He Built a UFO Summoning Frequency Device, Then the CIA Showed Up | Greg Mallozzi

THIRD EYE DROPS

Filmmaker Greg Mallozzi joins the show to discuss two interconnected documentaries exploring historical figures who bridged UFO contact, consciousness research, and government intelligence. The conversation centers on

Key takeaways

• Andrew Puharich conducted remote viewing and channeling experiments with 'The Nine' in the early 1950s, years before SRI or Project Stargate formalized the protocols.
• Willard Van de Bogart received telepathic downloads during UFO encounters instructing him to build a half-sphere synthesizer device called the Aethership to communicate via acoustic frequencies.

Main topics

• Andrew Puharich and 'The Nine' channeling sessions
• Early remote viewing and SRI/CIA history

Notable quotes

"I truly feel like she's the missing link to so many of these stories that have happened."

Conclusion

The episode demonstrates how historical pioneers used sound, trance states, and

Transcript preview

Speaker 6 (0:00) You say, oh, this is like Close Encounters of the Third Kind, but Speaker 4 (0:02) happening Speaker 6 (0:03) in real life. They're driving a deserted road, dark, and, you know, big light. He sees, he gets out of the car, it's there, it disappears, he gets this downloaded. But he's sort of told, I guess, to build this big machine, I guess you would call it, which is essentially a... of different synthesizers and keyboard instruments built into this big half-sphere. Willard was contacted by this very mysterious woman. She's aware that they're both interested in the UFO topic and doing this sort of performative art that is supposed to be communicating with UFOs, non-human intelligence. And so she basically... sets up a performance. I truly feel like she's the missing link to so many of these stories that have happened. She's either literally the most important figure in all of ufology, where she's like just, I don't think she's crazy. And this is where Jacques Vallée comes into the story. Speaker 5 (1:16) Basically, Speaker 6 (1:16) she gives very Speaker 5 (1:17) specific sort of rules Speaker 6 (1:19) about this recording, certain, you know, frequency ranges that should be included, other very weird secretive things. The tape has to be essentially given to her immediately. It can't be shared with anyone. And after the tape was given to her, she basically disappeared from their lives. So the Speaker 5 (1:41) idea is it is not supposed to exist, but they made a secret recording. You've heard the recording. Speaker 6 (1:48) Yeah, and it's in the film. Speaker 5 (1:50) You did actually end up talking to her, right? Speaker 6 (1:53) Yes. Speaker 5 (1:55) And... Speaker 5 (2:01) last time we talked at length about this Puharich documentary you have coming out, which many people are frustrated in my comments that it's not out and they can't watch it. But unbeknownst to me, you have this whole other documentary and insane story that you've covered in depth as well. So I'm looking forward to getting into that, you know, touching back on any Puharich territory and related top, whatever, man, I'm just, I know this is gonna be fantastic. Speaker 6 (2:28) Yeah. Thank you. That's very nice of you to say. For sure. And of course, good to be back. Love talking to you. Speaker 5 (2:34) Yeah, man. Yeah. So, um. Where do you want to start? Do you want to start with the other story or was there anything on your mind with the Puharik conversation you wanted to touch back on? Speaker 6 (2:47) I mean, there's a lot probably to touch back on, but coincidentally, like five minutes before we clicked start on this, this friend of mine in France I work with who is connected to this new film, The Aether Ship, which we can talk about, but he sent me this link about John Lilly and The Nine. Wow. It's funny because, I mean, of course we know John Lilly. guy did the experiments with communication with dolphins and went kind of far off, some might say, in his later years, not unlike Buharich, and he got super into, you know, communication with non-human intelligence and so forth. But I had never heard of this, like, all the years, as you know, and people might know from the other episode I've spent with the Buharich stuff. I haven't even looked at it, quite honestly. You just sent me the link. So, I Speaker 5 (3:38) mean... Well, yeah, let's just do, let's do a little preliminary... lap around this then because that's very interesting and just the the tale of the nine in and of itself bears repeating because it is so strange and potentially so consequential in terms of actual documented contact with alien intelligences non-human intelligences uh godly intelligences i don't really know what or complete delulu who knows um Speaker 6 (4:10) Well, you know what I should say? I don't want to cut off your train of thought, but that's something we could talk about right now is that I, I don't know if I, I think I talked about this the first time, you know, I started this page, I guess you could call it a website, the Cosmic Clock. Speaker 5 (4:25) And Speaker 6 (4:25) it's a YouTube channel now, Substack, but I'm going to start this podcast that I'm calling The Nine Tapes. Speaker 3 (4:34) And Speaker 6 (4:34) basically what that is, is, you know, I'm sitting on all these recordings of the nine channeling sessions. I mean, like literally hundreds of hours of stuff. So obviously that's impossible to put into a film. And so, you