Friday Fusions – Lost Crops of the Incas – Part 3 – 3909

The Survival Podcast

This episode explores the botanical treasures of the Inca Empire, focusing on forgotten crops that could revolutionize modern agriculture. T

Key takeaways

• The Rocoto pepper uses capsaicin to trigger the TRPV1 receptor, tricking the brain into sensing heat.
• Zombo squash is a perennial variety that can be stored for up to two years without refrigeration.

Main topics

• Inca agricultural engineering
• Capsaicin and pepper biology

Notable quotes

The pepper is literally picking the lock on the human nervous system.

Conclusion

Preserving the genetic heritage of Andean crops is essential for creat

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:02) Welcome Speaker 2 (0:19) to Friday Fusions. I am Jack Spierko, the host of the Survival Podcast, one of the longest running podcasts available today. First launched in 2008 with almost 4,000 episodes published since launching. Friday Fusions is a blend of my input and the virtual AI hosts at Google's Gemini Notebook, formerly known as Notebook LM. That means that most of this episode will be done by the AI hosts. Now, if you want more of me, I still publish four episodes a week. These include my Monday Mayhem episodes every Monday, a Tuesday Just Jack type episode drilling into one specific subject, a Wednesday interview show, and a Thursday expert counsel show. All of these, except the expert counsel shows, are also available in video, and we do those as live stream episodes that you can tune into as well. For more on that, just visit my website, thesurvivalpodcast.com, or just search for The Survival Podcast on any podcast platform. Some things to know about the AI portion of this podcast. Sometimes, guys, AI makes mistakes or even hallucinates. I do try to make sure all the things in these podcasts are accurate, but please verify anything you act on before you act on it. Number two, sometimes AI may pronounce something in a strange way or different from what is used in common language. Just know I publish full show notes at thesurvivalpodcast.com, and if there's like a list of things or plant types or anything like that, I will generally list them in the notes so that you can look them up and learn more about them and know exactly what they were talking about. Just go to the website and find the episode. If the episode's a bit old, by the time you listen to it, it, just use the website search feature and enter the episode number in the search box and you should be able to find it very easily. The show notes number three will also contain links to the source files I used to create the episodes. While I don't give away my exact prompts, I do provide the source files so you can use them to create your own podcasts, presentations, or even videos using AI as well. Number four, you will hear the host at the beginning state what lends their viewing the source material through. That is a direct result of my prompting and a great way to really unlock all of Notebook's potential. Just know once again, these are simply AI virtual voice entities and these are assigned roles that I gave them, not reality. Now sit back and enjoy today's topic. Speaker 4 (3:11) Picture this, right? You are standing at an elevation of maybe three or four kilometers high up in the Andes Mountains. Speaker 3 (3:19) That's high. The air is pretty thin up there. Speaker 4 (3:22) Oh, incredibly thin. The air is crisp and it's so cold it practically bites your lungs. And you look around and you just see this landscape of incredible geographic and, well, cultural diversity. Speaker 2 (3:36) Yeah. Speaker 4 (3:36) You've got these towering, jagged peaks covered in snow. and they just plunge right into these deep intermontane valleys. Where Speaker 3 (3:44) the microclimates just, they shift dramatically, right? Speaker 4 (3:47) Exactly. With every few hundred feet of descent, it's a totally different world. And everywhere you look, you see these ancient terraces carved right into the steep, you know, seemingly impossible mountain slopes. Speaker 3 (4:00) Engineering marvels, really. Speaker 4 (4:01) It is. You are in the heart of the former Inca Empire, a civilization that, I mean, think about this, without iron? Without wheels and without draft animals, they