Inside the FBI Hostage Rescue Team | Kyle Vowinkel

The Team House

Former FBI agent Kyle Vowinkel joins Jack Murphy to recount his 25-year career spanning from the military police to the elite Hostage Rescue

Key takeaways

• Vowinkel emphasizes that 'leaders lend their nervous system' to their troops during crises like the Gitmo riots.
• The HRT selection process is designed to disrupt sleep and mental stability using tools like flashbangs and intense physical strain.

Main topics

• FBI Hostage Rescue Team (HRT) history
• Leadership under extreme pressure

Notable quotes

Leaders lend their nervous system.

Conclusion

The episode provides a profound look at how extreme adversity shapes c

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) and it goes south from Speaker 3 (0:02) there. So the ATRF come, the assaulters come, vehicle right up the front, and it's a shootout. Rounds start coming both ways. We're shooting at him. They're shooting. And we have one of our guys get shot really badly on the porch. He gets two right underneath the vest. He goes down to a knee. Same guy went, then is right there at the window. He stands in front of the window. to obscure firefighters at the guy while two other guys go grab him, move him off the porch, get him around the corner, and they start providing him medical care until the ambulance can pull up. So there's a longer 20-minute firefight going back and forth. He then, at one point, opens the front door, shoves his wife out. It's like, holy moly, there's another person Speaker 2 (0:53) inside. Speaker 2 (1:00) Hey, folks. Welcome to the team house. I'm Jack Murphy, and we're very happy to have in studio our guest today, Kyle Voenkel. He is the author of Shaping Chaos. It's a new book about leadership, but also it infuses some actual lessons from your career. He spent 25 years at the FBI and very interestingly served in both the hostage rescue team and the crisis negotiation unit. Probably one of the very few people that have served in both of those outfits. Speaker 3 (1:28) There's only been a handful of us. Yeah. Crazy enough to make that switch. Speaker 2 (1:33) And, you know, Kyle had he went to West Point, spent time in the military police, then went to the FBI, HRT, JSOC deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan and some other stuff. Also present for the Boston Marathon bombing aftermath and the Alabama bunker boy rescue that HRT and CNU participated in. successfully rescuing a kidnapped kid. So there's a lot to talk about here. And thanks for being on the show, Kyle. Speaker 3 (2:03) No, thanks for having me. Yeah, fortunate, truly, to be part of some exceptional teams and some exceptional work. Speaker 2 (2:09) Yeah. So take us, you know, to the beginning. Tell us a little bit about, like, where you grew up and what kind of, like, interested you in, at first, the Army. Speaker 3 (2:18) I grew up in San Diego. Right next to Miramar, you know, Top Gun, Jets, Roaring Overhead. Cool. My dad was a naval aviator in Vietnam, so very patriotic city. And I grew up in the 80s watching, like, Rambo, you know, Red Dawn, and Rocky. You know, love those movies. So much so, my brother, he was older. Like, we would dress up and Speaker 2 (2:38) play Army. Oh, Speaker 3 (2:39) yeah. Like, we went Speaker 2 (2:40) to the old, like, surplus stores, Speaker 3 (2:42) bought camouflage fatigues. And imagine doing this today. Like, we 14-year-old boys wearing full camo. We had plastic guns. We had spray paint black so they looked real. We'd cam up our face, and we'd walk down Speaker 1 (2:54) the middle of the street to the canyon. You know, four or five dudes. You know, people called the police. We'd never get out of our Speaker 3 (2:59) house doing that. So we kind of loved playing army, if that makes sense. Even though we're in a Navy town with a Navy dad, they went in the reserves after his active duty time, and I wasn't alive when he was in Vietnam. But I grew up in that community, and my dad really modeled that service to country. But I was kind of a rebellious kid. Argued a lot with my mom. I was handcuffed twice. Put in police. Got in five car crashes. So that's your Speaker 2 (3:28) introduction to law enforcement. Speaker 3 (3:29) Exactly. And my dad, he had actually worked for San Diego PD for a couple of years and crashed five of my parents' cars. And I was not a good kid. Speaker 2 (3:42) So when I... I mean, did the Army come about because, you know, a judge or maybe your dad were like, yeah, you're, you know, destined for military service? Speaker 3 (3:54) Good question. No, my parents definitely thought I could possibly end up in jail because I would sneak out of the house and like, we would never do anything serious or wrong, but we're like snuck in the community pool and, you know, swam at like midnight on like Sunday night. Again, doing no destruction. Did destroy some pumpkins one