know, what do you do with this? So I've been kind of thinking about this for a long time and finally just kind of. went for it and I want to start this podcast. Well, I'm going to, I already am working on it, but it's going to be basically just kind of like the raw recordings of a lot of these sessions and a little lead up in context to the date when it was recorded, maybe what was going on at the time, but just kind of playing these raw recordings because no one's ever heard these. I mean, outside of the Faraday cage where they were recorded. I mean, literally no one on the planet has heard them. And so the big question I think the podcast can, I want to try to answer is like, you just said, what really is it? You know, is it this non-human intelligence? Is it something else? Is it manipulation? I mean, it's going to get into all that. And that's the newest thing I'm trying to tackle right now outside of everything else. Yeah, Speaker 5 (5:48) that's really exciting. And I really look forward to hearing the fruits. of the labor of your deep dive into this stuff, because I could see it going one of two ways. One, it's going to be absolutely revelatory. And we're going to learn all kinds of really interesting things about what Puharich and all these people thought that they were doing, what they thought they were contacting, what they were interested in, whether or not this information really was accurate. If they were trying to seek information that can be verified, like that would be insane. If we can verify that there's real information that was coming from these beings through these channeling sessions. But it could also be. this thing where I just made this joke on another podcast I did where if you just were a time traveler or you had never listened to another podcast in this weird milieu in your life and you're just hearing all of this shit in these references and you're like i have no idea what these people are talking it could be like that too right like where you just where you're just you're just orthogonally entering a moment in a very strange life that was interested in very strange things And then you have no idea what they're talking about. But in your experience listening to these channeling sessions, how much of it makes sense versus is something like that? And sorry to walk this back, but maybe before you answer this question, we should just briefly reintroduce people to the concept of the nine Lukuhariches, what he was doing, all of that stuff, because it is just so mind-bogglingly strange and interesting. Speaker 6 (7:29) Well, Andrea Puharich was a psychic researcher, doctor, parapsychologist who started looking into ESP and all that stuff back in the early 50s. Actually, the late 40s, technically. But I made a film about him, which is coming out. And he's very fascinating in this world because he had his toe in literally everything you could possibly imagine from, you know. MKUltra mind control stuff to UFO research to the channeling stuff to magic mushrooms to neuro weaponry and Havana syndrome stuff. I mean, you know, he was really just extraordinary and I was interested in him. I mean, even though, of course, I'm interested in this topic, like I just found him so fascinating as just a person with. the life he had. I mean, I could have no interest in any of this stuff and still just want to research this guy because of everything he did. Speaker 6 (8:33) So that's who he was. But he got very involved in channeling the Nine, which were basically this alleged group of non-human intelligences who came through certain people while they were in a trance state. So there's some stories that people just fall into trance. The first time that the Nine came through was through this Indian doctor, Dr. Vinod was his name. Buhar at his lab in Maine in 1952. But most times he would, you know, hypnotize somebody or do whatever he needed to do to get them into a trance state and the nine would come through. And so he did this for starting in the 50s, pretty much through his death in the 90s. And all that time he recorded these sessions with various psychics and, pardon me, other individuals who could bring through the nine. And what I found most interesting is that, you know, it wasn't like everyone could do this. This is something I learned because in the film, we, one of the main interviews is this amazing woman, um, who was his assistant for many, many years. And, you know, she told the story like she really wanted to. be in a session and she wanted to bring through the nine she wanted to channel and she just she couldn't do it you know and as badly as she wanted to she just tells a story about how she tried many times with him to get into that state to reach the proper brainwave state and everything she just couldn't do it and she just said you know some people just can't can't go there and for whatever reason she doesn't know why she just couldn't get to that place so that was interesting to me because there's this you know, a lot of speculation of it's all fake or it's all, you know, implanted and this and that. And I think that's interesting because certain people were the complete opposite. They were like amazing channels. And on a lot of the tapes, I get into it in our first chat, but there's this one woman who he worked with a lot doing the channelings. And she was, you know, on a lot of the tapes, like 85 % of them, she's on there. You know, there's stories of her, like he was a doctor, Puharich, you