Inside a Ransom Exchange With Somali Pirates | David Leaning

The Team House - dee takos

In this episode of The Team House, host Jack Murphy interviews David Leaning, a former Royal Marine and private military contractor with ext

Key takeaways

• Gunfire from Somali pirates may not always be an attempt to kill but rather a form of communication or escalation in dialogue.

Main topics

• Counter-piracy operations in Somalia
• Ransom exchanges with Somali pirates

Notable quotes

"I've got a theory... for Somalis, gunfire isn't necessarily an attempt on your life. It's a form of dialogue."

Conclusion

David Leaning's story offers a rare, personal window into the dangerous and complex world of

Transcript preview

Speaker 3 (0:00) I've got a theory, and I don't know if... I've never heard this from anyone else, but it's... I'm not sure if I believe it, but the theory goes for Somalis, gunfire isn't necessarily an attempt on your life. It's a form of dialogue. Speaker 2 (0:17) East African proverb. Speaker 3 (0:18) Yeah. Speaker 3 (0:21) So you could take it as that, or you could take it, you know, us in the Western world, you know, when someone shoots at you, you're like, okay, it's on. You Speaker 2 (0:27) mean to kill me, and I am, you know, emboldened Speaker 3 (0:30) to use the same measures against you. But for them, maybe it's not quite the same as that. Maybe it's just an escalation in the dialogue or a way of saying, hey, I see you. Speaker 2 (0:44) Hey, everyone. I'm Jack Murphy. This is the team house. And tonight's guest is Dave Leaning. Dave served as a Royal Marine, and then he worked for a number of different private military companies doing counter piracy work in Africa. So this is sort of a unique episode. And I think Dave has some pretty unique insights working the piracy issue, doing things like ransom deliveries, hostage recoveries, and all sorts of interesting anecdotes as we go on. But Dave, welcome to the show. I'm happy to have you here. Speaker 3 (1:15) Thank you very much, Jack, for the introduction. And thank you for having me. It's a huge honor. And I definitely feel a little bit of imposter syndrome being here, given that you've had some very eminent guests and speakers on before me. But I'll try and do my best and sort of recount some of the experiences I had and hopefully have something to share with your audience and shed light on a subject which I don't think many people have covered before. So, yeah, let's... Let's get into it. Speaker 2 (1:46) So start at the beginning. Tell us a little bit about what your pathway was into the Royal Marines. Speaker 3 (1:55) Yeah, so I've been to university, college you call it here, and I hadn't actually thought of joining until I found myself at a loss as to what to do. And my old man had been in the military. He'd been an army commando. And yeah, I figured, why not give it a go? Why not do four years? See if I was as tough as my old man was, get the Green Beret. and see if I can get a war under my belt because as a young man, all that kind of stuff seemed exciting and was definitely very appealing. So I showed up at a recruiting center, got fed all the lies about what great stuff I would get to do and showed up at Limston Commando one day at that train station, that platform that you go through and began the process to becoming a Royal Marine Commando. Speaker 3 (2:51) got through the commander course i broke both my feet had to spend 12 no 16 weeks in in rehabilitation then rejoined a troop and then yeah went on did my my service did the minimum contract the four years uh one month and one day uh not that anyone was counting by that stage um and yeah i got a tour of afghanistan um it was an adventure you know we can we can circle back to commando training and that that experience and my time in afghanistan uh which interestingly enough actually sort of intersects with one of your recent guests uh jay jay morton yeah yeah 22nd sas he was talking about the exact same places that i was we relieved his company i think he was three para and i was lima company 4-2 commando and re it was op sera, the relief in place of three para and so I know the exact position he was talking about and he mentioned an orchard at that position in Sangin. Let me just cover up my oppo there. That is that orchard. Wow. And the river that he mentioned That is that river. You went swimming in it? You Speaker 2 (4:07) guys are crazy. Speaker 3 (4:08) Yeah, you could bathe and you could wash your clothes, have a swim. The Afghan National Army would sit out there watching you. So we'd christen them cock watchers after a while because they seem to drive enormous pleasure from watching Marines. Stroking their beard. I Speaker 1 (4:24) don't know, Speaker 3 (4:24) whatever does it for them. Yeah. Speaker 3 (4:29) really random to watch that on your show a couple weeks ago and see that and be like, I Speaker 1 (4:34) was