Dharma and Business (Episode #112)

The Way Out Is In - Plum Village

In this episode of 'The Way Out Is In,' business leader Minh Hung shares her transformative journey from a high-powered corporate executive to a devoted

Key takeaways

True leadership emerges not from power or profit but from mindfulness, compassion, and authentic presence.

Main topics

Integrating Dharma into business leadership
The role of mindfulness in executive decision-making

Notable quotes

"What did I do with my life?" – a pivotal question that led Minh Hung to seek deeper meaning beyond success.

Conclusion

Minh Hung's story demonstrates that business and spirituality are not opposing

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) Welcome, dear friends, to this latest episode of the podcast series, The Way Out Is In. Speaker 2 (0:21) I'm Joe Confino, a leadership coach and a spiritual mentor. Speaker 4 (0:25) And I am Brother Phap Hu, a Zen Buddhist monk, student of Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh in the Plum Village tradition. And Speaker 2 (0:32) today, dear listeners, we're going to explore the integration of the Dharma into business because a lot of people say, ah, the spiritual path, how wonderful to do this at home. But how on earth do we bring this? into the world of livelihood and commerce and business and finance. And this we're going to explore today with a very special guest. Speaker 2 (1:15) Hello everyone, I am Joe Confino. And I am Brother Fab Hu. And Brother, we are sitting with a very honoured guest this morning. So do you want to just introduce her? Speaker 4 (1:27) Yes, today I have a dear friend joining us on the podcast. Her name is Minh Hung. And we met in Plum Village in 2016. But she met Plum Village before that, and I'll let her tell that story. And she has become... A dear mentor of mine, one of the powerhouses in Vietnam, as well as a wonderful Sangha member in our community. And is very, very, very, I would say, in love with the Dharma. Speaker 2 (1:57) So, Hung, you're very welcome. And tell us a little bit about yourself, because one of the things I'm fascinated personally is that you... run 35 businesses in Vietnam, you have 7,000 employees, and you are a great exponent and practitioner in the Plum Village tradition. And as I open this conversation, most people don't think those two can connect, that you have your Dharma at home and then you run your business with an iron fist. So before we go into that, just tell us a little bit about your spiritual journey. Speaker 3 (2:36) Oh, it's actually, it's been a journey. You know, because I was born in a time of war. So I had experience in my childhood. There's a lot of difficulties, but my old memory is the joy, the love. And then when I grew up, I went for graduation in Soviet Union, which is Kiev, Ukraine right now. And coming back, I was looking for Citibank for 10 years, American bank. And then I started my private investment as CEO of the largest security firm in Vietnam. So during that time, Speaker 3 (3:30) I had a lot of success and I became quite... famous in a way. I don't know. I don't want to tell that, but I have everything I wanted when I was a student. The power of money, the power of being a famous person. But something in my mind, something is missing. So when I started my own business, and we've been through a lot of challenges, even sometimes we were facing A risk of bankruptcy, I think that was 2008 when there's a crisis in a region from Thailand. And I managed to go through it. Of course, this is not the time to talk about that. But when I was trying all, and my definition of success at that time is we have to be the top. And I have to be rich. Because money is giving me the power. But the more power, the more money I have, the more lonely I am. I was like in the company, no, because I'm the founder and as a chairman, I'm a big boss. I had a lot of power, but I feel powerless because, you know, my people at lunch, when I wake up, nobody's there. I have to eat my lunch by myself. And in the hall, if I came in, The whole group was silent, you know? You can have that feeling. And I was also facing a lot of challenges in my personal life. So I was looking, and at that time, the question was, what am I doing? What is my life? So when I saw really the calligraphy, they said, Ta đã làm gì đời ta? Actually, I don't see that calligraphy at my time. But actually, I was asking the same question. What did I do? what I want. And then I lost. And happily that I got a book from Buddha teaching. And there's a teaching saying that everything is illusion. So life is an illusion. So you have to let go. Oh my God, so good. I let go everything. I dropped my company and I went to experience a lot of traditions. I was studying Tibetan Buddhist for about seven years. And I also took a lot of meditations retreat in