Norman Finkelstein Cuts Through Israel’s Propaganda: Gaza Genocide, Oct. 7 & Netanyahu’s Corruption

The Tucker Carlson Show

In this episode of The Tucker Carlson Show, renowned political scientist Norman Finkelstein delivers a scathing critique of Israel's policies toward Gaza, arguing that the territory has been systematically reduced to a 'concentration camp' since

Key takeaways

• Gaza has been described by multiple international observers—including Al Gore Sr. and UN officials—as a concentration camp since the 1950s.
• Israel's blockade of Gaza, initiated after Hamas won democratic elections in 2006, was designed to starve the population into removing Hamas from power.

Main topics

• The history of Gaza as a humanitarian disaster zone
• Israel's military operations in Gaza (Cast Lead, Pillar of Defense, Protective Edge)

Notable quotes

"If epidemics break out in southern Gaza, that's a good thing. It's a good thing for there to be epidemics." – Giora Eiland, Israel's National Security Council head

"A whole civilization is being destroyed." – Mary Robinson, UN humanitarian chief

Conclusion

Finkelstein concludes that Israel's actions in Gaza constitute a sustained campaign of destruction and

Transcript preview

Speaker 3 (0:04) I want to Speaker 2 (0:05) ask you about the October 7th attacks or in the aftermath. So the October 7th attacks happen. And for those of us who are not really following Gaza, I was definitely in that category. It seems to kind of come out of nowhere. Correct. And the main question that I had was, well, how could Israel not have seen this coming? But what I didn't think enough about is why did the attack happen? What was the context for that, which is not to excuse it. I just want to be clear I'm not excusing that or any killing of innocents. But what was happening in Gaza right before that? Speaker 3 (0:41) Well, it's not just right before that. Gaza becomes Gaza in 1948 after Israel expels roughly 750,000 Palestinian Arabs from the area that becomes Israel. Of those 750,000, 300,000 are expelled to Gaza. and they become roughly 80 % of Gaza's population, obviously swamping the original Gazan population. Now there are all these Gazans from Israel. Who hold Speaker 2 (1:16) Egyptian citizenship at that point. Speaker 3 (1:19) In 1948, Gaza is simply part of mandated Palestine. Okay. A British mandated Palestine. So about 80 % of the population. are now refugees. Speaker 3 (1:37) If you go back and look at the literature, it's quite interesting that already in the 1950s, UN officials were stationed in Gaza. Now, this is when Gaza is under Egyptian control, okay? Because Egypt gains administrative control over Gaza after the 1948 war. Already... It's being described as a concentration camp. Now, this is under Egyptian control. If we fast forward to 1967, in July 1967, Al Gore Sr., the father of the person. Senator Speaker 2 (2:25) from Tennessee. Speaker 3 (2:26) Correct. Al Gore Sr., he goes to visit Gaza. That's correct. And then he comes back and he testifies before Congress on what he observed. And he describes Gaza as, quote, a concentration camp on the send, if you will. So already, beginning in 1948, outside observers coming to Gaza, that's their reference. Speaker 3 (3:03) Now, in 2004, the head of Israel's National Security Council, his name is Giora Eiland. Giora Island is not a peacenik. He's still among the living, still very active, advising right as we speak the Israeli government. He was the one who said around 2024, he said, if epidemics break out in southern Gaza, that's a good thing. It's a good thing for there to be epidemics. Speaker 2 (3:37) Epidemic of disease? Yes. Speaker 3 (3:40) Now, in 2004, he's having a conversation with senior U.S. officials, and he describes Gaza as, quote, a huge concentration camp. Now, bear in mind, the first individuals I mentioned, that's 50s, early, mid-60s, concentration camp had a very definite resonance. Speaker 3 (4:12) And yet, those are the words that leapt to mind, or those are the descriptives that leapt to mind. Kiero Eiland is Israeli. He's Jewish. He's the chief of Israel's, the head of Israel's National Security Council. As a Jew and as an Israeli, surely he knew. the resonance of describing a parcel of land as a concentration camp. That's the descriptive he used. Now, here's the, not footnote, but here is the big qualifier. That was Gaza in its best days. That's a fact. That was Gaza in its best days. In 2006, our president, George Bush, he embarked on what he called democracy promotion. You might remember that phase. And part of democracy promotion was he told the Palestinians they had to hold elections. Speaker 3 (5:29) Hamas did not want to participate in the elections because they saw it as part of what was called the Oslo process, namely when President Clinton, Yasser Arafat, and Yitzhak Rabin signed an agreement in 1993, which Hamas felt was a sellout. So they didn't want to participate in the elections because they thought it was part of what was called the Oslo process. Pressure is put on them, pressure is put on them. They finally agree to participate. Well, they run on a reform platform because the Palestinian Authority is hopelessly corrupt, and