there! Speaker 2 (4:35) Tell us about Afghanistan with the Royal Marines. Speaker 3 (4:39) Well, I figured I would skip past that and go to the unique selling point of my experience because you've had tons of guys with way more operational experience than me. And really, I mean, I got to see some cool stuff, but I can't really add anything to that. But what I can do is talk about the piracy thing, which is... a bit more unique yeah yeah i mean your viewers clicked on this because they wanted to know about pirates we Speaker 2 (5:02) don't Speaker 3 (5:02) have to spend uh Speaker 2 (5:03) so much time dwelling on it but if you want to share a couple like uh formative experiences in afghanistan and we can move on okay Speaker 3 (5:12) well all right first i'm gonna have to give myself a little bit of cerebral lubrication and oh wouldn't you know it's an opportunity to show you a little relic from that time do you recognize one of these is Speaker 2 (5:25) that a uh mortar round Speaker 2 (5:28) Or no, that's an RPG. That's an RPG rocket. Yeah. Speaker 3 (5:31) Yeah. And that was I collected that from it was the morning after a contact, a pretty decent one. And yeah, I found that near our position on a several day fight with us. And it's got a neat trick as well. So, yeah, that was the shittest business trip I ever went on. But I got a free free bottle opener from it. Speaker 2 (5:57) Good deal. You survived. Speaker 3 (5:59) Yeah. So, yeah. Speaker 3 (6:04) I didn't do an awful lot. You know, I got out on the ground. I saw Sang in. I was there for a couple months. I got like the battle when we sort of relieved three para. You know, some of my friends were on the ground convoy coming in. The ground convoy never quite made it in. We flew in on Chinooks. Just flying in was pretty... Speaker 3 (6:31) It was pretty raw. They tore all the seats out of the Chinook so they could pack in as many guys as possible. We were sitting three side by side and as many deep as we could. Each Marine had his legs wrapped around the Marine in front to squeeze us in as tight as they could. So it was all very intimate. I remember at a certain point, the door gunners tested their guns. As we were flying along and the Marine to the left of me turned and smiled and we were punching each other and saying, it's just like, it's just like that movie. What's it called? a full metal jacket where the door gun is shooting at. Yeah, it was kind of like a movie. I'm probably going to say this a lot of times, but when you grow up watching movies and TV and something happens and that's your only point of reference, you're like, wow, this is just like a movie. And so, yeah, at a certain point, the loadmaster told us to get up, stand up. And once again, it was like that Band of Brothers where each man is lifting up the man behind them. and you have that moment where your eyes meet and you're like, okay, for most of us, this is our first time going in. We know Sangen has been the hottest patrol base in the whole of Helmand, and it's likely it's going to get hot on the way in for most of our time there. And then maybe my mind is playing false with me, but I do distinctly remember one of the loadmasters calling out, or maybe it was just being dramatic, but it's hot LZ, hot LZ. And then starting to hear the sort of clack clack of, you know, rounds going off and rounds being fired, incoming and outgoing, and feeling that helicopter start to sway and lurch. And everyone's sort of, you know, trying to grab onto the man next to them. And then it coming in for that landing, the door going to being, I think the door was already down. The door was already down. Of course it was. And then just seeing that orange haze and just being told go and running into it. Speaker 3 (8:31) Yeah, I didn't I didn't expect to be leading off with this I thought I'd start with the piracy just thinking about it as giving me a little bit of a heart palpitations but yeah, I I had like a Almost like a I was on top of the fire support tower for a lot of the battle and I saw some pretty cool stuff. I remember seeing there was this one wood line called Wombat Wood. The paras had christened it, or the unit before had christened it, because they used to use these recall-less rifles known as wombats from that particular place. And I swear I saw one of those French Mirage jets, the thing that has like a delta dagger type Speaker 2 (9:14) wing Speaker 3 (9:14) shape, dropping a light. I'm not even sure they were in Afghanistan at the time, but that's what I remember. And it flew over that tree line and dropped cluster bombs and seeing them crackle and burst like firecrackers, like fireworks. That was pretty cool. And then one guy taking pot shots at us from around a wall and just seeing a mortar, an 81 mortar dropped right on him and just seeing that disappear where he was, disappear in a cloud of smoke. And, you know. you know hearing rpgs