Thai, Malaysia. And I went for Vipassana as well. And I was very happy when listening to Dharma, learning Dharma. But I could not come back to my company. But that's actually my child. I was founding, I founded it. Speaker 3 (6:35) Whenever I was away, my colleagues called me, where are you? I said, I'm bowing to the Buddha. And they said, oh, we are bowing to you now. Where are you? So, you know, I feel lost because I love Dharma. I love everything Buddha is teaching, but I could not bring them to life. And I was avoiding my life. I was not myself when I was at my company. I cannot, I was so confused. And at that time, in 2016, when Thay is coming back to Thailand, and I went to meet him just because he's famous. I read his book, but I never think that I will quit Tibetan tradition because, you know, I feel the privilege. I'm so lucky because I got a high girl, you know, kind of. that perception at that time. So I came to Bangkok and I saw Thay. Speaker 3 (7:41) And I don't know what happened, but I see how Plum Village is setting the lives there. I see this is the life I want. I wish I could be younger, that I can be the monastic person, but actually could not. But really, I think I was looking for so long, and I was searching for many, you know, I was like... always running from one place to another place searching for different teachings and it was running even my friend said I never stopped because I was looking for something and when I came to Bangkok to Plum Village in Thailand I saw Thay and you know the first calligraphy I saw is Speaker 4 (8:35) Now I have a path, there is nothing to fear. Speaker 3 (8:38) Nothing to fear. I said, what path? I was asking, yes, I'm looking for the path, but what is the path? And then I was contemplating in Plum Village, and then I saw Thay. And you know, I felt very pity for myself, where I had been, why I could not meet him, when he can give a life teaching. So I was avoiding seeing him because I don't know, people were searching for chance to meet up with Thay and I was escaping. And when I ran in a different way, Thay was there. So I don't know why I met Thay all the time in the elevators, in everything. And when I met him in the meditation hall, Thay looked at me and he finger-pointed and said that, to the Khuong Tang Hoi, our ancestor. And I see, I still remember his eyes. He looked at me and he see, he pointed like that. Speaker 3 (9:47) And all of a sudden I see, oh my god, Thay devoted his whole life because I was reading his book at home but in a different perception. And at the place I was reading again and I saw Thay is a fighter. He's there, even he's sitting in the wheel and he's not escaping his life and I am escaping my life. So I was crying all the time. I don't know what happened to me, but I think I was crying because of happiness. I found that this is it. This is it. Actually, this is it. And I came back. And during that year, I took many of my friends as the leaders because we all understand our problem as executive leaders. So I took many Vietnamese executive leaders to come back. and at the same time I was enjoying. At the beginning I was taking them because I think I have to accompany them to show them the real teaching because you know it awoke me of my grandparents because our life we are very fortunate to be Vietnamese. Before I never think that being a Vietnamese is a good You know, I feel sometimes a little bit inferior as being a Vietnamese because we are poor. And then I look at the economic power of other countries and I feel we are inferior. But when I saw Thay, I was so proud to be a Vietnamese because his devotion, his work is actually human. because I was looking for the values. And when I was in Plum Village, this American professor came to me and said he wished he could understand Vietnamese so that he can understand Thay's teaching and the root of Thay. Speaker 3 (11:53) and my whole, you know, prowl and everything, I said, I want to continue Thay's dream. And that I, and my, I understand his vision, understand he's talking about collective wisdom, understand he's talking about giấc mơ đại đồng. I don't know why I don't see Thay when he's alive, but I can see his vision. And I came to the, and I have a wish that I'll come back. And luckily I found myself, I'm so fortunate because I have a platform, a company which I was avoiding all the time. And I came back and wholeheartedly I brought my people to Blum Village. But my practice was very poor. I only have emotions, a wish, a want. And then when I took my people to Plum Village, when they came back, all left. And we went to a crisis. We lost about 70 people. Because, you know, in our country, religion is a different perception about religion. People don't see the real essence of Buddha teaching. Speaker 3 (13:17) And I think I'm not skillful enough and my practice is not there yet. And