managed to feed 15 million people. Speaker 3 (4:14) It's just staggering when you really break down the math of it. Speaker 4 (4:18) Right. And they didn't just survive. They thrived using this absolute treasure trove of crops that are, to this very day, largely unknown to the rest of the world. So today, we are unpacking the botanical vault of that empire. Speaker 3 (4:33) Yeah, and we're using a... Pretty amazing guide for this, right? Speaker 4 (4:37) We are. We're using the 1989 National Research Council publication, Lost Crops of the Incas. Speaker 3 (4:43) Which is, I mean, it really is a seminal document. When we look at the agricultural system of the Andes, we're looking at an incredibly sophisticated mastery of the environment. Speaker 4 (4:52) Yeah, they really knew what they were doing. They Speaker 3 (4:53) did. The indigenous peoples there didn't fight the mountains. They utilized the thousands of distinct microclimates to cultivate. Just a staggering variety of foods and fibers and medicines. And Speaker 4 (5:05) exploring that variety is basically our mission today. We're looking at a wealth of forgotten crops that sustained a massive pre-Columbian civilization. Right. As a cultural anthropologist, I'm just fascinated by how these plants were woven into the social fabric. You know, how they're used today and how they define the identity of the Andean people. It's Speaker 3 (5:23) not just history, it's Speaker 4 (5:24) living culture. Exactly. But we aren't just looking backward. We want to explore how these plants' unique genetic traits could absolutely revolutionize modern mainstream agriculture. Speaker 3 (5:35) Oh, the potential is massive. Speaker 4 (5:37) And specifically, because we know you love to get your hands dirty, we're going to look at how small farmers and backyard growers can utilize these exact crops right now. Speaker 3 (5:48) Yeah, and from my perspective as a botanist who researches lost and undiscovered plants, This is really about taking ancient, highly adapted botanical wisdom and finding its crucial place in our modern, rapidly changing agricultural landscape. Speaker 4 (6:01) Because things are changing fast. Speaker 3 (6:02) Very fast. And the genetics held in these mountains are quite literally irreplaceable. Speaker 4 (6:07) Definitely. Now, you are deeply embedded in this subject with us, so we need to establish exactly where we are in our journey. Right. Let's give some context. This is the third and final deep dive in our series on the lost crops of the Incas. So if you've been with us, you know how we operate. But we want to state clearly for you that this deep dive is published on Fridays as a supplement to Jack Spierko's long-running show, The Survival Podcast. Speaker 3 (6:32) Exactly. These supplements are known as Friday Fusions, which is, well, it's a unique and highly effective format for distilling massive amounts of information. Speaker 4 (6:40) Yeah, it really is. They blend AI creation with human input. Right. And the human input comes directly from Jack. He uses careful prompting and publicly available documents like the massive, you know, hundreds of pages long agricultural study we're dissecting today to create the AI portion of the audio you're listening to right now. Speaker 3 (7:00) It's just a brilliant way to synthesize complex, dense information into an engaging format. Speaker 4 (7:06) Totally. And for this exploration, we are acting as your expert guides. I'll be putting on my cultural anthropologist hat, focusing on ethnobotany. how these plants intertwine with human history, societal structures, and daily life. Speaker 3 (7:21) And I'll be taking the role of the botanist, specifically looking at the physiological and biological mechanisms of these lost plants. Speaker 4 (7:28) The science stuff. Speaker 3 (7:29) The science stuff, exactly. Researching how their unique adaptations can fulfill modern human needs. We're going to spend a good five to ten minutes on each major vegetable, fruit, and nut crop. Speaker 4 (7:39) And we're going in the exact sequence they appear in the source text. So, grab your notebook. You know, get comfortable. Settle in. Yeah, settle in. We are starting with vegetables, and specifically the vibrant, fiery, and deeply cultural world of peppers. Speaker 