Halloween. That was the first time I got handcuffed. You know, we took somebody's pumpkin and destroyed it, which we should have done. And, you know, a cop took me back and cussed to my parents. And thankfully, it was never written up. Sorry, Mom and Dad. So that was my first time. The second time was Senior Ditch Day. You know, the cops came to Senior Ditch Day and, you know, broke it up. So I was never placed in detention or I should say never taken in custody to jail, but just on site. And my brother was two and a half years older. And he went to West Point. He got in. And it wasn't until I visited him, like, my sophomore year of high school, that I saw the academy grounds. And more importantly, I saw the cadets and, like, the discipline, the kind of tribe the military was, and the cohesion, the morale, and that esprit de corps. And that's when I decided I want to be part of that. Because I really was kind of a wayward youth, like I said. So that was really the impetus for me to apply. But again, I was pretty foolish. How dumb was I? That's the only school I applied to was West Point. Again, my mother and father could have throttled me, and I just barely got in, got my congressional nomination, and it was because I visited my brother and seeing, again, the cadets and the campus. Speaker 2 (5:27) And so this is in the late 1980s? Yeah, 1989. 1989. And how did you take to West Point in that regimented way of life? Speaker 3 (5:37) Not good at all. Because actually, I remember I had teachers even tell me during the parent-teacher conferences senior year, telling me and my mother, there's no way Kyle's going to make it at West Point. Because I was actually the class clown, too. So not only am I rebellious, but I want to make people laugh when I go to West Point. And it was a... Total culture shock. And I knew it was going to be regimented, but I didn't know that it's so regimented, like your toothbrush has to Speaker 1 (6:01) be Speaker 3 (6:01) pointed one way in the door, and your toothpaste lid has to Speaker 2 (6:04) be Speaker 3 (6:04) pointed the other way. Like, it's down to that level of detail. Again, understandably so now in hindsight, but then as a punkish 18-year-old, I couldn't stand it. So actually, I got in trouble several times. We had Army-Navy week as like the biggest week of the year. The closest West Point ever gets to a real college is that week. because everyone's so kind of pumped up to beat Navy. It's the biggest football game of the year, of course, the biggest sporting event for West Point, for sure. And we had a jockstrap rally on the plane of West Point. The superintendent had told us, don't do it. Well, of course, me and like 200 of my classmates go out there anyway. It's like midnight, so no one's going to see it. No public's going to see it. But we go out midnight on a Thursday, you know, and we do a quick, you know, go Army chant, beat Navy. And then we run back, and I was tackled and caught. And I got called, I got the regiment on board, like a really serious disciplinary, like 60 area tours. We were marching back and forth. That's the system they had. And it was just brutal. So yeah, the first semester I was, again, not a good cadet because I just, I didn't like being told what to do. And I just kind of rebelled against authority. Speaker 2 (7:10) How long did you have to spend every night marching? Speaker 3 (7:12) Well, they only let you do five hours a week. So it was only. like two hours on a Friday and three on a Saturday. But you'd have to spend like an hour or two preparing all your stuff because you'd have to brash, shine your brash, shine your shoes. So even though it was only five hours, you really ate up like seven or eight. And then you couldn't like go out even off campus, right? When you're restricted, you're doing the area tour. So you just have to sit in your room. So you can march off, like I said, you get five every weekend. So what did that work out to be? 12 weekends, but that sucked. Speaker 3 (7:44) Social life is not a positive aspect of West Point. Speaker 2 (7:48) From West Point, you branched into the military police. Why don't you tell us about your introduction to the FBI while you were at West Point? Speaker 3 (7:57) So there was another cadet. There was a law enforcement tactics club there. And the cadet's dad was an FBI agent. And obviously I'd heard about the FBI growing up, kind of thought it was cool. And, excuse me. that dad took us and fellow members to the FBI range one day. We went shooting. I thought, wow, this is really interesting how the FBI runs a range, now the military runs a range. Then a few months later, we went to the Tactical Emergency Vehicle Operation Course, TVOC in Wallkill, New York. The FBI driver trainer used to be there. And we got to drive cars, you know, super cool, you know, driving cars fast and, you know, skidding around. And it's just like a light bulb on