there's only right or wrong, and this is good, this is bad. I don't know why I have that, the five powers Thay was talking about. That's a trust. And I trust Thay. I think he can build the Sangha, what I see is very beautiful. When I came to, I see the Sangha where in Vietnam we have many pagodas, but not many monks. We see the pagodas, we see everything is beautiful, but we don't see monks. We don't see the... The practice is just the pagoda. So I said, how they can do that? Because the monks are not paid. And here I have salary. And how they can build this consensus? When I came to Blum Village, I see things are very organized, but I don't see leaders. And when I was asking, people said, that's about Yidma. Yidma in Buddha teaching is about consensus. And at that time, I could not believe how we can run business. in a slow way, and how we can build democratic governance as Thay's vision, consensus, you know? But something is missing when I set up my own company, because it's not just that, because business is human. Business is not just KPI. Business is not just... the number one or two because we were number one or two always all the time and When I started to rebuild my VN direct again There's a there's another possible way. I still remember he's saying that so, you know what I did I stopped talking about Dharma, I have to... I start slowly seeing how Thay is building. So to be honest, everything I do right now is 100 % following Thay. Everything I do, when I meet any difficulties, I think, what Thay would do in this situation? You know? And you cannot believe that we are a group of 35 companies and I have about 7,000 people right now. But I dropped KPI because I hate KPI. That's the reason I left Citibank. But I believe in cultivation. So we create an environment same as three jewels. I translate it into Vietnamese, thầy giỏi. good teacher, good methodology and good friends. And I was finding a meaning of how I empower people because Thay has a calligraphy which knocked me a lot. This is, there's nothing more precious than brotherhood. But I transfer that into there's nothing more precious than The colic is actually a very right word. And then I shift all my focus on building a colleaguehood. We also start in the morning songs, the songs of Blum Village. In the afternoon, we try to sit and I just make it without any expectation. I see how compassion and how patient Thay was with his students. So I came back and I did the same thing. Speaker 2 (17:08) So, Khuong, There's so much in what you just shared. And it would be wonderful if every single business leader in the world were to listen to your story. And Brother Fapu, just to bring you in here, because there are so many people who, as I start out by saying, ah, the Buddhist teachings, the spiritual path, how wonderful. But they cannot find the ability to connect it to... their so-called real lives, especially in business. Business tends to be all about the bottom line, about money. And there's such a mechanistic way of seeing the world that it often excludes humanity. And so I'm just wondering, when you hear Huynh talk about this journey, just this extraordinary integration of Thay's teaching into business and the success that can create, not just in terms of... business success in terms of the traditional money, KPIs, key performance indicators, all that. But in terms of connection, collaboration, happiness, a sense of purpose. Why is it that people find it so difficult to do what Juan is doing? Well, I Speaker 4 (18:27) think not many people have the opportunity to have a broader view in life, especially in the business world in terms of what success means. And because what we're trained, I mean, I remember growing up and when we talk about careers, it's like what has the most money and power. That's what you get attracted to. And so our attraction in the world, particularly Speaker 4 (18:57) As human. And I think as men, mostly men, like we... we look for a sense of domination. And in the Buddhist context, it speaks about part of our mind consciousness, which is manas, which is greed, power, success. And a lot of the time, the success, it looks in the way of, for me to win, somebody has to lose. And I think what... Buddhism and what the Buddha and what Thay offers us is another dimension of really re-asking the question, like, what is happiness? What is success? And I'll never forget this story because Thay once asked a business leader in the United States, it's like, he asked him, if you were to choose between being successful and happiness, what would you choose? And that business leader said, both. Speaker 4 (19:58) thinking that he would be clever. But Thay said, you have to pick one. What is more important? And this business leader didn't answer. And Thay said, because if everything is important, actually nothing is important. Speaker 4 (20:15) And Thai answered for him, Thai said, I would always pick happiness because if we look back at a humanistic level, we're all humans. Our company is made of humans. Well, now AI is a different story, but coming back to the organism of a company or of people, it is the human. And what Jimin Hoon was mentioning is her understanding of her own happiness is her colleagues happiness. She was touching inter-being, she was touching the interconnection of not just the KPI, but of the people that you're working with, you're sitting with, you are collaborating with, you are speaking about. Speaker 4 (21:01) Buddhism, the monastic community, the monasteries in a way also has these questions like how can we sustain ourselves? How can we continue to grow? We also ask questions like, are we growing in the right way? Are we... Speaker 4 (21:20) Are we being successful in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha? But our KPIs are very different. Our KPI is, is there harmony in the community? Is there enough siblinghood? Is there enough understanding? Are we creating space so that we could be listened to, so that we are being seen? Are we transforming people's lives? And are young people coming to the monastery? Thay always mentioned that. It's like, if we don't have young people coming into communities, that means the body is starting to die. The body is becoming rigid and stuck. Like there's not new blood cells coming in. And I think for me as an abbot, looking at the community, that's always at my mind. It's like... is the harmony between the multi-generation in our community because having only young people, the community won't be strong. We need elders, we need those who have come before to guide, to offer, to be a pillar of stability. But then the elders also have to learn to yield, give space so that the young people feel that they are integrating, that they are a part of this river. And so there's a lot of mechanism and practices and techniques that Buddhism and the Buddha Sangha and Thai Sangha actually have, we call it spiritual technologies for harmony, for growth, for we even have something to like 360, like reviews. But what makes us different, I always feel, is the intentions that we all cultivate together. And it needs to be reminded again and again and again, because the powers of the world, like fame, power, All of that seeps into the monasteries. It sneaks in and it can cloud our mind and it can push our way of being. And we can be off track, the spiritual dimension, as well as our Speaker 2 (23:37) beginner's mind. Thank you, brother. And I was looking forward to this conversation because when I started out in journalism, I was a business and then a finance journalist. And I came in very naive and it was extraordinary to me that no one ever talked about people. No one ever talked about the repercussions of what they were doing. No one ever talked about... community. No one ever talked about social responsibility. It was always about the money and the fame. And it was so dehumanizing. And so I then decided when I was at The Guardian to set up a section called Guardian Sustainable Business, which was to look at exactly these issues, Hung, that you're talking about. And I was just this morning reflecting, I just found one of my own articles which said, Is it possible to combine the words love and business in the same sentence? I ask this question because of the self-censorship that is prevalent in the corporate world. While business is made up of human beings, its mechanized approach has turned many of us into human doings. For far too long, employees have been expected to leave large parts of themselves at home before they head off for the office or factory. The lexicon of the corporate world has been dominated by the words of war and scarcity. battling for market share, hostile takeovers, invading new territories and the like. That loud, crude battle cry has largely shut out the quieter voice of community and collaboration, and dare I say it, love. Speaker 2 (25:22) I'm really interested in, so you've taken a very radical approach compared with normal business. And when other business leaders see what you're doing, are they shocked? Do they think you're crazy? How do they respond to how you're approaching business? Speaker 3 (25:44) Actually, yes, a lot of people were looking at me at the beginning and they think that I will. destroy the company. That's why we have people leaving, especially the senior leaders. It's very natural. I don't use the word of love or happiness. It's too luxury in a business world. But it's actually, it's there, you know, because it's about the maturity. So we don't use KPI. I use BMI. That's a business maturity index. Because the world is driven by lacking KPIs, mostly financials, numbers, bottom lines, fame, everything that. But what is actually the root cause