3 (7:54) Ah, peppers. Now, Speaker 4 (7:56) as an anthropologist, I have to correct a common misconception right out of the gate. The Andes is the true original homeland of peppers. Speaker 3 (8:04) A lot of people don't realize that. Speaker 4 (8:05) They really don't. All the chili and sweet peppers that have conquered the global palette from Indian curries to Szechuan stir fries. They all trace their deep ancestral roots back to this specific region. Yep. But the Incas and their descendants have kept some of the absolute best, most complex varieties to themselves. Take the ricotto, for example, or the tree chili. Oh, Speaker 3 (8:28) the ricotto is fascinating. Speaker 4 (8:29) Right. Like, if you were imagining a little green jalapeno bush, just erase that from your mind. The ricotto has stunning purple and white flowers, fuzzy leaves that look almost like a violet, and these... Wild-looking, jet-black, wrinkled seeds. The Speaker 3 (8:45) seeds are so distinct. Speaker 4 (8:46) They are. The Incas prized the rocoto, and today you'll find it dominating local markets, often served hollowed out and stuffed with savory ground meat and cheese. Speaker 3 (8:56) That sounds amazing. Speaker 4 (8:58) It's delicious. But even more fascinating to me are the wild ulupicas, because these aren't even cultivated in neat rows. Speaker 3 (9:06) No, they're wild foragers. Speaker 4 (9:07) Exactly. They are literally gathered by locals out in the wild, often by women and children foraging on the outskirts of villages. It's incredible to witness how something that Western agriculture might just dismiss as a weed becomes this highly prized, culturally ingrained culinary staple. And Speaker 3 (9:25) they command a high price, right? Speaker 4 (9:26) Oh, premium prices in the local markets. It's wild. Speaker 3 (9:29) Well, the cultural reverence for the Ulupika makes perfect sense when you look at the underlying biology, particularly regarding capsaicin. Speaker 4 (9:37) Right, the heat. Speaker 3 (9:39) Yeah, capsaicin is the chemical compound responsible for the heat or pungency in peppers. From a botanical standpoint, it is an extraordinary evolutionary defense mechanism. How Speaker 4 (9:49) so? Speaker 3 (9:50) Well, it's colorless, flavorless, and odorless. And here's the crazy part, it doesn't actually burn you. Wait, Speaker 4 (9:56) really? It definitely feels like burning. It Speaker 3 (9:59) feels like it, but no. Instead, when you bite into an Ulupica or a Rocoto, the capsaicin chemically binds to a very specific receptor in your mouth, the TRPV1 receptor. Speaker 4 (10:10) Okay, TRPV1. Speaker 3 (10:12) Right, and this receptor's actual job is to detect physical heat, like a hot cup of coffee, to prevent you from burning your tissue. Speaker 4 (10:20) So the pepper is literally picking the lock on the human nervous system. Like, it's tricking your body into thinking it's on fire? Precisely. Speaker 3 (10:28) The capsaicin molecule fits perfectly into that TRPV1 receptor, forcing it open. The receptor sends a massive pain and heat signal to your brain. Oh, Speaker 4 (10:38) wow. Speaker 3 (10:39) And your brain, completely fooled, responds by trying to cool the body down and flush out the thermal threat. Speaker 4 (10:44) So that's why you sweat when you eat spicy food. Speaker 3 (10:47) That is exactly the physiological reason why you start sweating profusely, your mouth waters to dilute the chemical, your nose runs, and your gastric flow increases. It is a brilliant biological illusion. That Speaker 4 (10:59) is just wild. And Speaker 3 (11:00) it's incredibly potent, too. A single drop of pure capsaicin diluted in 100,000 drops of water still produces a persistent, measurable burning sensation on the tongue. Speaker 4 (11:10) But humans are masochists, right? We... Like, we are the only mammals that actively seek out that pain response for culinary pleasure. We Speaker 3 (11:19) really are. Speaker 4 (11:19) Because birds, I understand, don't have that receptor, which is why they can eat the seeds and disperse them without feeling the heat. Speaker 3 (11:26) Exactly. Birds are the intended dispersal mechanism. Mammals, with our grinding teeth that destroy seeds, are the intended target of the chemical defense. Speaker 4 (11:34) So it's trying to keep