The Man Who Led Design at Zomato, Cleartrip & Blinkit

The Yellow Couch Series

In this episode of The Yellow Couch Series, Joy Banerjee, VP of Product Design at Blinkit, reflects on his thirty-year journey from running a design studio to leading

Key takeaways

• Blinkit manages a massive scale, processing between 38 to 43 lakh orders on high-traffic days.
• Joy Banerjee advocates for a shift in leadership from being a decision-maker to acting as a 'steward' who guides teams.

Main topics

• Career evolution in design
• Design leadership and stewardship

Notable quotes

Metrics only tell you what happened. They will not tell you how did the person feel when that happened.

Conclusion

The episode offers a profound look at how design must balance technolo

Transcript preview

Speaker 5 (0:00) How many orders does Blinkit get? Speaker 6 (0:02) 38 lakh orders. 38 lakh orders on a day. But then again, metrics only tell you what happened. They will not tell you how did the person feel when that happened and what happened later on. Who do you look up to? His name is Pohay Sudhiyara. I think he's the best graphic designer in the world. He knows more about India than we Indians do. He would use everything, you know, he'd use the spine of the book as table of contents. You know, the folding of the paper to show all kinds of Speaker 4 (0:34) imagery. Speaker 6 (0:35) He is so playful in his Speaker 4 (0:37) work. So at Blinkit, how do you define that that problem is worth solving because it's pan India. One of the first questions when I came to Blinkit, I was asking the CEO, do Speaker 6 (0:47) these universities, is there a lot of difference? He said, not really. Speaker 6 (1:03) Well, pleasure to have you. Thank you. What a lovely studio. Speaker 5 (1:08) Joy, it is an absolute joy to have you Speaker 6 (1:11) here. It's interesting because Speaker 5 (1:14) you studied design about a kilometer away from here. Speaker 6 (1:19) Yes. Speaker 5 (1:20) And almost feels like it's a circle. Speaker 5 (1:27) Since your days at IDC to now, if you could quickly summarize your journey. Speaker 6 (1:35) Yes, first, thank you so much. Such a beautiful place. And to be looking out and looking at the lake. That's a sight for sore eyes. But yes, it's like, I think around 30 years, Speaker 3 (1:49) 93, Speaker 6 (1:50) 95, I was here. Speaker 6 (1:53) And design has changed so much from there on. Again, I'm one of those, you know, never knew what I'm going to do when I grow up. I think now I'm getting a bit of a sense but mostly drifted into things. So right after IIT, a friend of mine and I just decided let's go to Delhi because there's no design scene there. So we sort of cracked it open. So I mean almost right away we started consulting, we set up a small studio and I mean I don't think we ever intended to make a company or get into technology. Speaker 5 (2:37) So you started a studio right after IDC? Speaker 6 (2:40) Almost within three Speaker 5 (2:41) to Speaker 6 (2:41) four months. Speaker 5 (2:41) And this is around 90s? 95, yeah. This Speaker 6 (2:44) is Speaker 5 (2:44) pre-app store, pre-internet Speaker 6 (2:47) boom. What Speaker 5 (2:48) were you offering as a design service? Speaker 6 (2:50) So the first thing was, there was the time of actually desktop printing. It was pretty big. And you also had CDs and DVDs. So we could build a lot of CD-based programs. So, I don't know if you remember, there were some actually pretty big, I don't quite remember them, but used to sell a lot of these courseware. Speaker 5 (3:15) Rosetta Stone. Those kinds of games that Speaker 6 (3:18) came on and infotainment sort of systems that came on CDs. So we did a lot of that. We also did a lot of print work for companies. Internet was sort of just coming in and people were toying with these platforms. And I remember one of the big companies sold for a grand 500 crore kind of a number. And then suddenly there was this, you know, by 1998, there was a massive boom. So everybody wanted to do it. Platforms, there were tons and tons of startups. So yeah, within, I think, a couple of years, it became a very interesting space. Speaker 5 (3:51) So you were doing digital before digital was a thing. Yes. Like, I remember graduating and not having the courage to really do. my own thing. What gave you guys the courage to say, hey, we're going to do our own studio right off the bat after IDC? Speaker 6 (4:09) It's Speaker 5 (4:10) like, Speaker 6 (4:10) I think both of us were a bit of misfits. Speaker 2 (4:14) I Speaker 6 (4:15) tried working for