coming overhead chinese 107s being fired running for cover falling down a staircase and landing at the bottom in a pilot you know in a disgusting pile of snot with a with a reporter i think who was actually from the sun at the time and and then there was even like some guy who was doing a a camera piece on the rooftop to a news channel with a cameraman behind almost like um full metal jacket again And I just happened to be in the background. And I thought, I'm going to turn and look at the camera. I'm going to turn and look at the camera and give it a thousand yards there. So I did. And that must have been broadcast. Because although I'd been lying to my dad saying, no, I'm all right, I'm safe on, I'm on Camp Bastion. My aunt saw it and said, I've seen Dave, I've seen him there. He's not on Camp Bastion anymore. He's been sent to the front Speaker 2 (10:32) line. Oh, my God. Speaker 3 (10:34) But yeah, there was that. Speaker 3 (10:37) Yeah, seeing the Paras, man, they'd been there for almost their whole tour. And their uniforms were worn and faded. They all had beards. They were tanned. And we were just, you know, all our gear was fresh out of the stores. Not a speck of dirt or dust on it. Every man was shaven. And then, I know, I guess, you know, two months later, we must have looked kind of like they did. Because, well, you can see in the picture I had it. Had a good old operational beard going there. Speaker 2 (11:09) Yeah, yeah, your starter set. Speaker 3 (11:11) Yeah. But, yeah, it was some pretty wild experiences. But, yeah, it was, I'm not being funny, but within the first 72 hours of getting on the ground. and talking to the interpreters. I almost call them Terps again. I know it's kind of a pseudo-derogatory term for them, but yeah, talking to them and having a shura with the locals, of which, of course, I wasn't invited because I was a lowly Marine. I was the officers who would do that. But you could see the different types of people coming to the shura. You could see Afghans who were clearly Taliban, marking your positions, calculating your numbers. Speaker 3 (11:57) And the hate was just rising off them, almost like a shimmer, like a heat haze that you see on a road on a hot day. And then you could see locals or elders and local leaders who were just in the middle trying to... trying to figure out a way for everything to get done with as least hassle as possible. And so it was like the three types that I came across. Those who were just telling you what they thought you wanted to hear, those who hated you with a passion and wanted to see you dead, and those who would just go along to get along. And yeah, I'd been on the ground 72 hours and I thought, I don't think this is going to work. And 2021 was rough, man. I believe you did a tour of Gannis as well. Much Speaker 2 (12:45) earlier, like 04, 05. Speaker 3 (12:48) Yeah. And it was a foregone conclusion, I believe. I mean, I'm not just being smart about it. I do remember thinking that at the time. And like watching a train wreck in slow motion, final conclusion being it was 2021, right? And Speaker 2 (13:03) it Speaker 3 (13:03) fell. That was... Speaker 2 (13:05) 21 or 22? Yeah, 21. Yeah. Speaker 3 (13:08) That was rough to see it happen. Speaker 3 (13:12) Yeah, I'm trying to make a rule for myself. If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. So, you know, we all know. Speaker 3 (13:21) We all know the school that were there. So let's just draw a line under it and move on. Speaker 2 (13:26) And when you got back from Afghanistan, were you pretty much dead set on getting out of the Royal Marines at that point? Speaker 3 (13:34) Well, yeah, the Royal Marines made a huge mistake in losing me when they sent me on a scuba course in Egypt. And I'd been trying to figure out what do I want to do when I get out of the Corps? Am I going to stay for four years, five years, whatever? And then they sent me on this scuba course. And I had like one of the best times of my life in this resort called Hurghada while we were doing a couple of paddy courses. And I was like, well, that's it. I'm going to be a scuba instructor when I get out. That's that is that is all I aspired to living by the sea in the sunshine and teaching scuba diving to pretty girls in bikinis. I figured there was no higher calling in life. And, yeah, I made plans. Probably not. an internship lined up in Gibraltar so as soon as I got out I could use my post-operational tour leave to get on that and get going. So yeah when I got out I spent the summer there first training as an instructor and then working and taking people out diving and working as a bouncer at a couple of bars and clubs in Gibraltar itself. I was living on a dilapidated yacht that legend had it was owned by a former London gangster. I don't know if he really was or not, but he would come out every now and again the rest of the time. It was myself and a bunch of