, you know, we would do stories all the time about, you know, you think about like Capote's swans. The FX show that was on last year. And like, that was like kind of a restaurant story. You know, it was about a singular restaurant. You talk about, you talk about things that happen in restaurants. You talk about like the Odeon, the Odeon. is like a symbol of a whole decade of New York. And it was a reason that it was on Jay McInerney's Bright Lights Big City book cover. Like, it is iconic. And SNL opening credits. Speaker 2 (9:27) SNL opening credits. Like, Speaker 1 (9:28) even like El Teddy's was in the opening credits for a long time. You know, El Teddy's to me still brings back like going there for the first time and the fish tank. So that's really what sort of hooked me in. It was like this is not service journalism. This is treating restaurants and food with with real cultural respect. Speaker 2 (9:44) But also great sentiment there. Totally agree. Restaurants deserve more than just being on fucking listicles and shit like that. But like you also treated restaurants as places for scoops. mattered and where inside information mattered. And I think like looking at 2005 Eater and we'll get to your piece on Eater later on. Yeah. They were like doing that well. And then we somehow retreated from that era. Now, Caper has entered in a not quite 05 Eater. It's not snarky. It's like open minded, though you take on controversial subjects and certainly. weighed into controversy yourselves, which is probably a sign of good journalism when you cause controversy. I hope. But like, what is the blend of like, you want like your readers to like know the inside stories and break some news, but you also want them to go out Speaker 1 (10:32) to eat somewhere cool. I think it's, you know, we live in an era and, you know, and this began with the digital age of like, there is so much information out there. And you can learn everything you want to know about anything at the touch of a button. And I think people are obsessed with scholarship. And I think people are obsessed with knowing as much as they can about something. And, you know, you could say that about, you know, you look at something like Deadline Hollywood, which began as essentially a trade publication. But, you know, Hollywood isn't. as big of a trade as you think it is. And so most of their audience are actually people who just love movies but want to know everything about the box office. What was the arc of this? Oh, it was optioned by this person. I was looking at the, there was a story about the Wile E. Coyote Roadrunner movie. And it was like, it was a 1990 story from the New Yorker. that had been optioned and dumped and optioned and dumped and optioned and dumped for like 35 years before it got made into a movie. And like people are, I'm, I'm, I love knowing this sort of backstory. What's the backstory to this thing? Um, and I think it's, it's, we felt that that was needed in restaurants, that there are enough people that are obsessed with restaurants. And you look at, you know, how hard it is to get into restaurants. Like people are obsessed, you know, whether it's status dining. Whether it's actually an obsession with food, people are obsessed with restaurants. And our sort of idea was to sort of focus on this scholarship so that someone could walk into a restaurant and say, oh, yeah, those light fixtures. That's that cool couple out in Red Hook that's doing all the lighting that all the cool restaurants are using. Looking at, you know, I was just talking about a story with someone about fonts. on menus and on signage and restaurants to be able to look at a font and be like, oh yeah, that's the, they've bailed on Helvetica too now, you know, unlike the other people. Oh, the sommelier comes up to show you the wine list. You're like, oh, this is the guy that was fired from so-and-so for inappropriate behavior, like whatever. People want to know that stuff and people like to have knowledge. And I think it's really important this day and age when like in Speaker 2 (12:52) all industries, knowing about the New York City restaurant scene, eventually you may be in LA, knowing about the scenes there, actually cultural cachet is important in your life. And that's why many of us read Puck and like I don't work in Hollywood, but Speaker 1 (13:04) I Speaker 2 (13:04) read Matt Bellany because it's like interesting. And he's a great writer and he like causes and like your writers are on their way. But like all of that said, how do you get people to like read your stuff? Because right now, Now, it's really hard in an era of like Instagram clips, which like ironically, this is what we do here on the show. And like more people will see the clips of us talking about this and potentially reading, you know, us in discourse on like an article that I wrote about you. So how do you get people to like read your Speaker 1 (13:32) words on the page? I mean, that's the battle, right? I mean, what we're sort of fighting against right now, and this was also. you know, coming, coming back into media and