they win the election. Well, the wrong side won. Hillary Clinton later said, we made a big mistake. we should have made sure that Hamas didn't win, which is her concept of a democratic election. So the moment Hamas gets elected, Jimmy Carter, who observed the election, he called it, quote, completely free and fair elections. That's how he described it. It was actually the first free and fair democratic Speaker 2 (6:49) elections in the Arab world. Speaker 3 (6:52) The first time, some people say Tunisia before, but I think it's credible to say these were the first fully free and fair elections. Israel at that moment, it imposes, and then followed by the US and the EU, imposes this medieval blockade on Gaza. It draws up this long list of things that you can't allow into Gaza. You can't allow in chocolate. You can't allow in baby chicks. You can't allow in potato chips. You can't allow in any condiments. You can't allow in musical instruments. You can't allow in notebooks. Speaker 2 (7:40) And they said they were Speaker 3 (7:41) very open. Well, I shouldn't say they were very open about it, but the documents were eventually released. They were going to put the people of Gaza on a... quote, humanitarian minimum diet, which is another way, is the euphemistic way of saying a starvation plus diet. And they said they were very open about their goal. We're going to... keep the Gaza economy on the precipice of collapse so the people will ultimately remove Hamas from office. What was called, if you remember, and you don't go back that far, but when the Popular Unity government came into power in Chile in 1971, and the U.S. was very upset about that, and they said that we're going to turn the screws on Chile until the economy screams. And that's what Israel attempted to do in Gaza. And by 2008, Speaker 3 (8:55) the UN humanitarian chief, Mary Robinson, she visited Gaza and she said, quote, a whole civilization is being destroyed. I'm not exaggerating. A whole civilization is being destroyed. By October 6th, I think it was The Economist magazine described Gaza as a sinking ship. A UN official described it as a toxic slum. It was a disaster, a disaster zone. a human-made disaster zone, that illegal inhuman blockade of Gaza. And then every few years, Israel launched what it called an operation in Gaza. They used the term, we're going to mow the lawn in Gaza, which Speaker 2 (9:57) is a Speaker 3 (9:58) kind of humorous metaphor. until you factor in that one half of Gaza's population are children. And then if we connect the metaphor with the reality, that means the blades of the mowers are cracking the skulls of the children of Speaker 2 (10:32) Gaza. So how do you pray? Well, for a lot of people, the answer is complicated. Our friends at the Halo app are ready to help make it much simpler. If you're uncertain about where to start your prayer journey or what to say when you talk to God, then Hallow's newest prayer challenge is perfect for you. It's 21 days of prayer designed to help you intentionally make time for faith. Probably the most important thing. It will change your life. 21 days of prayer. You will hear from people from totally different backgrounds on how they pray. Pastors, nurses, athletes. Like Deion Sanders, all answering the same critical question of how they communicate with Jesus. It's not an abstract theological exercise. It's a comprehensive experience that brings you closer to God. That's the point. So if you're not sure where to begin in your relationship with God, if it seems kind of intimidating, answer this invitation. Give God 21 days with Hallow and see what happens. Download Hallow for three months for free at hallow.com slash Tucker Speaker 1 (11:32) Hallow. H-A-L-L-O-W. Imagine if every time Inverse Kramer or another top investor bought a stock, you bought it too, in your own brokerage account, automatically. Well, that now exists and it's called Autopilot. Built by the team behind the viral Pelosi stock tracker, Autopilot lets you browse their marketplace of strategies run by proven investors or AI-driven models. Just find one with a high return, connect your personal brokerage account like a Schwab or Robinhood, and every trade they make, you make automatically. Your money never leaves your own account. Autopilot just mirrors the moves. So now no more guessing, no more staring at charts, and no more checking the market between meetings. Also, over $1.3 billion is already invested. So if you want to check it out, search Autopilot in the App Store or go to joinautopilot.com. That's joinautopilot.com. Investing has risks like the loss of principal. Speaker 3 (12:31) So you had Operation Cast Lead in 2008-9, Operation Pillar of Defense in 2012, Operation Protective Edge 2014, these high-tech killing sprees. Speaker 3 (12:57) When Operation Protective Edge ended in 2014, it was 51 days. I believe it began July 7th and ended August 26th, I'm pretty sure. When it ended, the head of the International Committee of the Red Cross, his name was Peter Maurer, he went to Gaza. Now, bear in mind, the job description of the head of the ICRC, the International Committee on Red Cross, is basically to tour war zones. He walked out of Gaza and he said, never