a company for a couple of months. Again, that was Apple's developer partner or something. And there was a lot of Apple programs. But then, you know, we said, okay. And he was more into filmmaking. So, you know, both from, he also tried his work, working for TV studios and news stations, et cetera, but it sort of didn't kind of work out what we expected as designers and what we have been taught. So he said, okay, there's an opportunity to really build something. So for a few years, I think both of us tried different things, but because we stayed together, we sort of finally said, let's build something. Yeah. Speaker 5 (4:57) And then you ran that for about 21 years? Speaker 6 (5:01) I think more than that, yeah. Speaker 5 (5:02) Wow. 21 years. And that's when you moved to the industry side of things. You were at ClearTrip and then you were at Flipkart. Speaker 6 (5:13) So ClearTrip got acquired by Flipkart. So when I joined, that was already part of Flipkart. The same campus, same everything. And then I moved to Zomato. Speaker 5 (5:24) And Speaker 6 (5:24) then Blinkit. Speaker 5 (5:26) Alright, so before I get into the more detailed questions, there are two cards on the table in front of you and you probably have seen them before. They are Uno reverse cards. And you have two of them. You can use them at any point in this conversation. If you feel you need to reverse the question back to me. Okay. So feel free to use them or not use them. So yeah, that's it. I'm going to now get you into a segment called Confession Room. Wow. So consulting, then ClearTrip, then Zomato, Blinkit. What changed in you across that journey? Speaker 6 (6:18) I think now I tolerate things a bit more. I wasn't the best of the guys when I was running my own ship. I was like, I had this band of whatever quality or excellence and it was not very nice working with me. That's what I'm told. But when you get into a larger team set up like this, then you have to work with a lot of people. Then you realize that, you know, just because you said something it'll not get done and yeah you have to start working with teams more than anything I think I've started having a slightly longer term view of people in my team much longer term view of because I'm into now very large scale products which also means that I have to think a little differently when you're running your own bit and again, services, products, the ownership is a little shallow for you because after all, it's somebody else's product. So you're at an Speaker 5 (7:22) arm's length. Speaker 6 (7:23) Yeah, you're a little there. Although we did run, I mean, I think one of the programs or projects we ran for 11 years, there's another one, seven, we still have very long-term clients. So I could get a sense of exactly how things were and it could work strategically in terms of, but once you get into a company like this, then you're working on one product or one line of business. When you Speaker 5 (7:47) say you started to take a long-term view of people, what do Speaker 6 (7:52) you mean by that? So it's like this, everybody kind of goes through cycles. So initially when people come in, there's Speaker 5 (8:01) a Speaker 6 (8:01) lot of enthusiasm, there's a lot of need to learn. And then at some point, I think it's just the way the work is. you know, the definition of work, the way we come to work. It's somewhere your thing flags and then it's your job to bring that motivation back. So get Speaker 5 (8:18) people through those cycles? Through Speaker 6 (8:19) cycles, yes. If you just saw them only at the lowest, then I think the perception, and I think that's kind of what happens many times in companies, is that you go through those annuals, you know, appraisal. Now, if your last three months have been really bad, then you've had it. So, but I think a long-term view kind of sets you where they are. Secondly, I think everybody has certain skills. Now we want our designers to be everything nowadays. But I think some people have very special, specific skills and it's very important to give them that space where they can flower. And I don't believe that everybody has to be a generalist. There could be a lot of specialists. In fact, design is, I mean, as a person, you're a journalist, but your job is very of a specialist. So I think giving that space is also important. I think what companies do is that we sometimes, especially very large ones, package or slot people into a certain mold. It's important to break those, especially for a design team. What was the biggest adjustment for