The Fall TV We’re Most Excited For. Plus, ‘Lanterns’ E4 and ‘Lioness’ After Dark.

The Watch

Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald discuss the Creative Arts Emmy Awards, preview fall TV releases including returning series like 'The Lowdown'

Key takeaways

• The Creative Arts Emmys highlight key categories like guest acting and cinematography, with 'Widows Bay' dominating early wins.

Main topics

• Creative Arts Emmy Awards and their implications for the main ceremony

Notable quotes

You can't show up and be like, oh no, I don't have anything prepared. You guys now, you have like six days. You gotta be ready.

Conclusion

As the Emmy season heats up, Chris and Andy reflect on the cultural significance

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:05) I need supports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk. Now. Speaker 2 (0:11) Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at TheRinger.com. Joining me in the studio, he's the Manhunter. It's Andy Greenwald! How long have you known? Ever Speaker 1 (0:24) since we slept together. All those years ago. Speaker 2 (0:29) Green Wall, great to see you, man, on Labor Day. But we thought, why the hell not? You know, honestly, Speaker 1 (0:34) middle age, what are you going to do? You know, like... Hang out with the kids? No, no, no. There's TV to talk about. Speaker 2 (0:41) Yeah, I wanted to talk about lanterns. I wanted to talk a little bit about fall TV. You wanted to talk about the Creative Artists Emmy. It's good that you include me Speaker 1 (0:47) in it. Speaker 2 (0:47) Creative Arts Speaker 1 (0:48) Emmys? Yeah. Well, because the way you were framing it suggested that I had plans and Kaya and John had plans, but you were like... I want to talk about lanterns. No, this Speaker 2 (0:56) is... Saddle up. Greenwald called his own number. He was like, Monday's got to be the day. I'm a very busy man on Tuesday. Not so true. So also, like, why go on Tuesday? I Speaker 1 (1:06) know. You know? It's like the week's already over. This is Speaker 2 (1:08) where we belong. And when you look at your podcast feed and it's Bill and Sal, right? And then it's CR and Greens. Greeny. No? Do they say that? Bill and Sal? They don't call us Greeny. They Speaker 1 (1:19) don't talk about us at all. I'm just saying, like, I don't think... Sometimes. No, those are... I love those guys. Don't Speaker 2 (1:26) put Speaker 1 (1:26) me on the spot here. Speaker 2 (1:28) I got no Speaker 1 (1:28) beef. Speaker 2 (1:29) Here's what I want to do today. I do have a fall television preview. Nice. I Speaker 1 (1:33) looked Speaker 2 (1:33) at the next couple of months of releases. That's nice. And I was like, how do I want to present this? I could chronologically, I could go hype, hype, hype beast. I thought I would just rank them in terms of how much I think you're interested in them. Speaker 1 (1:46) This is going to be a good test on both the fall slate and also your knowledge of me and where I'm at. Well, Speaker 2 (1:51) what I tried to do is imagine a world in which you were just a mere citizen flipping channels, you know, scrolling through streaming services, Speaker 1 (2:03) but Speaker 2 (2:04) looking for something a little bit stimulating, a little bit of comfort, but a little bit of like provocation, a little bit of like artistic. boundary pushing. Speaker 1 (2:11) Something to spice up my otherwise anodyne existence. And I Speaker 2 (2:14) think we as a pod need it too. We need some juice back, Speaker 1 (2:17) right? Do you think? Speaker 2 (2:18) No, I mean TV does. I think we've been having some lulls covering the shows we've been covering. Speaker 1 (2:24) And by the way, I do want to ask you a Linus question this week. My Speaker 2 (2:27) silence will continue to be deafening. We're in a bit of a... Speaker 1 (2:31) I know. I'm going to push you on that. We're in a bit of a Speaker 2 (2:32) dark moment with this show for the last two weeks. Speaker 1 (2:35) I'm going to carve out a little space. I want to ask you. We could Speaker 2 (2:37) do Lioness after dark if you want. All right, I Speaker 1 (2:39) do. Speaker 2 (2:40) I don't know anything about why the Emmys are now taking place over two weekends and why there's like a hundred categories got rewarded this past weekend. This isn't new. And I don't think it was aired on TV, to Speaker 1 (2:53) my Speaker 2 (2:53) knowledge. Speaker 1 (2:53) It is odd to me that it's not just because everybody's so desperate for anything. But yes, it... The Oscars do this too. There's the Creative Arts Awards the weekend before. But Speaker 2 (3:03) it's not something where they're like, oh, did you see who won the Creative Arts Awards? That means this is going to happen next week, right? Speaker 1 (3:10) Well, no. Basically, what it is is a two nights to dispense with all of the deeply essential and meaningful categories that don't play as well on television, that aren't as prestigious, that the stars aren't necessarily receiving. I think one of the... Speaker 1 (3:26) One of the reasons why it's more evident this year is because, for example, the guest star in a television series, Emmy, has always