me, a light switch, like... The military is so regimented, it needed to be, and I also thought about the officer career path. You didn't get to be a shooter, per se, or really do the fun stuff for that many years as an officer career. But I learned you could be an FBI agent your entire career. You never had to move, transfer, either. You could stay in one place, do one job for 20 years, and that really appealed to me. So I decided at West Point, I'm going to try to go in the FBI. So that's why I chose... or I branched military police trying to make myself more competitive in my subsequent bureau application. Speaker 2 (9:10) And so how did you like, I mean, in retrospect, being a military police officer? Speaker 3 (9:15) It was not my favorite job. I enjoyed the people I worked with, but the mission, you know, patrolling the streets and enforcing, you know. Road regulations. I didn't enjoy that at all. I did get to deploy. I was with the 1st Cavalry Division at Fort Hood most of my time. So we got deployed to Full Eagle, the 30-day to Korea. That was really enjoyable. I went from Pusan all the way up to the DMZ. And that was my first deployment overseas. Then went to Gitmo for six months with the Haitian and Cuban refugees. And that was kind of interesting because there was one. when the president said they're not going to let any of those refugees back into the States. Speaker 2 (10:00) Was this like the Muriel boat lift or is Speaker 3 (10:03) it after that? It was after that. Because that was Cuba. Yeah. Speaker 2 (10:07) But Speaker 3 (10:07) there's still like, it was like 20,000 refugees separated in several camps. And I was a first lieutenant. So I had a camp of maybe 2,500 Haitians. And when they got the news of that, like riots broke out, like no shit, we had Speaker 2 (10:22) to Speaker 3 (10:22) evacuate. our positions inside the camp they were sharpening tent poles and they had little juice cans remember those little orange juice cans like four or five ounce they were filling with rocks throwing them at soldiers that was the first time i had to lead an element like into harm's way and i was so nervous because we again we'd evacuate our positions the haitians are running amok we had you know hard perimeter units established in humvees with Mark 19s and .50 cal. So they weren't exiting the camp, but we still had to go back and take control of the camp. So, you know, all the junior lieutenants and myself, we're all looking at one another like, what are we going to do, you know? And then, you know, battalion commander, of course, makes a call. We're going back in. Go get all your riot gear on and your troops, and you're leading your platoons back in. That was the first time I remember, like, putting on that heavy riot gear, which is super heavy, too. Like, talk about none. Speaker 3 (11:19) Not that any gear is ever comfortable, but it's just really difficult to maneuver and lead. And I remember the troops were looking at me, and I was nervous for the first time, like, sincerely thinking, crap, like, this is on my shoulders now. Everyone's lives is in my hands, and I don't know what I'm doing. Like, I don't know how to take back a camp, you know. And we just said, all right, we're going to get out of line, all right, and just we had our sticks. No weapons, right, because we're not taking weapons inside the camp. and just formed a skirmish line. There's just shields and sticks. Yeah, shields and sticks, and just one step at a time, and they're throwing shit at us, and thankfully it wasn't serious melee, like we weren't getting into fisticuffs, but I was definitely nervous when we were first about to enter. Speaker 2 (12:02) Have you ever heard the story about the MPs that got into something similar down in Panama? Speaker 3 (12:07) No. Speaker 2 (12:08) It's kind of like a... like for some people it's an urban legend this really happened i think it was a cuban refugee camp in panama okay and uh they revolted and the mps got sent in um you know to to kind of squash it and some of those guys i wish i could remember the exact unit i remember their nickname was the wildcats that was the platoon and they described it like They were like the Roman Legion because these like volleys of rocks were just coming and just pelting, like messed them up real bad. So they kind of got pushed backwards, as I recall. And then that night, the MPs went in there with 2nd Ranger Battalion, and they all had baseball bats and axe handles and got their satisfaction. Tuned Speaker 3 (12:57) them up. Speaker 2 (12:58) Tenfold from what I've been told. Speaker 3 (13:01) Yeah. I've not heard that story. Speaker 2 (13:03) I know some people who are there. That's no shit. True story. Yeah. Speaker 3 (13:10) Interesting. Yeah. So Speaker 2 (13:12) what was the result of that for you? The Speaker 3 (13:16) camp riot? Learning, right, that leadership is about projecting confidence