know, a real medical doctor, went to Northwestern Medical School, but he would be on standby with like actual, on alert, you know, medically because she would get into such a state that her body would just shut down, you know? And if you hear this a lot with channeling stuff, another one of the psychics he works with, that happened to her as well, but this is documented. It just raises that question. Okay. So, so the channeling's fake, the needing to revive someone because they're in their blood level because of the state they're in, that's fake. You know, it just, there's too many of those things that just make you question, okay, something. is clearly going on. I think the big question is what is it? But there's this multiple stories of, again, these two specific psychics who worked with him over the years who would just be very affected by these sessions so much so that they actually left working with him. They couldn't sort of take it after many years. I remember that, yeah. Speaker 5 (12:04) Yeah, that's a good setup. And I feel like every time this topic comes up, I have to give my slight nuance just for my own, I don't know, intellectual epistemic comfort, because it's one of those topics I'm really conflicted about. Because while I do find it extremely fascinating, I'm also extremely skeptical of a certain kind of channeling, right? Like the performative, like, we are. Speaker 4 (12:32) Here, we Speaker 5 (12:33) are here to give you information from the Galactic Council. We are here to assist in your species evolution, you know, like that kind of stuff. It really gives me the ick. And yet, you know, I think I probably said something very similar the first time we talked. You look throughout antiquity, the Oracle of Delphi, like all of these oracles all over, you know, all over the ancient world. This was something that they took extremely seriously and with like the utmost level, had like the utmost level of respect for all of this stuff. And it does seem like there is a there. I don't know why I keep using this phrase that they're there. I actually, side note, I just saw a guy saying like, is this an example of like a... programming or something like that that everybody in the UFO realm is saying they're there but now I say it anyway I'm going to try not to say it now anyway yeah I just I have these weird I'm like open minded to it yet I'm also very skeptical of it at the same time but with something like what Puharich was doing it didn't it doesn't from what I've seen at least it doesn't strike me as that kind of very like cold Speaker 5 (13:50) blabbermouthed, you know, cold reading, I mean, blabbermouthed kind of nonsense performative channeling. It really does seem like these people are in a deep state of consciousness where at the very least their subconscious mind has completely taken over in a very interesting kind of way. So now with that setup, In all of the recordings of the nine of these beings coming through that they also describe as like, I just find this so fascinating too, that they also describe as like potentially Egyptian deities at one point, right? Like in all of your going through this catalog. How much of it makes some level of sense where you really can ascertain what's going on versus it just is like almost impossible to even know where the hell he was going. Because some of Puharich's stuff is like, you know, you've shown me some stuff about the, you know, the weird kind of cosmic time, cosmic clock stuff that it's almost just like I have no idea what he's predicating any of this stuff on. So yeah, how does it all strike you and what have you found so far? Speaker 6 (15:04) Well, I think I said this already, and I apologize if I'm repeating myself, but... On the tapes, of which there are many, There seems to be sort of, and again, I don't know if this was planned or done for a reason, but there seems to be many tapes. Speaker 6 (15:27) that are your typical, well, first of all, none of them are anything like the performative stuff that you did earlier. None of it's like that, which is interesting. It's strange, of course, but it's not like that. It's strange in its own way, but a lot of the tapes are sort of your typical, I don't know how else to describe it, but sort of new age lingo sort of channeling stuff, you know? Um, Speaker 6 (15:58) A lot of. Speaker 6 (16:00) We're, you know. space brothers if you will type of type of channeling stuff but then there's a lot of tapes that are like the opposite and are very very serious sounding almost the tone in the voice is almost different and those tapes are interesting because those are the ones that seem to me like more of a remote viewing sort of situation because clearly he's asking specific questions looking for specific answers so that raises the bigger question of And I know a lot of people speculate this. There's all sorts of people online who talk about this stuff. But this idea that the nine was just sort of this. you know, way to bring people in to then use them as sort of remote viewing channels. Speaker 5 (16:54) You Speaker 6 (16:55) know, I've often said at the time. If you were somebody, I'm not saying this is true, but if you were Puharj and you were working for the CIA doing remote viewing and you want a young person to come in and do this, a way to get them to do that is to say, hey, we've got this channeling circle, the nine space entities, this and that. You're not going to say, hey, I work for the CIA. Come do channeling