Episode 585: Perimenopause, Motherhood & the Art of Saying No
The Whinypaluza Podcast
Host Rebecca Greene interviews novelist Kristin Bair about her fourth novel, 'Clementine Crane Prefers Not To.' The conversation explores th
Key takeaways
- Kristin Bair's novel uses a hot flash as a literal and metaphorical trigger for female rebellion.
- The 'mental load' is defined as the invisible labor of managing family schedules, appointments, and emotional connections.
Main topics
- Perimenopause and menopause
- The invisible mental load
Notable quotes
I would prefer not to.
Conclusion
A deeply relatable and humorous look at reclaiming agency amidst the o
Transcript preview
Speaker 2 (0:00) Hello everyone, this is Rebecca Green for the Whiny Palooza podcast and I just told Kristen I'm like a kid in a candy store. I've been so excited for this hour to come to get to interview the amazing Kristen Baer. Kristen, thank you so much for being here with me today. Speaker 3 (0:16) Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. I Speaker 2 (0:20) get to share her with the world. I want to share this woman with everyone and you're going to find out why, but first let me introduce her. Kristen Baer writes fiercely and hilariously, which I know because I laughed hysterically, about women navigating family, ambition, and identity. Her fourth novel, Clementine Crane Prefers Not To, follows a woman radicalized by her very first hot flash of perimenopause. Proof that revolutions can start anywhere. She's also the author of Agatha Ark is Afraid of Everything, which you know is my next read, a People Magazine best new book, The Art of Floating, and Thirsty, along with essays on topics ranging from China to bears. Kristen, you write about everything. I do. Speaker 3 (1:10) Anything and everything. Oh Speaker 2 (1:12) my gosh. Well, and the added bonus of Kristen that I also want to talk about today is she teaches in the MA writing program at Johns Hopkins University and at the Yale Writers Workshop. She earned her MFA in fiction writing from Columbia College, Chicago. She's a native Pittsburgher. She now lives north of Boston, sandwiched generationally and otherwise between her husband, two kids, her aging parents, and whatever pissed off woman is currently living in her head demanding to be rid of me. I was laughing because I had to get up several times because I had to turn the thermostat down because the sweat was pouring down my face and I'm like, I'm going to have a hot flash doing... episode that Speaker 3 (2:05) is perfect perfectly timed hot flash oh Speaker 2 (2:09) my god i'm like please not when i'm interviewing kristin please wait Speaker 3 (2:14) I think it would be the perfect one. Speaker 2 (2:16) Oh my gosh. Okay. So for those of you watching, this is the book that made me hunt down Kristen. So I read Clementine Creighton prefers not to, laughed hysterically, related to everything, shared her with every mom, every mom that I know probably has heard of Kristen. Now I will keep sharing her, posted her everywhere. And my producer said, here's her email. Go email her and have her on your podcast. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm going to talk to her. Speaker 2 (2:53) So yes, I'm fangirling. Speaker 3 (2:55) I love it. It makes me so happy. Speaker 2 (2:58) So we're going to put this in the hands of every woman listening. You need to get a book. But I want to know so many things. Okay. Start at the beginning. What inspired you to start writing? Speaker 3 (3:11) Oh, way back in the beginning. I Speaker 2 (3:13) want Speaker 3 (3:13) to Speaker 2 (3:14) know. Speaker 1 (3:14) I want Speaker 2 (3:14) to Speaker 3 (3:14) know. Speaker 2 (3:15) Yes. Speaker 3 (3:15) Yes. So I'm one of those wackadoodle people who started writing. when I came out of the womb, basically. I waited till I was about seven and Speaker 3 (3:28) The first thing I wrote was a poem called The Hummingbird. And I had never seen a hummingbird in my life. I have three sisters, and every evening in the summer, my parents and my sisters and I, we would play wiffle ball out in the backyard. And my bedroom looked out onto the backyard. And this one evening that I learned I was a poet and a writer, I didn't go outside. And so my mom's calling in the window. She's like, get out here, Kristen, get Speaker 2 (3:58) out here. You're up. Speaker 3 (3:59) I'm like, I am a writer. I am writing a poem. Do not bother me again. Speaker 3 (4:07) And ever since I Speaker 2 (4:09) have written nonstop. You were tiny when you discovered this talent. And Speaker 3 (4:14) I still have that poem. I have to dig it up. I know it's in a box in my attic. I've been thinking about it. Speaker 2 (4:20) It's amazing. Okay. But we have to talk about all the things, but we have to talk about Clementine. Like tell us where, tell us where does she come from and tell us about the inspiration to write her. Speaker 3 (4:34) Yeah. Well, When I hit perimenopause, I had, and I still have actually, and I'm postmenopausal now. I had the worst night flashes. I mean, I was having hot flashes, but like that scene in Clementine Crane, I would wake up at night, literally drowning, like drenched, but only from the head up. Like my pillow would be soaked. My hair, I have a lot of hair. My hair would be soaked. I'd be like heart palpitations shaking. And then I wouldn't be able to go back to sleep. And I was like, Speaker 2 (5:11) I Speaker 3 (5:12) was looking for my next book. Speaker 3 (5:16) And the other piece of this is that when I was in grad school, that's when I read Herman Melville's Bartleby the Scrivener, A Story of Wall Street. And Bartleby's tagline is, I would prefer not to. And when I read that in grad school a million years ago, I knew that someday I was going to use it. I was just carrying it around with me. And so the pairing of those two things and just being pissed off as a woman all the time. And not having anybody understand, like, I thought I was dying from this