even when you're not confident inside. Right? And I say leaders lend their nervous system. Right? Because everyone looks to that leader. Even if you're second or first lieutenant, all the 30 troops were looking to me to be composed. Right. For me not to be highly emotional and to make decisions and be right there with them. I'm standing there right side by side and I'm not showing any fear even though inside I'm a tiny bit nervous. So that was the most important thing I realized is that it's okay to be a little bit nervous, but for your troops and for the mission, you've got to stay composed. Yeah. Because you lend your nervous system to everyone and they're going to feed off you. Yeah, yeah. And if you're... You Speaker 2 (14:04) start panicking, they will, yeah. Speaker 3 (14:05) Yeah, you know, it runs like wildfire, panic. Yeah. Same thing too. If it's calm, cool, collected, then generally they'll be calm, cool, collected. Speaker 2 (14:12) So I take it you guys got the camp under control. We did, Speaker 3 (14:15) yeah. We marched in there and as soon as we got within 10, 15 feet, you know, they scattered. They're big talkers when we were, you know, outside the fence. As soon as we came in, then it was... It wasn't that rough to take it back over. Speaker 2 (14:28) So as you're kind of like ending your time in the military, you're already thinking about the FBI. Speaker 3 (14:36) Absolutely. Speaker 2 (14:36) Yeah. Speaker 3 (14:37) So Speaker 2 (14:37) what was like the application process like for you? Speaker 3 (14:40) Well, I even went to night school. I got my master's degree. Speaker 2 (14:44) Was that required? Speaker 3 (14:45) No, not required. I just want to make myself more competitive. I went to ranger school. I wanted to test myself there and jump school. So those were good. At least to me, kind of. testing grounds to kind of prove myself and see if I like that kind of special or higher level units, and I really did. And then I applied at the year three and a half mark. You'll have a five-year commitment for West Point. And the Bureau accepted me. Or excuse me, the Bureau sent me a letter of rejection. And again, I'm a master's degree West Point successful officer, and I was stunned because I've been really preparing for five years to be an FPA agent. And I was afforded by the process through the San Antonio. FAA office. And so the next afternoon I could get off. I drove down there personally to the applicant coordinator and I just said, how can I make myself more competitive? And she said, oh, what's your name? Kyle Voichel. She goes through, it's like paperwork back then. She finds my application. Oh, here you are. You were placed in the least competitive pile of paperwork. You should have been placed in the most competitive. Speaker 3 (15:55) So literally, had I not drove the two and a half hours there, kind of challenged that verdict that I wasn't competitive enough, I never would have had this career and Speaker 2 (16:04) I Speaker 3 (16:04) never would have done anything. That's crazy. Yeah. So thankfully, I was able to fix the clerical error or she was able to fix the clerical error. And yeah, I got in four years, nine months, started Kwanako. Speaker 2 (16:17) Wow. And so this was 2001-ish? Speaker 3 (16:22) 98, I got out. Speaker 2 (16:24) Okay, gotcha, gotcha. So in 98, you were going through the FBI Academy. And was it what you had hoped it would be? Speaker 3 (16:33) Yeah, really top-notch intellectual people, but compared to, you know, Ranger School or West Point, it really was not physically... Speaker 2 (16:43) It wasn't the physical challenge you were looking for. It Speaker 3 (16:45) wasn't as physically challenging. And I knew that it wouldn't be an exceptionally physical challenge. I was hopeful it would be even more. Well, I remember... We had, you know, the physical fitness test is a baseline, like very easy, I don't know, 16 minutes, two miles, maybe even 17 minutes for basic new agents. And you know that before you get there, you have to pass the PT test before you get there. And everyone takes the day one, the PT test. And this guy failed. He did like 20 minutes. Or actually, he didn't even finish like the last lap. And so the end of day one training, right? This is his first day at Quantico. So my classmate said, hey, let's go cheer on, you know, John. He's going to finish his last lap. And I said, well, why are we going to cheer him on? He failed the PT test. He knew the standard coming in. And the guy's leaving. He's going to be kicked out of here, deservedly so. And I got a disagreement. I'm all for cheering other people on, but he didn't meet the standard. But that was kind of the mentality of some people. Because the Bureau of Investing a lot needed to get there, and they wanted to keep there. But he was kicked out, rightfully so. Speaker 2 (17:46) Yeah, yeah. But Speaker 3 (17:47) just an introduction