in my life have I seen the level of destruction that I saw in Gaza. Now, just to give your listeners a juxtaposition, that means placing side by side. Speaker 3 (13:56) In Operation Protective Edge, 18,000 homes were destroyed or severely damaged. Moore said, I've never seen levels of destruction like that. In Gaza now, 325,000 homes were destroyed since October 7th. In Protective Edge, there was left behind roughly 2.5 million tons of rubble. Speaker 3 (14:31) In Gaza now, 61 million tons of rubble. Back then, it was unparalleled in conflict zones. In 2014, now... It's not even a blip on the screen compared Speaker 2 (14:54) to what Israel has done. Do we have a reliable estimate of the number of people, all aggregate number of people killed in Gaza since October 7th? Speaker 3 (15:06) No. I mean, there are all sorts of projections on the number of persons killed, everything from the numbers that the Gaza Ministry of Health give to... Speaker 3 (15:20) As I said, there's so many different projections, it's hard to know which are credible, which are not credible. And also, how do you calculate it? Speaker 2 (15:30) Are Speaker 3 (15:31) they deaths from bombing artillery shells? But then what about all the deaths from people who, because of hunger, their immune system, the children, their immune systems are significantly compromised and they die. Technically, not from... direct fire. They die from medical reasons. So I don't think there is a good number. One number which I found interesting, I've not made the comment publicly, I only recently started to think about it. There are all sorts of denials that Israel has committed genocide in Gaza, and I'm happy to engage with you on that question. But on a strictly statistical level, the most recent UN report on Gaza deals with the targeting of children in Gaza. And also the West Bank, the targeting of children in particular in Gaza. Now, if you take the case of the Nazis, and they also say that's a key indicator of whether or not we're dealing with a genocide or we're dealing with a war. If large numbers of children are being targeted, then the argument that this is a war... begins to, questions are raised about whether it's a war or whether it's a genocide. The percentage of the current statistics we have, the Gaza Ministry of Health, the percentage of children killed is put at 30%, roughly 30%. In the Nazi Holocaust, the estimates are 6 million Jews were killed, of whom 1.5 million were children. So roughly 25 % of those killed were children. Now, if it's correct, and I believe there's certainly a plausible argument, that the number of children killed, the percentage, is an indicator of whether we're dealing with a war or whether we're dealing with a genocide, I would say if we're all agreed what happened during the Nazi Holocaust was a genocide and 25 % of the victims were children, then certainly by analogy, a plausible case is in Gaza, if 30 % our children, that's a strong argument that it's a genocide. I Speaker 2 (18:27) should warn you that the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism includes comparing the actions of the Israeli government to those of the Nazis. So you've just committed anti-Semitism. Speaker 3 (18:36) Well, the problem is with the IHRA definition is Israelis are all the time comparing their enemies to Nazis. That's Speaker 2 (18:47) a Speaker 3 (18:47) great point. Why do they get to do it? Why do they get to make the comparison when nobody can compare them to Nazis? That's just totally inconsistent. You go back into history, they said Nasser in Egypt, the first president of Egypt, Gamal Abdel Nasser, they said he was Hitler. They said Saddam Hussein, you might recall, head of state in Iraq, they said Saddam Hitler. They all the time saying... They're actually saying the mullahs in Iran are worse than Hitler. Prime Minister Netanyahu said, Hitler only wanted to conquer Europe, but the mullahs in Iran want to conquer the world. They're worse than Speaker 2 (19:39) Hitler. A Hamas is Hitler. Everybody is Hitler. But Speaker 3 (19:45) the moment you say they carry on like Nazis, it suddenly becomes a taboo, a red line. But that doesn't make any sense to me. Speaker 2 (19:56) Imagine it's 3 a.m. You're dead asleep. You wake up to a weird noise. It sounds like it's coming from inside your house. Well, that's terrifying. Is it a home invasion? How do you react? By panicking? Well, not if you have Stopbox Pro. Stopbox Pro is probably the best way to store your firearms. It's built for actual people who want real protection without giving up speed or control. There are no keys and there are no batteries, and that means you'll always be able to get the Stopbox open. There's a five-button interface that gives you and just you immediate access when you really need it. That means your firearms are going to be 100 % secure but always right within reach. Stopbox Pro is made proudly in the United States by Americans. Real jobs, no child labor in some weird country. It's totally American. For a limited time, this show's listeners can get 10 % off at Stopbox when using the code Tucker at checkout. Visit stopboxusa.com and use the code Tucker for 10 % off the whole order. After you