us away. Speaker 3 (11:36) Right. If we connect this biological quirk to modern needs, capsaicin's ability to overwhelm that specific nerve receptor is highly valuable. Speaker 4 (11:45) Oh, like in medicine? Speaker 3 (11:46) Yeah. Modern medicine uses topical capsaicin creams. Because it continuously stimulates the pain receptor, it eventually depletes the nerve supply of substance P, which is a neurotransmitter that sends pain signals. Speaker 4 (11:58) Wait, so it exhausts the nerve? Speaker 3 (12:01) Exactly. Once depleted, the nerve just can't send pain signals anymore, providing relief for things like shingles, psoriasis, and severe muscle aches. Speaker 4 (12:09) That is fascinating. Using a pain inducer to exhaust the pain response. Speaker 3 (12:14) It's very counterintuitive. Speaker 4 (12:16) It is. But let's bring you back to the fields. If Bolivia is the absolute epicenter of pepper genetics, what does that massive diversity mean for the future of global agriculture? Because, I mean... The bell peppers we buy in the supermarket seem pretty uniform and standard. And Speaker 3 (12:32) that uniformity is exactly why the global commercial pepper industry is in perpetual danger. Speaker 4 (12:37) Really? Danger of what? Speaker 3 (12:40) Well, when you walk into a supermarket and see piles of identical bell peppers, you are looking at a massive genetic bottleneck. They are incredibly vulnerable to diseases. Speaker 4 (12:51) Oh, because they're all basically clones. Speaker 3 (12:54) Right. Specifically, soil-borne fungal root diseases and root-knot nematodes completely devastate commercial pepper fields globally. But these wild Andean peppers, like the Ulupicas, have spent thousands of years co-evolving with those exact pathogens in harsh mountain soils. Speaker 4 (13:13) So they're immune. Speaker 3 (13:14) They possess vital dominant genes for complete resistance. Yeah. If we could successfully transfer those genes, we could save the multi-billion dollar global bell pepper industry from catastrophic crop losses and, you know, drastically reduce the need for toxic chemical soil fumigants. Speaker 4 (13:31) When you put it like that, it sounds like an obvious move, just crossbreed them. But I'm guessing it's not that simple. Otherwise, it would already be done, right? It is incredibly difficult. Speaker 3 (13:41) The primary breeding challenge is biological incompatibility. Ah, Speaker 1 (13:45) okay. Speaker 3 (13:45) Yeah, these wild Andean species fall into distinct genetic groups. Because they've been separated by geography and altitude for millennia, their genetic structures have drifted. They just don't... freely or easily hybridize with the common Capsicum annuum species we grow today. So Speaker 4 (14:00) what happens if you try? Speaker 3 (14:01) When breeders try to cross them, the resulting seeds are often sterile, or the embryos abort before they can even mature. It requires advanced, meticulous breeding techniques like embryo rescue in a laboratory setting to manually keep the hybrid tissue alive long enough to unlock that genetic vault. Speaker 4 (14:18) Okay, so the commercial scale is a massive laboratory challenge. Let's bring this down to the individual listener. For the backyard grower, how do we tackle this? Can someone listening right now actually grow these ancient Inca varieties? Speaker 3 (14:31) Absolutely, and it is highly rewarding. If you want to grow the rocoto, you're in luck if you live in a temperate zone. Speaker 4 (14:38) Good to know. Speaker 3 (14:38) Because it evolved at high elevations, it's the most cold-tolerant of all cultivated peppers. It'll thrive and set fruit in cool, foggy summers where standard jalapenos or bell peppers would just sit there and refuse to grow. Speaker 4 (14:51) It's awesome for northern climates. Speaker 3 (14:52) It is, but... you have to understand its limits. It will not survive lowland, humid tropical heat. It literally cooks in its own juices. Oh, Speaker 4 (15:00) wow. And Speaker 3 (15:01) despite its cold tolerance, it cannot take a hard, freezing frost. Its tissues will just burst. Speaker 4 (15:06) Okay, so frost is still the enemy. And what about sourcing them? Because I've never seen a rocoto seedling at, like, a big box hardware store. Speaker 3 (15:15) No, you