trying to build something like that's the thing that kind of scared me. And, you know, if you look at, you know, this is a business of, it's an email business, right? Like it's a, it's a newsletter business. Obviously we have a website and if you have a subscription, you can, you can come and you can read everything. I think it's really brand building. You know, the amount of people I know who compliment me on caper and say, I love it. but actually aren't subscribed, but just think they are and see it on Instagram and like the aesthetic and like what we're talking about and like the headlines. Like that's the battle, right? Like you are building a brand at this point to slowly convert people to be like, oh wait, there's more to Speaker 2 (14:24) this? Speaker 1 (14:24) Right, then like Speaker 2 (14:25) instead of like Hump a Man, like Annie's Speaker 1 (14:26) article about Daniel Hum, like, Speaker 2 (14:27) you know, doing some stuff downtown, like. Speaker 1 (14:30) Yeah, I mean, but it's, it really is, you know, it's finding those stories and it's getting people, whether they're, actually subscribing and reading the things, they're knowing what we're talking about and they're knowing what we're about. You know, you're constantly trying. And I, you know, it's funny because I, you know, I started at Vanity Fair in like the pre-digital age where it was literally a... business based on this thing that you put on newsstands once a month. And you would have to come up with the best cover lines so that someone's walking by the newsstand and they maybe want to pick up a magazine and something catches their eye and you're like, oh, that's what I want. And now the headline is like the email subject line. Like it's basically that's what it is. Like how do I, you know, there's so much data and information. It's like you can look at open rates and you can see like. If you're particularly proud of an email subject line, you're like, this one's going to work. And you see that it's an 80 % open rate, and you're like, yes, that's it. And it's really just chipping away at people. Do you Speaker 2 (15:26) feel really hampered, though? Like two hands behind your back are tied? Just given you're working against the inbox of those subject lines, you're not working against 50 titles. You're working against thousands of emails. And just like people in general just like video now. They just like love video. And they like podcasts too in some ways. Speaker 1 (15:45) And I mean, personally, I like the challenge. Great. And unlike in the past when it was just print, like you didn't know. You didn't have the information. You couldn't see. That's sort of new to me to be able to really see that and be like, oh, this one really popped. Or you see, you know, we obviously have an Instagram format for our stories that we put on. And to see that. that sort of forwarded button and how many are there. It's like, okay, that worked, this headline worked. And it's just about getting better and better and better. It's about, you know, it really is, you're selling an aesthetic and you're selling this sort of like, this is, you're selling a story and you're selling a narrative. And, you know, the hope is that. People start paying for this stuff. Absolutely. And I hope they do. I really do. You do. I mean, for sure. I like Speaker 2 (16:30) having a healthy media environment. I mean, I'm sure we're going after similar partners with our businesses, but like, I don't think we need to like compete. It goes the same with all the other newsletter startups. I think it's great that food media has like a healthy industry. Agree. You're very scoops driven, and I love that. Dana, give us a couple scoops of the past few months that you've published that you're really happy with and really represents what Caper does in the news cycle scoop system. Speaker 1 (16:56) You know what? I mean, the scoops we seem to get a lot, and they sort of come surprisingly fast and just appear. Like, I remember Chris Crowley, who's like Emma, is just sort of like an old hand in New York and seems to be connected everywhere. Um, you know, he got the, he got the scoop on, on where Deschamps was going in New York city. And, you know, this came in and I, I, you know, these are, they're really good reporters and they, they are experienced and they know how to dig to find leases and liquor licenses and, and, you know, what people are applying for. And like, that was something we were like, you know what, let's get this out ASAP. Like someone else will get this. And when you get a scoop like that, you really see results like. instantaneously and you see that it starts a conversation and it's part of a bigger conversation about all these amazing London Indian restaurants that are coming to New York and that becomes it opens up other sources that are coming to you for other things. You know like that was just one example I mean I wish I could think of all the scoops we've had. You mentioned Annie's story about Daniel Hum and his new restaurant Hum which I think is opening in the next couple months. Speaker