Forensic Psychologist Dr. Shannon Curry Breaks Down Lindsay Clancy Trial, MAFS

The Viall Files

In this episode of The Viall Files: Reality Recap, forensic psychologist Dr. Shannon Curry joins the hosts to provide expert insight into the Lindsay Clancy trial,

Key takeaways

• Postpartum psychosis is a serious psychiatric condition distinct from postpartum depression, often misunderstood online.

Main topics

• Lindsay Clancy trial and forensic psychology perspective

Notable quotes

"This is not a case of whodunnit."

Conclusion

The episode concludes with a strong emphasis on the need for accurate, compassionate

Transcript preview

Speaker 5 (0:13) What's going on everybody? Welcome back to another exciting episode of the Vile Files Reality Recap Edition. I'm your host, Nick. At some point I'll be joined by my... Wonderful wife, Natalie Joy. She's wearing her baby. We're getting things settled. Things are hectic, so we're running a little late. We got a full household. Welcome back, Sierra. How are you? Speaker 2 (0:33) Hi. Good. How are you? Speaker 5 (0:35) You know, I'm doing well-ish. I'm doing great. It's all great. Happy Speaker 2 (0:41) to hear it. And happy to be back. Speaker 5 (0:43) Well, it's great to have you. Jimmy, also, welcome back. Thanks Speaker 6 (0:47) for Speaker 5 (0:47) having me. Always happy to be Speaker 6 (0:49) here. Speaker 5 (0:49) Every time I Speaker 6 (0:50) talk to Jimmy, I want to be like, what'd you do this weekend? Speaker 5 (0:52) Like, was it fun? Speaker 6 (0:54) This weekend Speaker 5 (0:54) was fun. Where did you travel? Who did you meet? Speaker 6 (0:57) I was in Denver for the J. Cole concert. Got to go backstage after. J. Cole. What are some of his songs? Love Yours, Middle Child. Speaker 5 (1:08) Play it. Play it on your phone. I know we can't air it. I'm down. Play it on your phone. I think he was pivotal and mine didn't. Nelly's sexy life early in our relationship. Wet Speaker 6 (1:19) dreams? Come Speaker 5 (1:20) on, that's a banger. No, that's not who I'm talking about. First things Speaker 6 (1:24) first, rest in peace, Uncle Phil. No, Speaker 5 (1:26) we definitely didn't hook up to that. Hey, we Speaker 6 (1:27) got a good thing. Oh, he had me crying. Does he have a real, Speaker 5 (1:31) like, a love song? Like a sexy song? Oh, yeah, Speaker 6 (1:34) Love Yours. J. Cole can turn you up. He can put you in your feels. He can make you get over a breakup. J. Cole is very versatile. I don't know. Okay, well, we'll have Speaker 5 (1:42) to ask Natalie if I'm thinking of the right artist. But anyway, welcome to the show. Mary is also with us. Lots to get into. We have a very special guest I'm very, very Speaker 6 (1:51) excited about. Speaker 5 (1:52) Dr. Shannon Carey, a clinical and forensic psychologist who has been covering this Lindsay Clancy case. And very excited to talk about her. We had, I thought, a really great conversation with our booker, Angela, and just kind of talked about postpartum and... some of the struggles that the moms deal with and just the importance of awareness around postpartum. But I'm really excited to have Dr. Shannon with us because I think there's just a Speaker 6 (2:15) lot of... Speaker 5 (2:16) Just a lot of information floating around online about this case and a lot of misinformation. And I think she's going to bring a really objective point of view to this case. And if you guys are interested in objectivity when it comes to this case, I think you come to the right place. And really, I hope you learn a lot from Dr. Shannon. I'm really excited to have her on. And that is going to be coming up shortly. But before we get to Dr. Shannon, welcome Natalie Joy. Speaker 1 (2:41) Oh, my God. Hey, girl. Speaker 4 (2:42) You came just in time. Speaker 6 (2:44) All righty, Speaker 4 (2:44) Sierra. And Iris. Welcome, Iris, everyone. Iris! It's your first. Hi, Speaker 6 (2:49) Deva. Speaker 4 (2:49) Your first feature. At Speaker 6 (2:51) the J. Cole concert, breast milk was offered to me. Period. Speaker 2 (2:56) Backstage or on the... In the suite. Speaker 5 (2:57) Babe, is J. Cole who was part of our relationship early in our hooking up era? Speaker 4 (3:04) J. Cole is who I was playing their album on the way to our date night. his album and you were like can you change this and i was like oh okay so that's who that was and then he kept skipping the songs what Speaker 6 (3:15) album well Speaker 4 (3:15) it was