young people, backpackers from Australia, Europe, living on this yacht in the marina. They called it a party boat. We had a great time, loved diving, loved everything about it. It was the best. post-operational sort of decompression you go through and yeah one of the best summers of my life um did that and uh at the end of it i was like you know i really miss having a that 360 challenge that's a challenge to mind body and soul that first to a certain extent you get from uniform service and so i came up with this plan to try and ski the length of norway uh it's an accepted sort of um Speaker 3 (15:38) Norwegian challenge. They call it Norgepar Langs, where you start at the southern tip of Norway, and then you ski. I thought it was 1,800 miles, but I read I was researching it before doing this, and I saw someone say it's actually 1,600, so not as much as I thought. But it took me 122 days in the snow, and yeah, I got there. I didn't think I would. There was a few things along the way that almost prevented me from doing it. Speaker 3 (16:07) Yeah, I had a huge sense of accomplishment from that and thought, right, now it's time for another season of scuba diving. Went to a place called Antiparos, which is in the Cyclades Islands in Greece. Had a great summer. Another one of the best of my life. Beautiful island. And if anyone is considering going on a diving holiday, Antiparos in Greece is a great destination. It's a really small island. It's only got like a... a summer popula- a winter population of 500. So it's much smaller and intimate than some of your bigger places like Naxos or um, uh, what's the one where you- never mind. Um, and uh, yeah, great diving, great little town, nice tavernas, nice bars, nice square. Had a great time, relaxed, and then got back home to my dad's house and said to myself, right, I'm in the mood for another challenge. And so I- I had this sort of embryonic idea to try and do something with the skills that the core had given me to do something positive that was beyond politics. Because, of course, Afghan left a little bit of a bitter taste in the mouth, you could say. And I'd seen a few years before about how there was a sort of poaching wars going on in East Africa with, you know, some former military guys trying to fight the poachers who were... trying to kill the rhinos and the elephants for the ivory and the horn. And I thought that would be a cool thing to do. And then I heard through the grapevine that a figure from my service, who is going to crop up a few times in this story, was involved in that. And this figure was the guy who was the colonel in charge of the Commander Training Center when I passed through. A very... charismatic and inspiring man a huge man as well um and he gives you your speech or he gave to my intake the speech on your first day after you sign the form and you know pledge your whatever to whatever uh and um and then he was there at the end of the 30 miler and gave me the green beret when i completed that and again when i passed out and uh you know he was a kind of a legendary figure in the British commandos. And he had also been in the SBS. And I believe he went on to command the SBS and the SES, but I'm not sure. At least one of them, maybe both. But who's counting at that stage? He was a very accomplished soldier and kind of a legend in the British commandos and British Special Forces. And anyone from my generation who's been through will instantly know who I'm talking about. But I'm not going to mention... by name here. Please edit it out if I do. So yeah, I'd heard he was involved in anti-poaching work. I'd heard he'd been involved in East Africa and in the Congo. Speaker 3 (19:10) And I was able to dig up his number from somewhere and gave him a call out of the blue, as you do to, you know, a former commandant of Limston, who you probably haven't seen in however many years and has no reason to remember you. But he said, no, I do remember you, which I thought was a lie at the time. But if we get the time later, I'll circle back to why that probably was. Speaker 2 (19:35) Because you got in trouble and you had to go to his office? Speaker 3 (19:38) Oh, I was in trouble enough, but not for that. Not that time. And I said, hey, I'm, you know, Marine so-and-so, you gave me a green beret one time and, you know, done this and that. And I heard you were involved in anti-boaching and I'd really like to get involved. What are the options? What are the opportunities, please? And he was like, yeah, I'd probably hook you up with that. um you know the sort of thing you'd be doing is managing a team of 50 rangers privately employed and you know half dozen land cruisers covering a conservancy the size of however many thousand miles up in this uh district or this country and uh yeah yeah send me your cv and uh i'll see what i can do i'll be in touch and i was like wow i can't believe it i was just talking to you know