Speaker 2 (17:47) to different mindsets. Yeah. Speaker 3 (17:49) More of a gentleman's course. the FBI Academy, but yeah, 16 weeks, good, really good firearms training. I enjoyed that. Speaker 2 (17:58) What do they call it? Is it Hogan's Alley? Yeah, Speaker 3 (18:00) Hogan's Alley has the most robbed bank in the United States of America, the Bank of Hogan. Because almost every day, you know, mock or, you know, actors are staging mock, you know, bank robberies and the new agents respond. It's really kind of fun to go and observe and watch the... That's Speaker 2 (18:18) like the FBI's bread and butter, right? It's bank robberies. Speaker 3 (18:21) Well, not the bread and butter, but it's just the violation we kind of start off with. The bank robberies really got a name on the board. Speaker 2 (18:31) And then you got assigned to LA? Speaker 3 (18:33) Yes. So I was super excited. I was going to work violent Colombian gangs. So Quantico on week six, they say it's a blind monkey throwing a dart at the assignment board, right? Because you get to kind of put in either the 56 offices where I'd like to go. But then the joke is it's Speaker 2 (18:53) a Speaker 3 (18:53) blind monkey just throws it. You get whatever. But I got to L.A. It was my top ten, so I was happy. And I got Colombian gangs. And I was like, perfect. I want to kick down doors, put these, you know, Colombian gangsters away for a while. And literally day one, I show up in L.A. I'm super excited. And I go see my assistant special agent in charge. And he says, Kyle, congratulations. You're working counterintelligence. I said, what? I was told. That's why he called me in gangs. He said, nope, needs of the Bureau. I said, roger that. I'll do whatever. So it took me like six months to figure out how to work a case and find the bathroom. Speaker 2 (19:31) What kind of CI cases does LA have? Speaker 3 (19:34) So LA has a lot of defense, industrial assets. And you have some universities there doing some research. And a lot of foreign entities are trying to collect. I believe that. Advanced research. So actually, there's a lot of good work in LA. I really enjoyed that counterintelligence work in LA. And I joined the, tried out for the LA SWAT team there with some great professionals there. So we did all the high-risk arrest warrants in LA. And it got you some pretty cool gigs. For example, Before Speaker 2 (20:07) I go on, do you just want to explain to folks out there when you say the LA SWAT team, it's the SWAT team that belongs to the LA? field office. Correct. Because when people think of SWAT teams, they probably think of cities, but the FBI has their SWAT guys also. Speaker 3 (20:23) Yes, there's 56 FBI field offices across the United States. Actually, each one has their own SWAT teams for those federal warrants. And then, I think it's nine offices. It's Speaker 2 (20:35) a Speaker 3 (20:35) regional or enhanced SWAT team, so they get extra training days, extra resources, and L.A. was one of those enhanced teams. So we would... travel more and help support like other field ops like Phoenix, maybe to do a larger arrest operation. We'd send a team from LA to go support them. So I was in LA and a very good reputation, former HRT guy was the team leader there. And actually I wanted to try out so badly that you had to be an agent for one year in the office. Right. And the tryouts were like 11 months and two weeks. Right. So it was like two weeks shy. And I go to see him. I said, Hey, you know, here's my background. I've always wanted to be on SWAT. I want to go to HRT eventually, but I want to do my time here in LA SWAT. There's my background. Can I try out? And he says, how much time do you have in? 11 years. He says, well, I'll see you next year. Like that quick. And that's fine. That's the standard. That was the standard. So I had to wait another year. But I enjoyed LA. It was a great bunch of guys. And we got to do some cool. Speaker 3 (21:36) arrest manhunts for some cop killers. That was my first time going on those. And that's one of the more heightened emotional operations when you know you're going after someone who's already not just committed a homicide, he's killed a cop. And so those were the ones that... You really almost get emotional thinking about because you know you want almost revenge and you got another revenge You know it starts a cloud the judgment. Let me get to most of us an LAPD officer It was I think was LAPD officer was killed and we're supporting them doing other you know going out other target locations trying to find this guy I remember that I was first I was another time I was remember you got to control the emotions You let the motions control you and that's when you make mistakes clouds your judgment Speaker 2 (22:23) Were you normally trying to scoop these guys up when they're in their bed down site for the night, they're going to sleep? Speaker 3 (22:31) Absolutely. Yeah. Ideally, if it was Speaker 2 (22:34) a Speaker 3 (22:34) super high risk, we could get a nighttime service warrant, which means we'd go in at like 3 or 4 a.m. But sometimes we couldn't get that, so we'd go right at 6 a.m. Gotcha. But that meant 3 a.m., we'd meet at the rally point at 3 a.m., do the briefing. We're rolling at 5.30, so we are literally knocking on that door at 6. a.m. And most people, the criminal type, are still asleep at 6 a.m. Speaker 2 (22:57) And so, I mean, if the guy is a violent felon, a cop killer, they won't let you explosively breach or mechanically breach the structure? Speaker 3 (23:09) No, we can mechanically breach. Explosive breaching in the FBI is reserved solely for HRT. Gotcha. Okay. So when I was on HRT, I actually was a breacher and used explosives, but not on the LA. Speaker 1 (23:20) Shopping for a mattress can get overwhelming fast. Too many options, too many opinions, and no clear way to tell what's actually right for you. That's why Ghostbed built their online mattress quiz. It's quick, it's simple, and it helps narrow down the right Ghostbed mattress based on how you actually sleep. You answer a few questions about things like your sleep position, whether you tend to sleep hot, and the feel you prefer. 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Now available in Canada and the UK, too. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash house. Speaker 3 (26:56) And Speaker 2 (26:56) what was the, you wanted me to remind you about the Golden Globes? Speaker 3 (27:00) Oh, yes. This was kind of fun. We, uh. Speaker 3 (27:05) I forget the exact mission. It was just to provide security at the red carpet for the Golden Globes. I think there was some vague or heightened threat that year. So we go and they rented us tuxedos. So there's 45 guys on the team and we were spread out. But it's super cool, I don't know, to me, being at the Golden Globes. And even though we're on the sidelines, just being there was neat. And then there's Speaker 2 (27:27) a Speaker 3 (27:27) retired agent who is... working security for the Variety after party. So it was after we're done, like we've done our official gigs and he invites, hey, you guys want to come? Anyone interested to come to the after party? And I said, well, heck yeah, let's go. So me and several guys went in there and I'm like so pumped up and excited to be here. I'm thinking like, this is cool. Like, you know, I'm a young FBI agent and I walked through the door and then Courtney Cox walks right towards me. I thought, holy, holy moly. And she goes, excuse me, where's the bathroom? You know, talk about ego, you know, going from like cloud nine to cloud zero. I just thought that she was like a waitstaff, right? My tuxedo, even though it was a random nice tux, it was nowhere near a level tux. Another funny story. This is a Marine buddy of mine. He's so funny. He and I were chatting, you know, this girl and she goes, what do you, what? She was asking us. She, like, wrote screenplays or something. And she goes, what do you ask us? Excuse me. She said, tell me about you two. And my buddy Bruce goes, well, you write movies about guys like us. Which is still, like, one of the great lines I've ever heard. So I'm, like, foiling over laughter. And then her boyfriend apparently sees us, you know, talking to her girl. We didn't know she had a boyfriend at the time. But he comes over. And, you know, Bruce is talking to the girl. She goes, oh, this is my, or he says, oh, my name's John. I'm her boyfriend. And he goes, oh, nice to meet you, Jay. You know, intentionally says the wrong name. And he goes, it's John. And he goes, whatever. Speaker 3 (29:11) Bruce had had a couple of drinks and so had I. So nothing happened. It was just some funny banter with the Hollywood type. So we left. But that was the Golden Globes party story. Speaker 2 (29:23) Any other crazy L.A. stories that you can share? Speaker 3 (29:29) There's a lot of good operations that we did out there. We're a pretty active team. Speaker 3 (29:36) We did a nice Trojan horse one. We were in a FedEx van, although it was several hours. We were waiting on target, and all kitted up, and it's hot, and it couldn't be running because it alerted neighbors. That was pretty good because we had to wait until the target was home, and then we'd open up and then go rush. Speaker 3 (29:57) Got to do some cool daytime ops. So the most of them were 06 in the morning. But that was definitely interesting. One of the other ones, we went to Cheetah's Strip Club in Vegas. Speaker 2 (30:09) I wouldn't know an establishment like that. I trust what you're telling me, though. Speaker 3 (30:14) And this is kind of interesting. So, again, we drove from L.A. to Vegas. And I forget the exact charge, like embezzling and some other issues. But they wanted to do it. when there were the least amount of customers and you know