just like j cole essential and he kept skipping the songs and he was like wait time and Speaker 6 (3:19) place time and place i understand on the way to date night might not be the i just it wasn't yeah Speaker 5 (3:23) who is the who's the artist that we we cautious cautious clay that's cautious Speaker 1 (3:29) clay who was driving uh Speaker 5 (3:31) was it you natalie i was driving you Speaker 1 (3:34) were driving Speaker 5 (3:35) I was driving. Speaker 1 (3:36) But you were in control of the music. Nick, I don't know if you were technically allowed to take over Ox in that moment. Speaker 4 (3:40) Nick is never in charge of music. Speaker 5 (3:43) That's true. Speaker 4 (3:44) That's Speaker 5 (3:44) true. I definitely, that's Natalie's go-to. Speaker 4 (3:47) But if he is driving, he is in control of the skip button. Speaker 1 (3:49) Yeah. Well, speaking of music, Taylor Swift, actually, this is what I wanted to talk about. She revealed some like coping mechanism mantras she repeats to herself. Because obviously she's Taylor Swift and things can get pretty big when you're, you know, the biggest star in the entire world. So this is what she says to herself in the mirror. Speaker 5 (4:08) Let's hear Speaker 1 (4:08) it. Speaker 5 (4:08) I'm excited to hear this. I've heard it, but it's awesome. Speaker 1 (4:10) You chose this. You chose this every day. You could have opted out of this any day before it got unmanageably big. And Speaker 2 (4:18) I decided not to because I love it that much. That's just where it begins and where it ends. Everything that comes with this ultimately is worth it as long as I get to still make music, she said. This is her. She says that every day. That's a long. That's Speaker 4 (4:30) a long mantra. Speaker 1 (4:31) Sorry, I didn't read Speaker 4 (4:32) the whole thing. Speaker 1 (4:32) That's why she's tailoring with it. It's Speaker 5 (4:33) just a Speaker 1 (4:33) long mantra. Badass Speaker 5 (4:34) mantra. Yeah. Outside of the because it's music, you could apply this to a lot of. very wonderful, rewarding things that also come with a lot of difficulty and hardship. Parenting could be one of them. I can do this. You Speaker 4 (4:47) chose this every day. I'm telling you to myself Speaker 5 (4:49) right now. Well, I definitely don't say it as eloquently as Taylor Swift, but like, you know, so much in life. I don't know a single thing in my life that I really value and appreciate that hasn't come with a lot of challenges. Like, you Speaker 6 (5:03) know, Speaker 5 (5:04) I don't find that it exists. Maybe other people feel differently. Speaker 6 (5:08) Next Speaker 5 (5:09) Gen NYC cast. Speaker 6 (5:10) Yeah. Speaker 6 (5:12) I Speaker 1 (5:13) chose this every day. Wait, do you guys have mantras that you say to yourself? Like, what do you say to yourself in the mirror to, like, hype you up? Mine's really Speaker 6 (5:19) similar, actually. It's the same kind of, like, notion, but my mom always instilled this one in me. It's life ain't about waiting for the storm to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain. Speaker 1 (5:28) There you go. That's really good. Speaker 5 (5:30) The Speaker 6 (5:30) storm's always going to be there. Just make a party out of it. Speaker 1 (5:32) Hurricane party. That's what we used to do when I grew up. I just look in the Speaker 5 (5:35) mirror and say, lock it up. Lock the fuck up. Lock the fuck in. You are that guy. A couple Speaker 2 (5:40) slaps in there. Yeah. Lock it up. You say lock it up, not lock Speaker 5 (5:43) in? You got this. Speaker 6 (5:44) 3 Speaker 5 (5:45) a.m. in Speaker 2 (5:45) the Speaker 5 (5:45) morning. Natalie's upstairs with River. I'm by myself. I got two twin babies. It's feeding time. I walk into the bathroom and turn on the lights. Splash some cold water in my face. I'm just going, let's fucking go. Where are Speaker 4 (5:56) they when you're splashing water? I'm Tiger. Speaker 1 (5:59) Yeah. I have questions. Speaker 1 (6:03) Mine is, mine is nobody cares. But in like a positive way. Speaker 6 (6:07) Like it's not that deep. Speaker 1 (6:09) Yeah, it's not that deep. Like no one cares. You can live your life. Speaker 5 (6:12) River, she's unlocked a new cute era. So we often like, well, you know, we read her a nighttime story. The Speaker 6 (6:18) old routine was read the story and then we'd be like again and I'd be like one Speaker 5 (6:22) more time and then we'd read it one