papa green beret here and uh he actually was you know didn't just put down the phone on me or laugh in my face so i sent off the cv and you know took a moment and my heart was fluttering a bit and he called me back 15 minutes later and he said i know you've never done anything like this uh but would you be open to doing a job on the private security side Speaker 3 (20:52) Now, when I'd left the military, I'd known about guys going to PSD details, Iraq, Afghanistan, the money to be made. I had heard the stories. And they even sent one of them back to lecture us on why not to do it, obviously, so that they could keep up their attention. Speaker 2 (21:10) But Speaker 3 (21:10) yeah, not that I put much faith in that. And I'd said to myself, I'm never going to do that. I'm never going to go private security. It sounds dramatic, but I said, I'm never working with a gun in my hand again. So, yeah, I know I've become a hypocrite. Who doesn't? But wanting to work in anti-poaching would obviously be breaking that rule. But I'll have to sort of... Speaker 3 (21:38) stretch my head and conscience around that somehow. So yeah, I didn't think I would ever get involved in private security. Promised myself I wouldn't, and here was the opportunity. So Colonel said to me, can you be on a plane tonight? Speaker 3 (21:55) And, you know, if you go to Heathrow right now and present yourself at the check-in desk for this airline, say your name, there will be a ticket for you. And, you know, obviously I'll say, what's the job? And he said, well, I can't tell you until you get here. Speaker 2 (22:09) Yeah, should I pack a coat or a Hawaiian shirt? What are we doing here? Yeah, he Speaker 3 (22:13) said it is going to be taking a package from one location to another, exchanging that package for another package, and bringing it back out to another location. And if you get here and you don't want the job, I'll give you 5,000 and a plane ticket back. That'll be the end of it. As in, you know, once I tell you the details of what you'll really be doing, and you're like, no, no, time out, I don't want this. You'll get 5,000 and a plane ticket back. Fine. If, for whatever reason, we get to the launch point and it's cancelled, that'll be 10,000. If we get to the exchange and it's unsuccessful, that will be 15. And if the exchange is successful, you'll get 20. And it's going to be approximately three weeks' work. And I was just blown away by this. 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Go to quince.com slash house for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash house for free shipping and 365 day returns. quince.com slash house. Speaker 3 (27:31) And bye. my inner 12 year old was sort of saying to me like, I knew this was going to happen one day. I knew it. But at the same time, I was like, this is real. This isn't a movie. You know, why? What do they want with you? What skills do you have? that no one else could fulfill because this guy has got to have a dozen former regiment former Speaker 1 (27:54) pool or former Speaker 3 (27:56) um hereford guys he could call on why do they want you what like what do you bring to the table you sure you got one tour in a dream right but that is not what anyway i had a lot of misgivings i was concerned i thought maybe i was going to be roped in to be a patsy or a fall guy for something I told my dad and shared my misgivings with him and he was like, yeah, I know I've got the same misgivings, but if I was a young man like you, I'd probably go as well. Speaker 3 (28:31) So, but the main thing that decided it for me was I thought the colonel would not betray one of his Marines. Because one of the main things that, one of the main takeaways you would get if you met the man was his integrity. And that kind of shone through in everything he said and did. And I thought there's no way he would knowingly or willingly betray one of his Marines. He's not setting me up to be the fall guy. This is genuine and I don't understand why or what for yet. So yeah, I got on the plane. I got on the train, got to Heathrow. And a part of me had been saying, no, this is a bite. Someone's putting a leg here. A few minutes after you sent your CV, he called up Paul and asked, do you remember this guy? Do you Speaker 2 (29:14) remember this guy? Speaker 3 (29:15) Yeah, I know. It's Dave. Pull his leg. Get him on a bite. So I was genuinely surprised when I got to the check-in desk and said my name and there was actually a ticket there. And I got on the plane. Obviously, I didn't sleep on the flight. I remember looking down. It was a night flight as it flew over Africa and seeing some of those little lights below and thinking, you know, this is like deepest, darkest Africa. Like, what's that book where the guy's going down the river? to meet with... You Speaker 2 (29:49) mean Apocalypse Now? Speaker 3 (29:51) sorry Speaker 2 (29:51) apocalypse now apocalypse