you? Speaker 5 (9:31) That was hard for you to come to terms with, I guess. Speaker 6 (9:35) One, I was okay, you know, as a, when you're running a service company, you're okay negotiating a lot Speaker 5 (9:41) with Speaker 6 (9:42) external stakeholders. I never had to negotiate so much with internal stakeholders. Speaker 5 (9:48) So the Speaker 6 (9:49) negotiation never ends. Never ends. Yeah. It continues. And especially I thought design meant you know, being innovative, being creative. So when I went into say ClearTrip, now that's a fairly corporatized structure. Everything runs on a structure, plans, you know, you have these three month plans, etc. So I thought like when I get my teams to work on something new and ingenuous, they'll all be excited. And they said, sorry, if this is not shipping, I'm not going to be working on it. Speaker 5 (10:21) So you had less Speaker 6 (10:22) freedom? Well, I didn't quite care. I still got a few guys to, you know, once in a while work with me, happy or unhappy. But I'm very happy to report that they all ended up doing very well later. So a lot of them got into Google, Microsoft, because I thought the process that we're trying to follow in terms of innovation going back, because again, I think sometimes in larger corporates, you just get slotted as a service org. So you're working with the PM or engineering on a very, you know, that PRD is what defines. And for me, it was like, what's the point of a PRD? Let's just think of a problem first. And I used to do a lot of research, like, you know, design thinking goes, you know, we start with the what if. Good thing for me was I already had a lot of travel background. So I consulted for e-bookers, one of the first travel companies. Honestly, I thought these guys didn't have so much depth in travel. Like ClearTrip had, but when Flipkart sort of came in, they had a very different idea. They were a commerce company, so they possibly saw it as a extension of that, you know, capture the market. They were not wrong, but I think still travel is different. Travel is not same as selling products. Speaker 5 (11:45) So you're saying you obviously had More ownership when you moved into the industry. Just as much negotiation. Speaker 6 (11:55) Lot of negotiation. And then you're doing it two ways. One is to the leadership team, then with your team. Your own team was more painful because you always believe that designers would be like excited to do Speaker 5 (12:08) it. Speaker 6 (12:08) More constraints in some way. Yeah, more constraints. But Speaker 5 (12:11) would it be fair to say you felt your work was making a bigger impact because you could see? it actually making it to go live? That Speaker 6 (12:19) actually was my biggest motivation is to really see things at scale, Speaker 5 (12:25) frankly. Speaker 6 (12:26) And luckily I moved from a scale to a larger to a really, really big scale. So the scale is Speaker 5 (12:34) very interesting. So on a daily basis, speaking of scale, Joy. How many orders does Blinkit process on any given day? Speaker 6 (12:43) Right now, I think it's doing 38 lakh orders. 38 Speaker 5 (12:47) lakh Speaker 6 (12:47) orders on a day? On a day. And on high traffic days? So it goes like that, some 38 to 43. 43 lakh? It can probably come down to something like 37. Goes up to 40 to 43 on weekends. Wow. Speaker 5 (13:02) And that scale keeps moving every month. So to summarize, what's the one part of your role? that you really love right now and one that you really hate. I mean, it's a big word. It's, Speaker 6 (13:15) it's both to do with people. Speaker 6 (13:19) I love having a very young, nice, very creative team. In fact, the most pleasurable part of my day is when we are thinking, you know, brainstorming. That's like really wonderful. And then again, the most painful part is also trying to negotiate. So people tend Speaker 5 (13:39) to fall on both sides of that answer, right? Well said. Speaker 6 (13:44) Yes. Who do you look up to Speaker 5 (13:46) in the design field or the creative fields as like one person who's your idol? Speaker 6 (13:54) So this is why separate work from my passion. Speaker 5 (13:57) Okay. Speaker 6 (13:58) So I am a student of design per se. So I've been looking at design from 1940s or even before that from Bauhaus, so entire modern era of design. There's a lot of influence of Western, you know, thought process, minimalism and all those things into our design, our design schools, NID, IDC, they all who are sort of... Speaker 5 (14:24) Yeah, were Bauhaus philosophy. Speaker 6 (14:26) Ulm, I think our professor who set up was at Ulm. But I've been completely gobsmacked when I looked at Japan, when I looked at Middle East. In fact, in the entire architecture that we see in the world today, so all, a lot of it comes from the Islamic golden age. Right. So there are these designers, there's one called Homa Delvare, fantastic, most beautiful designs you can think of. And there, you know, they don't do these anthropomorphic forms. They use text. or as symbols. So the Kufik script she'll use for designing everything. So Speaker 5 (15:13) Zaha Hadid type of, is that lineage? Speaker 6 (15:18) There's a whole lineage of these designers who come from Tehran and Iraq and an entire Turkey. So a lot of Byzantine influence. Speaker 6 (15:30) In fact, most temples, churches, they all follow very similar fractal geometry that runs through even India. It's just that they are more on an abstract form because they cannot have human forms. So their cosmology is different. But going back to your question, when I was in college, my professor, Kirti Trivedi, his guru used to come to India and do guest lectures. His name is Kohei Sugihara. He's Japanese. He's Japanese and must be very old now. But I think he's the best graphic designer in the world. The amount of work that he has done, I was trying to calculate, I think he was publishing something every day of his life. And very different is the way, see Western systems are rational systems, right? They're very physical. The grids are straight lines and there's a gap between, like the stuff that you were talking about, you know. Eastern grids are dynamic. They have hierarchies. Everything has a meaning. And if you started studying Sugiyara, although most of it is in Japanese, but it's absolutely crazy the amount of work that he has done. And he would use... Speaker 5 (16:55) Did Speaker 6 (16:55) you get a chance Speaker 5 (16:55) to meet him? Speaker 6 (16:56) Oh, yes. Yeah, that's why. And he knows more about India than we Indians do. He would use everything, you know. He would take a book, the spine of a book, because the Japanese script is such. Speaker 5 (17:09) He'd Speaker 6 (17:10) use the spine of the book as table of contents. So that when they stack like this, you take it out, you know what you're reading. He would use the folding of the paper to show all kinds of imagery. So if it's something on Cosmos, he'll have the entire Milky Way on one side. So he's so playful in his work. And I think he's more of a monk and a philosopher and many such designers. Amazing. Speaker 5 (17:39) Yeah. That's... Well, I've never heard of him and I will definitely look him up. Sounds fascinating. The related question, is there a design benchmark in terms of experience today that you think is, well, that's really an exemplar for me? Now whether that's digital, physical, but if you had to pick a brand, an organization or a product that's really like a benchmark for you. Speaker 6 (18:12) There's so many, but I'll start with the most common ones. Say, for example, Apple. Apple, Johnny Ive, Speaker 5 (18:22) till Speaker 6 (18:23) the time he was there. Again, see, it doesn't start with Apple. It starts with... Xerox Park Alto, it starts with Dieter Rams. You know, those are the products which are, but Speaker 2 (18:33) then Speaker 6 (18:34) they're doing a good job of bringing that. What is very significant of Apple is something very different that I don't think people quite understand or know of. Anybody who would have used a Macintosh, those little ones, it always started with a smiley. Speaker 6 (18:54) It was because of the way our relationship machine has changed. It's trying to add some warmth in there, right? Yes. So these guys asked one simple question. It's as if machines or these computers are so smart, why do we have to learn them, right? And why can't they learn us? And today, that work from 1980s is now showing up. after 40 years. So that vision, that smiley, I think that makes sense. Even the hello, right? That's why there was a hello because it wanted to have you that warm, friendly relationship with the machine. Speaker 5 (19:30) Fantastic. So you're saying that for you is an interesting benchmark of how to create that deeper connection between humans and technology. Speaker 6 (19:37) It was a big change in the relationship because if you went back before that, So Speaker 5 (19:43) that is the beginning of that Speaker 6 (19:45) connection. Speaker 5 (19:46) Before Speaker 6 (19:47) that, it was like machines were... We Speaker 5 (19:49) had to