night flash. I had no idea what perimenopause, I thought I was dying. I told my husband, I was like, you're going to have to say goodbye to me soon. Speaker 2 (5:59) It's nobody warns us. How come nobody warns us? Tell me that story. Why does nobody tell us what's coming? I Speaker 3 (6:06) tell you, I mean, I'm so grateful that there is something of a spotlight if you're paying attention right now in perimenopause and menopause. Speaker 3 (6:15) But most people know nothing. Nothing. And so those things, Herman Melville, Bartleby, I prefer not to, being pissed off at everything anyway. And then these damn night flash, hot flash things. It all came Speaker 2 (6:32) together beautifully. Oh my God, it did. It came together perfectly. I can attest to that. I do have memories of sleeping in my parents' house and the thermostat was at like 58 and I was shaking in my bed and putting on blankets. And I was like, mom, can you turn it off? And she's like, she's walking around in like a light nightgown. And she's like, absolutely not. Do not touch that thermostat. Speaker 3 (7:02) inkling of what was coming. It is a thing and nobody ever talked about it. I mean, I don't even know. My mom was like, I don't think I felt anything. I'm like, I don't believe you. I Speaker 2 (7:13) think you were just Speaker 3 (7:14) too busy and too focused. And I Speaker 2 (7:17) think we're good at blocking things out because like, you know, even labor, like we block things out and our husbands, right? Our husbands don't forget. Speaker 3 (7:26) Nope. Nope. It is. It is. Speaker 3 (7:30) makes me insane. It literally like, yeah, I Speaker 2 (7:33) know. I know. So, so how much of this Clementine is you? Speaker 1 (7:44) You Speaker 3 (7:44) know, I have to ask, there are little bits of me in Clementine. You know, she starts off her journey. She's, you know, she's the director of media for a library. She has three teenagers. She has this husband who is a fairly typical husband in this world. One that you probably want to strangle most of the time. Speaker 3 (8:14) But she becomes somebody new and different, you know, but always herself. So there's a journey for her. And so somewhere nestled in all that is me, of course, because I think I see life that way. Like I learned something and then I grow from it. And there are definite bits of me, like when she starts really standing up and calling women together, you know. That might be me. That might be me. Speaker 2 (8:46) I think, I mean, there's so many favorite moments, but when she like stomped into the doctor's office, she's like collecting women from the waiting room. I'm like, I Speaker 3 (8:57) love this lady. She's like, and she's like, not just like coming in and being like this. She's like, come on, let's go. And she's running away from the receptionist and the doctor. Yeah. Speaker 2 (9:11) She is determined. Speaker 3 (9:12) That woman is determined. Speaker 2 (9:15) Okay. So you used hot flashes to begin the rebellion. So, so tell me about that inspiration. You go from hot flashes to we're going to do a rebellion. Yeah. You know, for, for Clem. Speaker 3 (9:30) It's almost like she'd been living her whole life and putting up with this husband who I think at some point I say somewhere in an interview or something that he really can't find his way out of a paper bag or through one of those rotating doors by himself. He's completely dependent. And that kind of dynamic makes me nuts. And it's always back there churning this patriarchal thing. Speaker 3 (10:01) And I knew that it had to be the trigger for something big. And so. And then her kids, her kids too are completely dependent on her. You know, they're going to, she's going to bring this. She's going to bring that. She's going to take them there. She's going to feed them this. She's going to provide this. It's every like the emotional labor, the physical labor. All of that's been on my mind for a long time. And it just seemed like the perfect jumping off point. Those hot flashes for Speaker 2 (10:32) something much Speaker 3 (10:32) bigger. Speaker 2 (10:34) so much bigger. I mean, she took it to a new level. She had like, I mean, for those of you who I don't need, I don't want to spoil things, spoil things, but you you just have to read this book. It's just such a level. It was incredible. But you know, we have this invisible mental load. Like I'm listening to you talk about the husband and the kids and how dependent they are. And you know, I'm not going to say I'm innocent. Like I think we have created that in our families. So I mean, take us, give us some advice as women. Why are we doing that? And how can we stop? Speaker 3 (11:10) Yes. Well, you know, I don't think, I think created is the wrong word. I think we have inherited it. Speaker 2 (11:19) I like that better. And I think we have permitted it. Yeah. Because we didn't Speaker 3 (11:25) know how to say stop it. Speaker 2 (11:28) No. You know, Speaker 3 (11:30) we really. And we weren't trained to say, stop it. Like, I'm not doing all of this. Speaker 3 (11:40) And so I think the inheritance of this role, the not being taught anything different, and then just allowing it. And then once it starts snowballing, once you're in the middle of it, and you've got a family, and you've got kids, and you've got work, and you've got the world, which is so anti-woman in a variety of ways. Speaker 3 (12:05) you can't like find your way out. You're like, how do I get out of this? I can't do it all. And you know, there's that moment at the end of the first chapter where Clem just. I'm trying not to give anything away, but there's a big ending to that first chapter. And I feel like I got to that point metaphorically. And I think a lot of women are getting to that point, both literally and metaphorically. Speaker 2 (12:32) Well, and I was literally twitching and I am going to tell you guys this. She turns off her phone at some point in the book and my phone is right next to me. Speaker