Speaker 3 (29:53) now but it was based on a book called heart of darkness yeah yeah yeah i'd read heart of darkness and you know darkest africa and all the sort of mystery and and fear that's associated with that now with the marines i had been on jungle training in west africa um when i was recce troop and so i'd spent you know six weeks there but when you're sort of enfolded in the bosom of the the military, you're protected. You know that if you're a casualty, they'll get you out. They'll get you back one way or another. You have all the logistical support, the command support, the communications, the QRF. Everything is there. Well, there's a huge apparatus there to protect you and help you achieve your mission. And now I was going private, something I'd never contemplated doing before. And I'd just done it at the drop of a hat and sold my principles as well. For a considerable sum of money in 2008, that was quite a lot. That was enough to pay off my student loan and buy a motorcycle. Yeah, so... Speaker 3 (30:58) Anyway, this is what was going through my head and and the colonel said to me when you get to the airport There'll be a guy at the you know, when you come out the terminal, there'll be a guy with Two numbers on a piece of paper four and two just go with him. All right This is like some sort of spy stuff. It's like I've been dropped in the middle of Jason Bourne here and I'm just the comedy sidekick. That's kind of how I felt at the time. So, yeah, it was kind of terrifying. And the guy was there at the airport. I got in his car. I said, where are we going? He said, we're going to the colonel's house. So that's where we went. And being in, you know, a West African, sorry, an East African capital, it was, you know, the sights and smells. Have you ever been to Africa? Speaker 2 (31:48) West Africa, not East. Speaker 3 (31:50) Yeah. Well, you know, burning trash has the same smell wherever you go. Speaker 2 (31:55) And Speaker 3 (31:56) the call to prayer, that's, you know, a distinctive part of it. It's very different when you're in Asia and the Middle East to when you're in Africa. They have a different cadence, if you could call it that. And yeah, it was kind of overwhelming seeing Giraffe right outside the airport as well on the drive. And got to the colonel's compound, I should say, house and met him. And yeah, he was just as imposing as I remembered, except he now had a beard. Speaker 3 (32:28) And he put me up in his guest house on his property. And he took me to his office and he explained what the job was. It was taking ransom to Somalia and coming back out with not one, but two ships that had been held hostage by the pirates for the last couple of months. And, you know, he confirmed the terms. I think I had an NDA to sign. I think I had... an insurance policy to sign, which had a kidnap and ransom clause to it, which said that there would be 250,000 in ransom if I was taken hostage, that would be paid in order to get me out. And yeah, it was shown to this guest house. It was a pretty nice place, beautiful setting, which I became very familiar with in later years. Speaker 3 (33:24) the area rather than the house itself. And yeah, at a certain point, he came out from the house with a couple of beers and we sat in his garden having beers, me and the former head of UKSF, which was, well, you know, meeting your heroes. It was pretty heady stuff, you know, just meeting him or speaking to him, but now being taken into his circle of... Trust and you know him telling me about the job and and he did confess, you know, we are we are a bit under gunned There are some risks involved but you know, we've done this once before And it went okay, and we're hoping to do it again with the same formula. And later that night, I actually was invited to dinner with his family. His kids were there, his wife was there. And after that, the kids went to bed, and the three of us, the colonel, his wife, we sat out on the grass, saw sunset. They were drinking wine. I think I had a beer. Speaker 3 (34:33) And yeah, he really, you could say, took me into his family and made me feel very privileged to sort of experience that hospitality. And yeah, we talked about a lot of stuff. Tell you, at one point, and this is an insight into the man himself, at one point he went back to the house to get another bottle of wine. And his wife, who was a very, very beautiful, graceful lady, Speaker 3 (35:01) It was just the two of us for five minutes. And she said to me, I don't suppose you can tell us where you're going, can you? Because I guess she knew something was coming. You know, she must have known that the colonel was going to be away for a few days. And then she said, I probably don't want to know, do I? And that one thing kind of illustrated to me how... the Colonel, with him, his larger than life personality, his sort of insane level of confidence and self-assurance, which you