for me. Speaker 5 (17:25) Come Speaker 6 (17:26) do remote viewing for me. I don't believe this per se. A lot of people believe that the nine, again, were just this way to get people in to then be subjects to remote view, which is interesting because it was all happening at the exact time of the SRI remote viewing. And Speaker 5 (17:47) potentially before, right? Way before, yeah. Speaker 5 (18:15) SRI, Hal Puthoff, Russell Targ, they start this study, this effort that's originally, I think, the CIA is behind. And then it goes through this whole alphabet soup of different agencies. You know, you get Ingo Swann. He comes in. Ingo Swann invents, essentially, the protocols around remote viewing. He is the original remote viewer. etc, etc, etc. But it seems like that's really not the case anymore. It really seems like Puharich and his people are the ones who are doing remote viewing. They're doing it probably at the behest of government agencies. They're literally trying to look... There's one story you told me where he's trying to look in the mind of some general who's coming to consult with them. All kinds of other stuff, right? So it seems like... That's the case. And then even further crazy part is that, again, Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ, these physicists, actually went to Ossining where Kuharich's home was and were working with him, and they didn't really want to admit it. You said like Hal Puthoff on camera was like, didn't want to admit that, right? Speaker 6 (19:34) Yeah. Well, to the first point, I mean, just looking at... But SRI completely aside, you know, back in the 50s at his lab in Maine, the Roundtable Foundation, he was basically doing what would be considered remote viewing before, I guess, that term was coined. I mean, there's just no question that they were experimenting with this idea of projecting your consciousness and your mind to see things, bring back information. That was 52, 53. Speaker 5 (20:08) Wow. Speaker 6 (20:10) He was doing that just in general way, way early. And with the SRI thing, you know, I, it's not, I have no, um, Speaker 6 (20:19) reason to go after SRI or anything. It's just a simple fact that I just think that most people don't realize that it was Puharich who basically set up that whole program. Speaker 3 (20:29) I mean, it Speaker 6 (20:30) was before Ingo Smahn and all of that. And so I think, I mean, the story that I heard is that, pardon me, Hal and Russell Targ were They just thought Puharj was too far out and didn't want to associate with him. And so they don't like to kind of bring him into this classic story we all know of, you know, SRI, the remote viewing program and all that. But what's interesting is Russell Targ was good friends with Puharj in the 60s, even before SRI. What were you laughing at something? I Speaker 5 (21:10) was laughing because it's just like the guys who are responsible for inventing psychic spying and are also known to be, you know, into all of these different exotic questions around everything from borderline fantastical physics to psychic stuff to UFOs. he's too far out for them. Like, that's just a funny, that's just a funny thing to sort of. Speaker 6 (21:40) Well, the reason is, and this is another interesting point, is, Speaker 6 (21:45) At that time, and this is a crazy theory of mine that may, you know, be proven true someday. You Speaker 5 (21:52) know, that magical moment in a conversation where two ideas suddenly connect. You have this micro epiphany. You think to yourself, I need to remember this. And then, of course, 10 minutes later, it's gone. Particularly when we're dealing with the esoteric rabbit holes we frequent on this channel. That is where our sponsor. Plod comes in. It's an AI companion that turns spoken thoughts and conversations into searchable notes so that you'll never miss anything. During an episode prep session or an episode itself, I can capture ideas aloud, highlight important moments, get a transcript, a summary, and action items. Then I can ask my Plod Note Pro something like, wait, who is that astronaut connected to UFOs again? And it will pull the answer directly from the recording with references so I can revisit the source. The Plod desktop app can also capture conversations, keeping them alongside your in-person notes. Obviously, always get consent before you record someone. And if you're worried about privacy, Plod does not use your content to train AI without your express consent. Keep the idea. Do not lose yourself down the rabbit hole, whatever it may be. I seriously feel so much more organized thanks to Plod. Try it for yourself, my friends, but do follow the link in the description or in the pinned comment. And be sure to use code THIRDI, all one word, and get 20 % off. It is their best deal of the year. Thank you, Plod. Speaker 6 (23:16) Well, the reason is, and this is another interesting point, is... Speaker 6 (23:20) At that time, and this is a crazy theory of mine that may, you know, be proven true someday. At that exact time period that SRI has started, the remote viewing program is happening. Speaker 6 (23:36) Puharich releases his book, Uri. It's called Uri, a journal into the investigation of Uri Geller or something. And if people, if you're not familiar with that book, it's just, it literally reads like a science fiction book where the premise is essentially Puharich hears about Geller. He goes to Israel. He meets him. He tests him. which is all, you know, true. He