been given away on this weekend. And I feel like between the years of 2004 and 2012, it was just Jean Smart won all of them. Before, she was Jean Smart, star of Hacks. So it wasn't like a, no disrespect to Jean Smart, but it wasn't a needle-moving sort of pay attention moment. because of the caliber of actors that come to TV these days, even just to drop in, it's a bigger deal. And like for specifically guest actress in a television series, Emmy went to Betty Gilpin for Widows Bay, along with almost any other category that Widows Bay was nominated for last night, which it won, which sort of previews, I mean, everything from score to Christian Springer for cinematography. We already knew, I think, we're going to do some predictions and previews on Thursday that Widows Bay was going to clean up, but Widows Bay is going to clean up. It Speaker 2 (4:22) seems like it. I think the big question was, does Hacks get this great victory lap Emmys run in comedy? And it does seem like Widows Bay has kind of slingshot Pitt-esque into the lead position here. Speaker 1 (4:39) And speaking of Pitt, Ernest Harding won the... highly competitive guest actor in a drama award against many other people on the pit. We played Louis. That was exciting to see. Great congratulations to him. I would say the biggest thing about this award, these awards being handed out over the weekend, is it's really like throwing down the gauntlet. And I'm just going to say this, like Katie Dippold, Hiro Murai, people who've been on our show. Speaker 1 (5:04) you can't show up and be like, oh no, I don't have anything prepared. You guys now, you have like six days. You gotta be ready. Because you're, you're going, which camera? Matthew Rhys, you're winning an Emmy. You better be ready for it. Okay. Has Speaker 2 (5:19) Matthew Rhys ever been like, I'm completely flat footed. I have nothing charming to say. Oh, the camera's on? Speaker 1 (5:24) Which one? Yeah, exactly. I'm just saying, you cannot pretend this isn't happening. Go through your process, be nervous, but be ready. because we're excited to see you win. Speaking Speaker 2 (5:35) of Hiro Murai, the director of several episodes of What Is Bay and an essential plank of the creative team there, I did an Adventures in Moviegoing interview with him where I talked to Hiro for about half an hour about his favorite films on the Criterion channel and his life as a moviegoer. And you can watch that on the Criterion channel now. That's great. Just wanted to let everybody know. I'm sorry. I didn't bring that up. That's all right. I like Speaker 1 (6:02) to be the one to celebrate you. Speaker 2 (6:03) I know you do. Whenever possible. It's really one of your better qualities. It's one of my two good qualities. Speaker 1 (6:07) The other one that kind of rocked it was DTF St. Louis. Linda Cardellini, David Harbour won. All told. Why Speaker 2 (6:16) are Linda Cardellini and David Harbour's categories not on your list? Speaker 1 (6:19) That was Speaker 2 (6:19) the other Speaker 1 (6:19) example I was going to give you. I guess to make more space in the big night. For what? For... speeches for celebrations of the medium for like, oh, it's the 25th anniversary of the Angillion sitcom, whatever. Like, I don't know what they're Speaker 2 (6:35) going Speaker 1 (6:35) to be doing, but they put the actors in a miniseries categories over the weekend as well. So they've already won. Good for them. But the big totals were, oh, the other sort of very sweet thing was that Rob Reiner won for his appearance on The Bear season four. Speaker 2 (6:52) Yes. Speaker 1 (6:53) So he won posthumously guest actor in a comedy Emmy. That's nice. By the numbers, Widows Bay won eight already this weekend. DTF St. Louis won six. The Pit has already landed four. Palm Royale and Margo's got money troubles. Two shows that are on Apple TV that we do not really cover won three. But here's the one that I think is going to be exciting for you. Okay. A little program called I Love Lucy was recognized with a legacy award, which is a little bit like giving a appreciation award to oxygen for helping us breathe. Speaker 2 (7:25) Yeah. Speaker 1 (7:25) They really went on a limb with that one. Was Speaker 2 (7:27) that a special dispensation or was it up against competition? Wouldn't Speaker 1 (7:31) that be amazing? Yeah. This one's legacy matters more. The only other thing I thought was interesting was Spider Noir won five Emmys. And that got canceled. Got canceled right before. Oh. I thought that was interesting. Did it get canceled? Yeah. Speaker 2 (7:43) I mean, I wonder whether or not that show is maybe expensive or Nick Cage is busy or what the deal was. I'm going to answer Speaker 1 (7:50) the first part. Speaker 2 (7:50) Yeah. That Speaker 1 (7:51) show is super expensive. As I... talked about when we talked about it, I can speak from some personal experience, the development of that show spans for five, maybe almost six years. Yeah. I think... They had to get it right. But here's the thing. I genuinely think from talking to some folks who were involved in it, that they feel that they did a great show and they are proud of it and that they