of all that? It's just manifestation of the maturity of a person in their career, the maturity of the business. I was looking at my business. Yes, we are number one. But can we be there? I want infinite game. I don't want something that I have to drive every day and the company is dependent on a small number of people. Because I have... I look at Thay, Thay has a trust in us, Buddha has a trust in every of us. We have Buddha inside. And all of a sudden I realized that I have 7,000 Buddhas. I have all the power there. It's not just me, because before my company was relying on me. Without me, I think, you know, things will die. That's why I was escaping to see how they die. And they are not dying. Speaker 3 (27:17) So, you know, I don't use words of love or happiness because, you know, in business, it's, I don't know, in Vietnam, we don't say that. It's too luxury for us. But I use the word of maturity, the trust, the respect. And we cultivate that. We cultivate that. We make people feel they are empowered. We trust in people. and we respect each other. And I start to respect the junior and I focus on the inferior team because the people who are leaders, they're already mature. They know how to handle themselves and doing the best. But if the junior team, the young people feel they are empowered and then we can make a stream of power. the river stream. And I start to focus on the young people as Thay did. Speaker 2 (28:21) So can you give me an example of how you work with the younger staff to empower them? Speaker 3 (28:28) You know, I learned Thay's teaching. We make the company very, not hierarchy. Vietnamese culture is very hierarchy. And in our corporation also, there's hierarchy. There's always... Of course, we still have that strict system, you know, we have to that systematic design. But the design thinking is everything is designed to gearing for empowering people. So we create a leadership as a servant manager, a servant leadership that's just focusing on building people. And then we create another line is a value chain driver. So we create a different organization structure, very different. I don't know, but we are very different now. I just learned from Thay also how Thay was forming the Sangha system for business, and there's a system for people, but they're all parallel. Speaker 3 (29:30) And everything we do is focusing for the eight years I was starting up my whole corporation. So I'm very introvert because we have to choose whether to grow, to go out, or we have to build a solid foundation first. So, you know, I was during that time, I was taking an insurance company that's about 33,000 people. And when I took the company, the company was at a loss of, a big loss because of the COVID and also because of the business operations was not very fragile. It's only revenue driven. So when I took over, I cannot choose KPI because, you know, if you choose KPI as revenue, you know, insurance is the risk taking. So, and I was looking at Thay, so I exactly choose the KPI of. how I can calm the team because that was an angry organization because I'm a new person, took over the management. And I don't, during my transition to set up my corporations, I don't have to fight anyone. You know, because I'm not firing people. I just rebuild the foundations and the right people are staying and people are living. So we have very high turnover, but it's healthy turnover. And the result after three years, when I took the company and redo it and bring mindfulness to the corporations, a lot of people in the industry said that. The company, that's a PTI insurance company. People say that the company went bankrupt for two years because I insisted on a noble path, you know, the right livelihood. But after three years, we hit the profit as ever high since 26 years of operations. And, you know, people are settled. And when they're engaged, when there's trust, there's cooperation. You know, engage, trust, and there's cooperation. And when there's cooperation, there's a power, and the result will come. We just have to trust in that. And we did like that. Speaker 2 (31:52) Wow. So, Brother Phap Phu, I mean, this is a shiny example of Plum Village sort of flowing into... the rest of life. Because, I mean, what Hun just described is exactly how Plum Village has been created, which is Thich Nhat Hanh isn't this dominant leader and there's this sharp hierarchy and the youngsters are ignored. But actually, it's all about community and to create community, as Hun says, you need collaboration, you need trust, you need patience. So how does it feel for you personally? Speaker 2 (32:32) to hear this sort of amazingly shining example that actually this is not just a culture that can exist in a monastery, but actually what you're creating here can actually be a model for many parts of life. Speaker 4 (32:50) Dare I say, I feel so proud.