more time and then she'd give a book, a big hug and a big kiss and we'd go to bed. Now. I read the first time, or Natalie, and the second time, River reads to us. Speaker 4 (6:33) And her version Speaker 5 (6:34) of reading is, it's a lot, from page to page, it's like, and then? And then you just step out. And she's like, and then? And it's really cute. And she has a book called The Little Rude Truck. Are you familiar with The Little Rude Truck? I don't know how old it is. Speaker 1 (6:52) No, I've never heard of The Little Rude Truck, but I'd love to hear how it's rude. I Speaker 5 (6:56) can't really memorize it. And Little Boone Chuck went, beep, beep, beep. Speaker 1 (6:59) I Speaker 5 (6:59) kind of Speaker 6 (7:02) read it like that. Speaker 1 (7:03) Okay. Speaker 6 (7:04) There's Speaker 1 (7:05) a B. Yeah. Speaker 6 (7:05) And Speaker 1 (7:06) there's a line Speaker 5 (7:06) where the big dump truck got stuck. And because he wasn't nice, nobody heard or nobody cared is a line in the book. And the only line that River remembers from that whole book is, and nobody cared. And I'm like, period. Like, I love it. She gets it. The one thing that she took away from that book is like, no one gives a fuck. It's not about you. And the fact that my, potentially my daughter is learning that at two and a half years old, I feel like is a win. That's really good. Do you Speaker 1 (7:32) know who it is about though right now? And what I, what I really, another thing I really want to tell you guys about. New Beverly Hills housewife, Tracy Tudor. Speaker 5 (7:41) I'm not familiar with Miss Tudor. Speaker 1 (7:43) All right. Well, here is what we know about Miss Tudor right now. Is this official? Is this locked Speaker 5 (7:46) in? Is this a blog? This Speaker 1 (7:48) is. It's pretty locked in as far as I'm concerned. She Speaker 5 (7:50) posted, Speaker 1 (7:50) okay. Speaker 5 (7:51) She Speaker 1 (7:51) posted about it and like made an official announcement. So yeah, so basically she's already got beef with Dorit. So we're already cooking there. Speaker 5 (7:58) She's from Speaker 1 (7:59) Million Dollar Listing. So she's been on reality TV before, but Million Dollar Listing on pause since 2024. This is her statement she made on Instagram. Beverly Hills is home. I've raised my girls here, built my career here. And now apparently I've decided to let you all in even further into my life. Excited? Very. Nervous? A little. Likely to get into some trouble? Absolutely. So what's left to say but let's fucking go. That's Speaker 4 (8:24) a Speaker 1 (8:24) very Nick line. But last year she went on Jeff Lewis and claimed Dorit didn't pay her glam team's bills and also stalked Speaker 4 (8:31) her Speaker 1 (8:31) on social media. So Dorit is denying this and is basically like clocking her and saying she's you know attention seeking or whatever. She writes it very gossip drill Speaker 5 (8:40) XOXO. I love it. It's great. Nervous? Little. Scared, for sure. For sure. But let's Speaker 1 (8:48) fucking go. Speaker 2 (8:49) Bravo's so messy. Speaker 5 (8:50) Are you familiar with Miss Tudor, Ciara? Speaker 2 (8:53) I'm not because I didn't really watch Million Dollar Listing, but I have seen the clips circulating of Dorit on Watch What Happens Live saying that this girl is just out to get her, essentially. And the fact that this was years ago when this was brought up on a Watch What Happens Live episode that I'm like... The idea that y'all brought her on this cast just to torment poor Dorit. She's also friends with Speaker 5 (9:14) Crystal. Even Speaker 1 (9:15) better. Yeah. And Speaker 5 (9:16) also Dorit thinks everyone's out to get her. So welcome to the club. Speaker 1 (9:20) If Crystal comes back and Crystal gets like a little ally against Dorit. Oh my God. And then also the stuff with Kyle is happening still. That's Speaker 6 (9:27) what Speaker 1 (9:27) I'm saying. Beautiful, gorgeous television. Is Speaker 6 (9:28) this the show where like they have like the intros where it's like, I'm. So-and-so. And I put the fun in functional. Yeah. Okay. My ex used to play like the compilation of their intros. She used to crack me up. Like the little sound bites. I love them. Speaker 1 (9:46) My favorite of all time is Mary M. Cosby's. If you come for me, I will send Jesus after you. Like what? Speaker 5 (9:52) We need to find out someday which one the producers come up with or which ones are the housewives. Because