the least amount of customers and strip clubs are on noon you know like a tuesday so we drove drove up there and we're fully in fbi attire we go and you know raid the place and there's dancers on stage and we're you know i'm just talking about surreal like there's a naked girl you know on stage reality fbi put your hands up up and then you know guys are talking about scattering to the winds because they're caught littering some of their pants down. It was super awkward seeing the reaction. We were going after the owner of the club. We weren't going after the patrons or the dancers at all, but we had to secure them and search them. Even the dancers, we've got to pat down quick and make sure there's nothing underneath there. As professional as we could. I remember going to the bathroom and Like seeing the trash can full of like condoms. And I was like, so disgusting. So Speaker 2 (31:24) you guys hit it because there's like all kinds of prostitution going on in this place. Speaker 3 (31:28) Yeah. But, but they, it was something with the books and the taxes and embezzling from the office. So we wanted to get those records before they destroyed them. So it wasn't really a prostitution angle. It Speaker 2 (31:38) makes sense that that uncle Sam's coming after you over those back taxes. Speaker 3 (31:42) Yeah. You can't be, don't be cheating uncle Sam. Speaker 3 (31:47) And there was a bigger criminal case. Sorry, I don't remember more of the details of it. But yeah, obviously a federal case, it's got to be pretty significant numbers. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 (31:54) And I was Speaker 3 (31:54) watching go. That was pretty unique. Well, not every day you walk into Cheetahs and see FBI agents raiding it. Speaker 2 (32:04) Then the 9-11 attack happens while you're out there in L.A., I take it? Speaker 3 (32:08) Yes, I remember I was at my home getting ready for work, 6-15-ish, whenever the first plane hit, I saw it, and I thought, oh my God, what a horrible accident, right? I didn't... put it together right away. And then I saw the second one hit and then I knew this is no accident. You know, we're of course under attack. And so it was a few times that I hopped in the car and ran, you know, code lights and sirens all the way from, I lived in the San Fernando Valley down the Wilshire, you know, driving on the shoulder hauling ass to get to the office because nobody knew what was going on at all. We thought our whole nation was under attack. So the first thing I did is said, Hey, start walking the perimeter of the federal building. So we're in our Our attack gear just walking around, talking to everyone, driving up, like, what's your business with the federal building? We're closed today. You know, turning people away because of the attack. So the first few weeks, we were just running leads. Every neighbor was calling about, oh, the guy next to me speaks Arabic. So, okay, do you have any evidence of criminal activity or terrorist activity? No, but we had to follow up on every one of those. Speaker 2 (33:16) After the attacks, you guys were working like 20-hour days, right? They had you busy. Speaker 3 (33:21) Yeah, but it was fun. Nobody complained or bitched. But it's like when you're doing a mission that you know is righteous. Yeah, yeah. The hours invested are... I mean, we got on a better cycle probably day five or six. You can only surge for so long, like a true 20-hour surge. You're going to burn out everyone. So I think we got 12-hour shifts after that. It wasn't too bad. Speaker 2 (33:46) And how did you go about applying for HRT? Speaker 3 (33:51) So you have to submit an application, and then they interview your colleagues, coworkers, your bosses. So you have to get vetted even before you're allowed to try out. And I had two buddies on the SWAT team, Mike and John, and they were both interested in trying out for HRT as well. So we started working out together. We literally mapped out workout plans, and we switched off. Like I would do Monday's shooting, and Tuesday John would do it. We'd go to UCLA, run the stairs. Wednesday, we do pool drills because we wanted to mimic every single thing, at least that we knew that was a church selection. We wanted to practice it beforehand and replicate as much of the stuff as we could. So when we went there, right, we were ready. So we trained together for a year, over a year, like two days. And on the weekends, it was brutal, but necessary, right, to get your body in that kind of shape for selection. You don't have to be... an Olympic athlete, but your body has to tolerate an exceptional amount of physical strain. And the more or the less your body is physically stressed, then the more mentally you'll perform. So that was our thought process going in. We talked to other people that tried out. So I read Danny Coulson's book. I saw it on one of your previous podcasts in the background, No