was the first person to go there and bring him back to the U.S. But while he's in Israel, what happens? Uri Geller channels something called The Nine. Speaker 6 (24:14) And Puharich is, you know, shocked by this. They record these sessions. And the whole book then kind of goes into this crazy story of how the Nine are sort of leading them around to different places in the world. There's UFOs involved. Apparently Geller goes on a UFO at one point. I mean, it's just, it's a Speaker 5 (24:36) very Speaker 6 (24:37) far out book that again... reads like science fiction but is supposed to be like a real account of his experiences with iri geller that comes out exactly like month months you know uh during before um i'm sorry right when sri is starting and It's just strange. And my theory is that, and I've heard this as well from, I don't remember from who, but there was this sort of effort to write this guy off like he was sort of a quack, you know, and say, hey, have you heard of this guy's book? Have you read his book? How crazy is this? You know, do something very real and specific to make the attention just completely go away from him. Because at that time, You know, and this is what's so confusing about Puharich and why I still feel like I've never solved him after all this time is because, you know, right at the time, you know, it's SRI starting, he writes this crazy book, but he's still doing like very, very advanced research. He still has a company. It ends around this time, but he has this company doing this hearing research with deaf patients. So it's just like so many things. But at that exact time, just the fact that that book comes out right around the time this is all happening, I've just found very, very strange. And Geller tried to distance himself from this book because of how Speaker 5 (26:05) sort Speaker 6 (26:06) of far out it is. And funny enough, just this morning, Uri Geller posted on X a video of him talking about Puharich and the Nine and his book and everything. Wow. Speaker 5 (26:18) Yeah, he's been occasionally posting. Some pretty I mean, he I mean, he always has right. Some pretty sensational stuff. But, you know, saying like I was shown he said he's been shown alien bodies in some secret underground facility and shows pictures that are allegedly of that. Speaker 5 (26:39) But of course, everybody knows he's a showman. Everyone knows he's controversial. Everyone knows he's, you know, been proven to be a charlatan in various ways. Yet it also there are open questions, I think, about his legitimacy in terms of some of his abilities. Like it's really hard to read Phenomena by Annie Jacobson and not come away with it either being like. okay, maybe both things can be true at once. Maybe he can be, you know, a showman and an agent and a magician, a stage magician, and really be doing some actual psychical shit and really think that he is in touch with some other higher and like they're not mutually exclusive. I don't know what to think. I'm skeptical, whatever, but it's, it's, it's still interesting. So what did, what did he say about the nine in, in this, in this post? Speaker 6 (27:30) Um, basically, So he's talking a lot about... Everything going on in the news with AI. And he's explaining how, you know, it's a very long post. I was looking like right before we came on here, but he's essentially trying to tie in this fact that the channeling that he was doing with Buharich in 73, it was somehow an already existing AI entity that they were communicating with. And it's interesting because if you read that book, and again, it goes. back to the science fiction element to it like when Geller would go in a trance and channel it was very robotic sounding like synthetic robotic sounding voice when he would do it and so that you'll have to look at it but he's kind of trying to connect these two things which You know, it might be. Speaker 6 (28:29) I wanted to make a point, though. Again, I'm not throwing these SRI guys under the bus at all. I just think it's a fact. People don't know. But I actually had lunch with Russell Tarr years ago. That was like five, six years ago, maybe even longer. But it was so weird. And I've told this story many times to various people. But he did this sort of like mind experiment, I guess, with me. And we were just sitting in this restaurant. And he... Well, how did it go down? Basically, you know, of course, we're talking about all this kind of stuff, but he was like, okay, I have something in my pocket and I'm touching it. It's in my pocket. And try to think about what it is and just draw on this piece of paper, like what comes to your mind, what you think I'm holding in my pocket. And this is very similar to a lot of those experiments at SRI that they did. But it was so weird because, you know, First of all, you just immediately think, okay, it's a pocket. It's obviously something small. What do people usually have in their pocket? You know, a phone, keys, a wallet or something, right? But for whatever reason, I didn't draw any of those things. And I drew, I'll never forget, I drew a circle with lines coming out the bottom of it, right? Speaker 5 (29:54) Dude, what's weird is when you started saying this, I imagined like a little circular like ball or something, but continue. Speaker 6 (30:01) This honestly, this was really strange. I'm skeptical. I'm obviously open minded. I mean, I made this, you know, I've studied all this stuff and done the film, but like I'm still