I bet it's about 50-50. Speaker 1 (9:58) I would love to know the authorship of each of them. Speaker 4 (10:01) What's crazy is like, you know, we were talking about the rumored cast last, yesterday? When was that? I don't know. All the days of the Speaker 1 (10:08) same. Speaker 4 (10:08) The Dancing Speaker 1 (10:08) with the Stars cast? No, the Speaker 4 (10:09) Beverly Hills rumored Housewives cast. That makes sense. Yeah. And Candice Moreno was one of them. And she is a dear friend of ours and also a facialist. And so when I texted her and was like, oh my gosh, is this true? She was like, I have no idea how that, like I popped zits for a living. Like, I don't know. how my name got in the mix. I don't know what's going on. They also used an AI photo of me. Like, I don't know why they didn't just go on my Instagram. It's Speaker 1 (10:36) probably one of the Speaker 5 (10:36) housewives submitting her so they can bully her into free facials and then get in a fight with her because, like, she's not being a good friend because she's not giving free facials. That's probably it. Damn. That Speaker 2 (10:46) is a dead baller. I'm also thinking it's like some blogger that put their like fantasy cast together, knowing maybe that Tracy was one of them because Morgan Stewart also went on her Instagram was like, I have. no idea what happened yesterday, but I was never in the running. I've never had a Speaker 4 (11:03) conversation. Speaker 2 (11:03) I Speaker 4 (11:04) would Speaker 2 (11:04) never Speaker 4 (11:04) do this. Speaker 2 (11:05) She goes, seeing how excited you guys are, maybe I should be a part of it. But like, yeah, no, she had no idea why her Speaker 4 (11:10) day was in the running. She has nothing to Speaker 5 (11:11) gain and everything to lose. Speaker 4 (11:13) So I feel like that leaves Tracy Tudor and Rosanna Pansino as like the two, right? Because it was like, there's going to be two and these are the four. So I feel like. We narrowed it down pretty quickly. I Speaker 5 (11:24) think Rosanna's legit. I think the streets were saying that maybe she's, this isn't the first time. Did Speaker 4 (11:30) Morgan Speaker 5 (11:30) Amanda take Speaker 4 (11:30) her spot last season, maybe, potentially? I heard Speaker 5 (11:33) from a reliable source that it was down between, yeah, those two. And Amanda, I don't know if she won or she's the only one accepted, or I don't know if there was an actual offer, but I don't think it's as made up as the Speaker 6 (11:49) Morgan Speaker 5 (11:49) Stewart rumor. Speaker 1 (11:50) Yeah. I wonder, I mean, sometimes people like just don't get picked for, you know, don't get cast for like really weird and random reasons. We Speaker 5 (12:01) also have, uh, apparently there's some rumors about the, uh, Bravo looking in cities like Nashville and is it Dallas? Chicago. I don't know about Chicago though. I think, well, one lived in Chicago from the Midwest. I'm rooting for that. Uh, we know some people in Nashville. Um, The streets are talking here. The streets are talking in Nashville. What are they saying? What are the murmurs? Well, we know some of the key players in Nashville. The type of people people might reach out to to say, do you want to be on a reality TV show? Speaker 2 (12:31) Can you spill anything? Trying Speaker 6 (12:32) to connect the dots here. Speaker 5 (12:33) No, I'm not going to. No, no. I mean, I can't. No, I don't know if they're comfortable with that. Speaker 2 (12:38) If I guess. Can you blink twice? I'll Speaker 5 (12:41) tell you when we get done. Speaker 2 (12:42) Okay. Speaker 5 (12:44) I Speaker 2 (12:44) don't think any Speaker 5 (12:45) names that, you know, like it's, I don't think it's hard to figure out who might be considered. And Nashville is rich in reality TV personalities. So Speaker 2 (12:52) true. Speaker 5 (12:52) Chicago, different, a little different, you know, like there's not, you Speaker 6 (12:55) know. I Speaker 5 (12:56) have some people I have in Speaker 6 (12:57) mind. Speaker 5 (12:57) For the better part of a decade, like Nashville was like the East Coast. Like if you weren't going to move to New York, you moved to Nashville. I Speaker 6 (13:05) think it's still like that for like my generation. I feel like everybody's moving to Nashville. Yeah, yeah. A lot of people, a lot of people are. Speaker 5 (13:12) Anyway, we're about to get to our guest, Dr. Shannon Curry, a clinical and forensic