definitely won't find them there. You will need to seek out specialty heirloom seed catalogs online. Okay. Look for capsicum pubescence, which is the botanical name referencing its fuzzy leaves. Alternatively, if you have a vibrant specialty Latin American market nearby, you can sometimes find imported fresh rocoto fruits right in the produce section. Speaker 4 (15:34) Oh, and just save the seeds. Speaker 3 (15:36) Yep. You can buy the pepper. extract those striking black seeds, dry them on a paper towel for a week, and just start them in potting soil yourself. Speaker 4 (15:43) Okay, I have to push back a little here, thinking specifically about the wild Ulapicas. Sure, go ahead. You talked about extracting their disease resistance for commercial bell peppers, but I look at the Ulapicas like truffles. They are wild, they are highly prized, and their entire cultural identity in the Andes is tied up in the fact that they are untamed and gathered by hand. That's true. So if we bring them into the lab, aggressively breed them and commercialize them into neat little rows for export, don't we risk ruining their unique fiery appeal? Like, are we going to just breed the wildness and the culture right out of them? Speaker 3 (16:21) It's a very real Speaker 2 (16:22) concern. Speaker 3 (16:23) I mean, commercialization almost always selects for uniformity, prolonged shelf life, and milder, less challenging flavors to appeal to a mass market. Speaker 1 (16:31) Right. Speaker 3 (16:32) You see exactly what happened with the modern supermarket tomato. It looks perfect, but it tastes like wet cardboard because we bred out the volatile flavor compounds in favor of a thick skin for shipping. Speaker 4 (16:41) Exactly. The Speaker 3 (16:42) challenge for botanists and breeders is targeted introjection, capturing only the disease resistance and hardiness of the Ulupica without diluting its incredible aromatic pungency or turning it into something it's not. But you are right to be skeptical. Modern agriculture has a pretty poor track record of preserving the soul of wild foods. Speaker 4 (17:03) Yeah, I think some things just belong to the mountains, you know. But I understand the need to protect our global food supply. It's a tension that just doesn't have an easy answer. It Speaker 3 (17:13) really doesn't. Speaker 4 (17:14) Let's shift our focus from the intense heat of peppers to something entirely different, but equally vital. The squashes and their relatives. Speaker 3 (17:22) Ah, yes. Speaker 4 (17:23) Now, cucurbits, the family that includes pumpkins, squashes, and gourds, are central to indigenous American agriculture all the way from Canada down to Patagonia. But the Andes have some real cultural oddities that just break the mold. They definitely do. We have the zapalo, which is a massive winter squash with incredibly dense flesh that the Incas systematically spread throughout their empire as a staple carbohydrate. A powerhouse crop. Absolutely. Then there is the zombo. What's anthropologically funny about the zombo is that genetic tracing shows it's actually an ancient import from Mexico. But the Andean people embraced it so completely that it became a cornerstone of their high-altitude diets. It fit right in. It did. But the one that really catches my eye as a cultural artifact is the casa banana. Oh, Speaker 3 (18:12) the casa banana. Speaker 4 (18:14) It looks like a long cylindrical dark red or purple squash, but they don't just grow it for food. The mature fruits are kept around the house as a fragrant air freshener. Speaker 3 (18:23) That's so unique. Speaker 4 (18:24) Right. They emit this powerful sweet aroma that smells like a blend of ripe melon and peach. And people literally use them to perfume their kitchens, their closets, and their clothing. Imagine growing your own biological air fresheners instead of plugging chemicals into an outlet. Speaker 3 (18:41) The Casa Banana is a delightful novelty, and its volatile aromatic compounds are certainly interesting. But biologically speaking, the Mexican import you mentioned, the Zombo, is the true marvel here. Really? Oh, yeah. Import. Oh, yeah. It defies what we think we know about commercial squashes. First of all, it is the only perennial among commercial cucurbits. Speaker 4 (19:01) Meaning it doesn't die