pretty skeptical. But I drew this circle with lines coming out the bottom of it. And, you know, he said, OK, do you have it? And and I said, yes. And out of his pocket, he pulls out this. I don't even know what it was. It was kind of like a little trinket or something, Speaker 3 (30:27) but Speaker 6 (30:28) it was literally a. Speaker 6 (30:31) circular piece of glass. with wooden lines coming out the bottom of it Speaker 3 (30:38) that Speaker 6 (30:38) was sort of like, you know, sort of plastered in this little square. But essentially it was literally a glass circle with lines coming out of it. It was like a little trinket. Speaker 4 (30:50) And Speaker 6 (30:50) it was very weird. And yeah, I'll never forget. And I just was, I was just shocked. And he was like. why did you think of that why did you draw that i just i have no idea and he's like yeah because i put that in your head that's why you drew that and it's it's strange to think back about because and this is something geller could apparently do and others at that time like this uh implanting of thoughts psychically but i it was just i had no i couldn't answer him i just i have no and he said yeah you don't know why you drew it because i for a moment in time to kind of took you over and put it in there. And right. That was weird. That's the only time I ever met him. Speaker 5 (31:32) Yeah. And that Speaker 6 (31:33) happened. Speaker 5 (31:33) And that is really interesting because there are these things you hear about with remote viewing, right? Where, where one of the things they often talk about is, um, like psychic psychic overlay right where where you can be someone else can be thinking of something and it can sort of influence or contaminate your own remote viewing um so an instance of this would be something like um you and i are both trying to remote view this this target right and like let's say the target is a mountain range but I, for whatever reason, get a sense of water and I start drawing water. And then you and I both get water for some reason. One of the theories behind that is you tapped into my mind or you tapped into the same thing I did rather than the target. And that's the problem with remote viewing is you're never sure what direction things are going in. And this gets into these big metaphysical conversations about... how remote viewing is even possible, right? Like one of the theories is it's information traveling backwards from the future at a time that you will know the information, right? So like if I, like... Like the moment that I reveal that picture of the target to you, maybe that information is retrocausally moving backward in time. And that's what you're doing. Or it's no mind consciousness really does have this ability to gather disembodied information. Right. Because, you know, holographic universe principle or non locality or whatever it is. Right. Like. And it's the same thing with the thing that happened with you and Targ. You don't know if that was your mind viewing the target or his mind influencing you to have the right answer, right? Like, this is why Sai is such a weird ball of yarn to try to detangle because it does seem like there's something there, but you can never pin down a mechanism. You can never have even close to 100 % accuracy. It's just, it's always like this. And I also want to say, I'm not trying to throw... Russell Targer, Hal Puthoff under the rug either. I think they're two of the most fascinating living people. And in a lot of ways, I think they're absolute treasures. And I would love to talk to those guys. I just think it's unbelievably fascinating that. Speaker 6 (33:57) And Speaker 5 (33:57) essentially, this stuff was going on long before they were doing it, long before there were these protocols. And it was even going on in somewhat of a limited, at least, governmental capacity, like intelligence agency capacity. So, yeah, that was my only point, really. Speaker 6 (34:15) Yeah. No, it's... I just will never forget it. I think that was the only instance in my whole life up to this point that I actually... had like a psychic experience that I just genuinely could not explain. And Speaker 5 (34:30) it was very Speaker 6 (34:30) strange. And yeah, I think about it every so often and just like, wow, it was very Speaker 5 (34:36) fascinating. Yeah. But the thing is too, like pre, Speaker 6 (34:38) I'm sorry, pre SRI. Speaker 6 (34:43) Targ knew Kihart very well in like the 60s, like mid-60s. And they would hang out in New York City and stuff. So they were like long, long-time friends. So again, I just think that he's a part of all of that. And he often just kind of gets overlooked because that story is so known. There's so many books and movies and stuff about it. Speaker 5 (35:10) Totally. There are so many hidden threads to this story. Like even even the public facing version of the story we have is unbelievably mind blowing. Like the story that again, if you read Phenomena by Annie Jacobson, and she does this incredible job of going through the history of all of these psychic spy programs and interest in ESP and, you know, even touches on the weird parapsychology stuff the Nazis were doing and how that flows into the United States. slowly. It's an insane story. But I think there's even more insane dimensions of it. And I think you're starting to uncover some of those dimensions with the research that you're doing. But at the very beginning of this conversation, you brought up Lily. So Lily also