psychologist, to talk about the Lindsay Clancy case. And certainly there's a lot. Everyone's talking about it. There's so many layers to the discourse on this case. But there's also just a lot of misinformation and a lot of intense feelings around all the information that's out there. So we are bringing in Dr. Shannon to help guide us through this conversation with a little bit more. We want to be as accurate as possible. We're excited about having her on the show. When we come out of Dr. Shannon, we're going to talk Married at First Sight, and we're also going to talk a little Double Lives of Suburban Wives. And I'm excited to talk to you about why I think the term Speaker 6 (13:53) self-sabotage is wildly overused by both the dumper Speaker 5 (13:57) and the dumpy. And I'm over it. And we need to stop misusing the word. It's lost its meaning, and now it's being abused. Or misused. I can't wait to say that and then have half the internet lose their mind. Anyways, Dr. Curry, she's up next. If you're like me, you probably lose your glasses. I've never had a pair of sunglasses. I have it lost or broken. Ever since I discovered Zenni, it has changed my life for the better. Losing an expensive pair of sunglasses can just ruin your day. It's frustrating. It's up there like getting parking tickets. But with Zenni, when I lose them, they're like all under 30 bucks to replace. Now, I wear sunglasses. A lot of people wear sunglasses and they have prescription glasses. And I'm sure many of you have related to losing or breaking your glasses. Well, Zenni offers style prescription glasses, sunglasses, customizable lens options starting at just under $30. And you can pick your frame, enter your prescription, customize your lenses, and they're shipped directly to your door. 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Speaker 5 (15:44) One Speaker 4 (15:45) of my favorite things to do when I finally get the limited amount of free time that I have is to scroll the RealReal because it brings me so much joy to just see the archival, the really cool designer pieces that are sold out, you can't find anymore, are vintage, whatever it is. It's like the best place that I can clear my mind. The Real World drops over 10,000 new arrivals every day from brands like Gucci, Fendi, Prada. They also have brands like Reformation, Alo Yoga, if you're looking for... a really cool vintage pair of cowboy boots they've got some takovas lucasys whatever it is you're looking for you can find it on the real real the real world has a rigorous authentication process and a team of luxury experts so you can shop authenticated luxury with confidence the real world is the most trusted name in authenticated luxury resale with over 10 000 new arrivals daily No one does resale like The RealReal, and now get $25 off your first purchase when you go to therealreal.com slash files. That's therealreal.com slash files to get your $25 off. Start shopping now at therealreal.com slash files. Speaker 5 (16:52) Dr. Curry, welcome to the show. Speaker 3 (16:53) Thank you so much. I'm really happy to be here. Speaker 5 (16:56) Well, we're so grateful to have you. Our dear friend, Emily Baker, recommended you. I've seen you on the internet, really, really admire what you're doing. And then we asked Emily to come on. She's like, I'm not really covering this case. And she had her reasons why. But she reminded me of you. And we reached out and you were very gracious to come here. And I'm so excited to have you because, you know, not only do I have so many questions about the Lindsay Clancy case, but obviously as new parents, you know, I mean. You might have to bill us with some of the questions. I Speaker 3 (17:24) can be weird with new parents. I once approached a woman who was carrying a baby in the parking lot and just asked, how are you doing? And, you know, part of me was thinking like, this is crazy. This is weird. She's going to tell me to F off. And she was she just started crying. And she was like, it's hard. And I said, look, I know I get it. This is the hardest thing you're ever going to go through. And everybody's just blowing smoke up your ass and trying to convince you that this is all just fairy tales and rainbows. And it doesn't mean you didn't want your baby. It doesn't mean you don't love your baby. It just means this is legitimately one of the most difficult times of your life. The first year after you've had a child, it's going