purchase, feel free to say that you heard about it right here on this show. So you think it is fair to say that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza? Speaker 3 (21:05) I would say the following. If you take the accumulation, the cumulative effect of what Israel has done, you don't look at it discreetly, this action, this action, this action, this action. You take the total picture. Speaker 3 (21:27) Israel's—the density and the rate of Israel's bombing in Gaza—unprecedented in modern conflict. In some cases, even as far back as World War II. If you take the worst cases in World War II, like Dresden, The intensity and rate of destruction is higher in Gaza. That's a fact. Than Speaker 2 (21:52) Dresden? Speaker 3 (21:53) That's correct. That's correct. Not just Dresden. There's Dresden and a couple of other major cities, but they've slipped my mind. Number of children killed. Speaker 2 (22:04) Wow, that's shocking what you just said. Speaker 3 (22:05) Yeah. Number of children killed. If you take all combat zones in the world combined, Speaker 3 (22:14) for the years, say, 2020, 2021, and combine them, all the combat zones, more children killed in Gaza, amputees, child amputees. I'm not sure if it's child or maybe it's all amputees. It's now the densest concentration of amputees anywhere in the world. Schools, 97 % of Gaza's schools have been destroyed or severely damaged. Targeting of hospitals, targeting of medical personnel, targeting of UN workers, targeting of journalists. They're all in a so totally different category. Speaker 3 (23:12) They're in a totally different universe than the closest second, closest third, closest fourth. So then what do you conclude when you add up, as I said, you take the cumulative picture? I don't see how you can possibly reach any other conclusion. The one qualification I would make is... It's not so much a qualification, it's a clarification. I don't believe Israel's goal is genocide. Its goal is empty out Gaza. They were very clear about that. They want to ethnically cleanse Gaza. But the means they are using, their modus operandi, is the destruction of the Gaza population until they leave. Now, you could say, but they Speaker 2 (24:14) can't leave. Speaker 3 (24:16) Because the border is sealed and nobody wants them. And that's true. So they will continue killing until they achieve their goal. And if it's to kill everybody, Speaker 2 (24:27) they will kill everybody. They Speaker 3 (24:30) are dead set on, for once and for all, solving the Gaza question. They want to solve the Gaza question. And for them, solving the Gaza question means the expulsion of the population. And the only way they can persuade the population to leave and persuade neighboring countries of the world at large to take them in is to commit a genocide. So I have spent quite a lot of time going through the human rights reports and various other documents. And when you see the cumulative effect of what's been done, I don't see how you can reach any other conclusion, which is why, as I'm sure you know, not only many, if not most, leading authorities in international law, not a few of them Jewish. Speaker 3 (25:39) Even Israel's major human rights organization for the occupied territories, B'Tselem. Persons like, I believe, Arya Nair, who founded Human Rights Watch. Kenneth Roth. Arya Nair is a refugee from the Nazi Holocaust. Kenneth Roth, who was the former head of Human Rights Watch, in various venues. They have all concluded that it's a genocide. But there's another factor. Now, I'm not saying it's authoritative, but I would certainly say it's indicative. The estimates are 30 to 40 percent of American Jews believe it's a genocide. That's a kind of astonishing fact. Bombarded as they are from youth to love Israel? Speaker 3 (26:50) attending synagogues where support for Israel is a key, a tenet of belonging, and yet, and to their absolutely eternal credit, it's genuinely a sight to behold. Speaker 3 (27:16) And maybe I should, but I kind of, I rebel against it, take pride in as a Jew. 30 to 40%. believe Israel is committing a genocide. It's a credit to that community. And I would add, as I'm sure you're aware, because you told me before the interview that you have been in, so to speak, a Jewish milieu a large part of your life, very educated. These are not people who are easily bamboozled. or duped or tricked. And yet they have reached that conclusion. So here again, I say, if you look at the cumulative picture, experts, human rights organization, International Court of Justice, which reached the preliminary conclusion that Israel was plausibly committing genocide. That was back in January 26th. 2024, so it's long before the horror that unfolded since January 26th. I think it's the other side that has to make a case. The broad consensus is there now. Speaker 3 (28:47) It's a horrible consensus. Speaker 2 (28:51) Instead of making the case, what I see happening is attacks, not just verbal attacks, but attacks on people's employment against anybody who says, wait, this is cruel and awful. Those people, the Trump administration stripped them of their green cards in a bunch of cases. So I don't see anybody trying to make the case. for