told a story and that it's diminishing, potentially diminishing returns. to revisit it and come up with another reason for doing it rather than maybe circling back up and coming up with another spider type show. The larger industry thing, and this will filter into a lot of our other conversations, I think, in terms of just like a larger industry trend that surprised me, is that the streamers and networks are increasingly concerned about the diminishing returns for everything. Meaning the second and third seasons of shows are... underperforming relative to what people expected them Speaker 2 (8:48) to. Speaker 1 (8:48) What would an Speaker 2 (8:49) example be? Speaker 1 (8:50) I mean, I think you could point to what are some shows that came back this year? I mean, we were talking about this briefly when we were talking about Last of Us coming back, which is still a blockbuster for HBO. Speaker 2 (9:02) Neil Druckmann doing some bang-up PR for Last of Us Season 3. What's he been doing? I didn't see. He's just like, I have nothing to do with it. Cool. Yeah. And seems to be rather pointed in his like, don't... Don't loop me in on this. Speaker 1 (9:15) That's sort of my attitude generally about heroes, adventures, and movie going. Yeah. Speaker 2 (9:20) I wasn't part of it. Speaker 1 (9:22) Good luck with it. I hear good things. Yeah. But what I'm trying to say is it's not just the three-year gap between seasons that some shows are experiencing. On the 10,000-footest, 10,000-foot view of things. there was a swing away from the expense of launching a show, limited series, big stars and whatever, just for that one hit. Speaker 2 (9:44) And Speaker 1 (9:44) thus we've seen people trying to crack the code of, is it the pit that comes back every year? Is it task that goes from limited to ongoing? But the pendulum in terms of development is seemingly swinging back to people saying, we'd rather just have limiteds. Speaker 2 (9:59) I feel like the kid in Speaker 1 (10:00) the Speaker 2 (10:00) front of the class. It's bringing it back every year. I agree. Speaker 1 (10:04) There Speaker 2 (10:04) are so many little things you can see from this short episode order for something like Adults, Speaker 1 (10:11) where Speaker 2 (10:11) for fans of that show, that's basically a two-night experience rather than a 10- to 12-week experience. You can point to shows that inexplicably, like not VFX-heavy shows, taking two, two and a half years to come back. Gary Oldman just talked about this. some slow horses promo where he's just like the show works because a bunch of people work insanely hard to make this model that we, we follow work, which is essentially the British model, but still like it works really well. I want to do our fall TV preview for Andy. But I do, I did. also since I have you here, um, and I know Nathan Fielder's work is very important to you. Wanted to ask you about this out of nowhere news that Nathan Fielder and Lance Oppenheim have made a documentary about Elizabeth Holmes. Right. Speaker 1 (11:03) It's Speaker 2 (11:03) coming out next month. Um, that Speaker 1 (11:06) Sean has already seen. That Speaker 2 (11:07) Sean has already seen. And you can see his, his, uh, I assume glittering review. He said he wrote ha ha ha ha ha on Letterboxd. So I assume that means he enjoyed it. Uh, Or he enjoyed the spectacle of it happening or whatever. He keeps Speaker 1 (11:22) you guessing. It makes you want to tune in to the next Speaker 2 (11:24) episode of The Big Picture. It Speaker 1 (11:26) looks Speaker 2 (11:26) very intimate. Speaker 1 (11:27) It does. So what's the name of this thing? It's called Everybody Means Nothing to Me. No, that's Elliot Smith. Everybody all the time now. Look at me, everyone. Come on. Speaker 2 (11:39) You can see Speaker 1 (11:39) everything. I wasn't wrong. It's an excruciating trailer. Okay. But cool. Good. No, I want to be honest with you. I want to have like a real, I want to have a real reckoning about this. Okay, Speaker 2 (11:54) let's do it. Speaker 1 (11:55) Many people know. Have you Speaker 2 (11:56) continued to experience this phenomenon that you're having of people thinking that you look like Nathan Fielder? Is that what you're going to say? Speaker 1 (12:04) I would say since the glasses went full time and I started, you know, just doing a lot more core work, you know, no, not that part, but you do Speaker 2 (12:15) look good. Speaker 1 (12:15) You know what? I think we're both doing great. Thank you. I would say it has, it has dissipated a little bit. I think the sting of having someone ask for a photo with who they thought to be Nathan Fielder in front of my younger daughter was, you know, that was a tough one. That one took some time. Speaker 1 (12:34) But the bigger thing that I have to say is, you know, one can't be cowardly about art. You know, one has to run towards the things that discomfort us, if I may. And I also feel strongly, though I've yet to remedy this, that I am aware of the massive mistake I made in not engaging with the rehearsal season two. And that I must. Speaker 2 (12:55) You're scared of flying too, or you were. So that was part of it too. Speaker 1 (12:59) No, I don't love flying. I'm not scared of it. But you know, there's this thing when you're on an airplane and you kind of like, Bumps a little bit. What do you call that? Turbulence. Don't love it. Yeah. Don't love that part. But everything else is fine. You know, it's great. Food. Food is delightful. Speaker 2 (13:16) The Speaker 1 (13:17) duct tape. You know, whatever you need. Anyway, so just to say that I need to address this blind spot. I admit it. I'm okay with it. This is great. This is Speaker 2 (13:25) growth. But that Speaker 1 (13:26) said, the underlying thing, why I didn't engage really with Nathan for you is because the style of comedy is him. inches away from Elizabeth Holmes' face while she doesn't blink. And that's intense. Well, Batman may have met his Joker in this documentary. I don't know anything Speaker 2 (13:44) about it. There's a lot of buzz about it. There's a lot of speculation about it. And I think that there's going to be an issue with like a cohort of critics who have gotten to see it. And then I think Lance Oppenheim and Nathan Fielder are relying on their secrecy and their, you know, being honest to their... whatever forms they had designed to see it, like to not reveal what usually happens with Nathan Filger's work, which is like major, I can't believe this is happening kind of twist. So I'm very curious to see what that is. Speaker 1 (14:15) I, um, I also, you know, have to stay true to the other previously staked out position, which was super pro Lance Oppenheim because primetime looks like one of the most exciting movies of the year. Speaker 2 (14:26) Looks gangbusters. So Speaker 1 (14:27) I Speaker 2 (14:27) want to just be held accountable. Um, Let's talk a little bit about fall television before we do the lanterns. So I went through kind of my usual sources to see what was coming out over the next couple of months. People want to know who your sources are. Metacritic.com. Okay. And then it's like slash TV release dates. I didn't mean like in the way that the Speaker 1 (14:47) Justice Department wants to know who's talking to the Times. I just thought maybe you had some other ways of getting this information. Isn't it Speaker 2 (14:53) the Pentagon? They're the ones who are like polygraphing everybody, Speaker 1 (14:55) right? Yeah, but you know, national security. Speaker 2 (14:58) That actually comes up in... And Linus. Speaker 1 (15:00) I can't wait to talk about it. Why did we lead with that? Okay, we'll save it. Because you're worried. You got to be accountable too. I'm going to give some Speaker 2 (15:08) footsteps. It's Pete Hexeth. Look, I wanted to put together a top 10 list of shows that I thought you'd be fired up about because I think that we have had a weird year. Not you and I, but TV. Yeah, I think we're good. Where... We started out very strong. I thought we had the pit and we had industry. We had a bunch of shows that we've liked. Widow's Bay, Furious. The top end is very strong. There have been years where I've been like, man, I already have my top 10. This year, I could probably fill it out. But it's not only been a little bit fallow, in my opinion, but it's also been uninspiring. Up until Furious and Widow's Bay, especially I'm into furious. I found it to be like TV has kind of lost its, its way. We have a lot of stuff that feels like it's bloated. A lot of stuff that feels like it's undercooked. Do Speaker 1 (16:04) you, I'm going to push, I'm going to dig a little bit here. Now, do you feel like it's because things, there haven't been enough things that surprised or delighted, or is it that the, the volume of mediocrity has started to drown out the highs? I Speaker 2 (16:17) think it Speaker 1 (16:17) also Speaker 2 (16:17) could be me. I think also when you put up. If you spend a ton of time watching something as generally programmatic as weekly television or episodic television, you can start to see some tricks and you can start to see some seams that maybe you don't if you're just casually watching a show at a time here or there. And that's on me. I have to find my joy. But some of it is like, oh, I know. I'll give you an example. There are scenes in... Lanterns, for instance. Yeah. But I can think of a couple of shows like it where there are more, it's more or less a set piece or more or less like a piece of physical action where a character might be getting chased or a character might be trying to get into a building that they're not supposed to get into. Speaker 1 (17:05) And Speaker 2 (17:05) the entire time I'm like, obviously they're getting into the building. Like, how long is this? You know Speaker 1 (17:10) what Speaker 2 (17:10) I mean? I see. So that there's something where I think I'm hitting against. the maybe limited scope of the visual storytelling, but the over-reliance on needing those visuals to be effective or something like that. There's a couple little tenets of that stuff that I'm like, okay, I'm banging my head against the wall a little bit here, but admittedly, I did this research on the next couple months and I'm just as excited as you will be. Speaker 1 (17:36) It's interesting though, because I think you're 100 % right that