to be the hardest time of your marriage. The research shows that marriages are never worse than that first year. And then they gradually, you guys are going to gradually get a little bit happier with each other again. It's going to take about 18 years, though, for you to go back to normal. So just I like to normalize this stuff so that you don't feel like you're alone in it and you don't feel like there's anything wrong. That's Speaker 5 (18:27) great to know because I feel like, yeah, overall, you know. Speaker 5 (18:32) We Speaker 4 (18:32) definitely do fight more in the first year of our children's lives, though. That is true. Thank you. In the middle of the night, we're doing Speaker 5 (18:39) feedings and we're, you know, it's, there's a, it's, you know. Speaker 3 (18:42) You're exhausted. And look, for people who don't have a lot of support, I, I just can't even imagine. You're sleep deprived. You're, you have this entire role transformation. You don't have the normal social support that you would have had before. The whole baby thing really was meant to happen when we lived in little village tribes and had people constantly available to hold the baby. And so it's just, it's really tough. Speaker 5 (19:05) Let's start with the case itself, because I think that's what the discourse has really taken on a life of its own. You know, I think this case started obviously in the true crime genre, but now it's become a mainstream conversation. A lot of it has to do with the conversations that are being brought up around postpartum. But as far as the case itself, I feel like there's... you know, a lot of, as always is the case with these, the internet is like a lot of misinformation and a lot of fan theories around true crime. And so I want to try to as much as possible deal with what, what are the actual facts? Anecdotally, I was, you know, I just over the weekend, I mentioned this story on our show yesterday. But I asked a friend, I'm like, Oh, you found like, Oh my God, of course. And then immediately they're like, Oh, he did it. I Speaker 6 (19:50) was like, Speaker 5 (19:51) Oh, okay. Now, at this point, I became more and more aware. Natalie has been following a lot of the information I received was from Natalie. I was aware there was a little bit of discourse around like theories around him. They were convinced that he did it and they had been watching the case. And then gave me a bunch of lists. It was like the body temperature at 82 degrees, his reaction to the 911 call and things like that. And again. as someone who watched the case, I was like, I wasn't really pushing back. I was, cause I was like, Hey, I didn't. And they're like, you need to watch the case. And this person was like selling their opinion is like, as if they came up with it on their own and an individual informed opinion. And then, and then I go online and I'm looking and this person was just parroting like the, the talking points of everyone who thinks he did it. And it, you know, and it's all the same talking points. Right. And then I'm looking online and I'm seeing other people being like, you know, people who actually listen to the 911 call. telling a very different story. And I'm just curious, how are you seeing discourse online? And what are the facts of the case? But I'm also just kind of interested in how do we get to a place where so many people are convinced? You know what I'm saying? I wasn't about to argue with my friend because this is a very smart person who I respect their opinion, and they were convinced he did it. And I was just a misinformed person who hadn't taken the time that they had taken to learn about the case. And how did we get here? Speaker 3 (21:14) Okay, so there's about a thousand questions in that question. But no, they're amazing questions. I mean, this is the stuff I literally think about at night and don't fall asleep. So there is a general, when you see an increase in conspiracy theories in general, kind of a collective conspiracy theory tendency. Usually there's a lot of public mistrust in institutions. I'm a psychologist. I'm not interested here in going into where I think that mistrust is deriving from currently. I think there are excellent arguments for educational system. I think there are very strong arguments in the psychological field for social media being a primary source of information these days and entire generations who are now growing up from birth. to adulthood with social media as their primary source of daily information and interaction. That's their town square. So there is a different, I think, norm around where you get your information, who you listen to, the loud voices that anybody can be a loud voice on social media. I've seen it myself. I've seen people in forensic psychology. And, you know, it's just. It's wild out there. There's no real checks and balances on that platform or on any social media platform. So there's that. And then you have cultural components with mistrust in systems. You can have political influences. So that's one entire issue where you could bring in a specialist on that. What are the facts of the case? Separate, incredible question. So as a forensic psychologist, I have to know a little bit about the law. I have to have a general knowledge and understanding of the law because my work involves answering what we call, it's a term of art within the field, the psycho-legal question. And that is one part or several parts of a statute, an illegal statute, where the psychology actually intersects. And we can provide information to the fact finder, which means the judge or the jury, to assist them. in helping them make the ultimate decision that they have to make about that statute. It is not our job to usurp their role and make that decision for them. We are just providing the psychological information that's relevant to that statute. So it's important to know what the statute is because unlike a normal clinical evaluation, we're not just bringing everything in. We understand. that when we're conducting an evaluation for the courts, these are people's rights on the line. And we're not going to introduce prejudicial information or incriminating information unless it is specifically necessary for that statute or in that jurisdiction. So everything that comes in should be very tailored to the jurisdiction, to the legislation, to the statute. This is not a case of whodunit. This is not a case where we're looking at evidence to see who the guilty party is. This is a case of criminal responsibility. So it means that the insanity defense has been raised or an insanity plea has been made where somebody is conceding that they committed the acts, but that they lack the mens rea, the guilty mind, or they lack in Massachusetts, there are two prongs, two components that would make them guilty of a crime. So you can only be charged with a crime if you... have the guilty mind. You're a criminal. If you were not in your right mind or you were unable to control your behavior, and the actual wording of not in your right mind means in Massachusetts, you were not able to appreciate the wrongfulness of your actions. And then you get a second prong. You also get the jury can find either or. Or you were not able to control your behavior because of a mental defect or a mental disorder. then you are deemed not criminally responsible. Now, that doesn't mean you go out into the world. And in some cases, frankly, which is worse, going to prison for the rest of your life or going to a mental institution for the rest of your life? The idea is that if you are found not guilty by reason of insanity or in Massachusetts, sorry, I want to be accurate, not criminally responsible by reason of mental disease or defect, You don't just get released. The judge is likely going to remand you to a state mental hospital. And then the goal is treatment. So now it's not about punishment. You're not hospitalized for as long as you would have been incarcerated. It's a separate thing because, again, you're not guilty of that crime. You've been acquitted. But the goal is public safety and treatment of this illness. So even if. You are no longer showing any symptoms and you have all your treating providers on a panel. They do regular reviews of whether somebody is eligible for what we call conditional release. Even if everybody on that treatment team is saying she has been a model patient, she has been leading her mall classes, she helps with this, she worked in the recreational garden, et cetera, et cetera. She's gotten another master's degree. She has shown no symptoms. She's been compliant with medication. Speaker 3 (26:33) even so, the court would have to find her to not be a threat to society of any reasonable risk of danger. And now I've seen cases working in, I used to work in mental hospitals. So on that end, I've done those evaluations within the hospital or testified