The Perilous Fight: Colin Kaepernick On The True Costs Of Conviction

The Rich Roll Podcast

Colin Kaepernick joins Rich Roll to discuss his new memoir, 'The Perilous Fight,' reflecting on the decade since his 2016 NFL protest. He de

Key takeaways

• Kaepernick discusses how growing up in a predominantly white neighborhood forced him to develop an early sense of resilience against racial slurs and isolation.
• He highlights the 'undeniable' strategy, inspired by athletes like Allen Iverson, as a way to resist cultural assimilation in the NFL.

Main topics

• The Perilous Fight memoir
• NFL racial dynamics and assimilation

Notable quotes

Be true to who you say you are.

Conclusion

A powerful exploration of how principled conviction can shape both ind

Transcript preview

Speaker 4 (0:00) There is a big difference between a wellness trend and a program with over 40 clinical trials behind it. Studied at Stanford, Yale, the Mayo Clinic, Prolon is the second thing. What if you could put the body into a fasting state while still eating food? And the answer that they arrived at is the five-day fasting mimicking diet. Five days of pre-portioned plant-based food labeled by day. Zero guesswork. And the only nutrition program clinically shown to trigger autophagy in humans. That's your body's Nobel Prize winning cellular cleanup process, clearing out damaged cells and driving renewal, while also targeting fat and protecting muscle. Run it three months in a row, and it's clinically shown to reduce biological age by an average of two and a half years. Two and a half years! For me, Prolon is the closest thing to a longevity intervention with real clinical research behind it. It's the tool I trust for this kind of work. So if you're ready for your own reset, and you should be, for a limited time, Prolon is offering all of you guys 15 % off site-wide plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe to their five-day program. Just visit ProlonLife.com slash Rich Roll. Speaker 3 (1:20) A surprising amount of people have come up and been like, I hated you. I've seen what you've done over the years. And you were right. Speaker 1 (1:29) Colin Kaepernick, he's the San Francisco 49ers quarterback. Knelt instead of standing during the national anthem. A gesture to protest discrimination against minorities in the U.S. Speaker 4 (1:38) Sparked both unity and outrage. The Speaker 3 (1:40) experiences navigating police, the experiences navigating racism, ultimately led up to that moment of protesting in 2016. Speaker 3 (1:50) Protesting to say police shouldn't kill black people was controversial. There were death threats, people trying Speaker 4 (1:57) to send bombs to the house. You're sharing these experiences that you haven't talked about before about what it was like to be you in a predominantly white neighborhood, racial slurs, etc. Like you had white parents who loved you but just couldn't understand this. Speaker 3 (2:12) I Speaker 4 (2:13) don't want people to ever have to go Speaker 3 (2:14) through that. But I also think those moments of struggle It built an internal resilience around that and also how you come out the other side. To me, Speaker 4 (2:25) you Speaker 3 (2:25) come out Speaker 4 (2:25) stronger. Is there still an aspiration or a possibility that you could return to the NFL as a quarterback? Speaker 4 (2:41) This is so cool, man. I'm so happy to meet you. I'm delighted to spend this time with you. Congratulations on the new book. It's just exciting for me to meet you. Speaker 3 (2:50) Oh, thank Speaker 4 (2:51) you. I'm Speaker 3 (2:51) excited as well. This is, I mean, it's a pleasure to be here. Speaker 4 (2:56) The book is sort of equal parts memoir and manifesto. And it's also a kind of primer on resilience. You see all these experiences that you have that have made you this resilient human being who is preparing himself to weather what you've had to weather. There are those two near-death experiences that you talk about. You spun out on black ice and almost went off a cliff. Speaker 4 (3:26) You were at gunpoint on the precipice of a double homicide, I guess, in college, right? Triple. Triple, yeah. Which left you with this sense of life being precious, but also maybe a fearlessness as well. And an additional degree of courage to kind of do the things that you've done. But what I really didn't know about you and learned a lot about. Speaker 4 (3:53) was the dynamic that you grew up in as a child. Like I knew that you grew up in Wisconsin and had white parents, et cetera. But the book just blasts you, you know, right from the get-go with like, here's what it was like when I was a kid and I was in fourth grade and these white kids like tied me to a rose tree, you know? Speaker 4 (4:12) racial slurs, et cetera, like right out of the gate, you're sharing these experiences that you haven't talked about before about what it was like to be you in a predominantly white neighborhood, not only on the receiving end of this kind of treatment consistently, you know, throughout your life, you share all of these stories. But I think the real important piece here is that You had parents who loved you, but just couldn't understand this and really didn't want to have the conversation and couldn't create a safe place for you. So you learned early and often that it wasn't safe to open up to these people who are charged with taking care of you, what you were experiencing. And so you had to develop this dual identity of who you were. And I interpret that as. as a unhealed childhood wound that I think explains so much about who you are and why you've made the decisions that you've made. Speaker 3 (5:16) It's an Speaker 4 (5:17) interesting Speaker 3 (5:17) dynamic to navigate. Speaker 3 (5:24) I look at it less as a dual identity, but more so an awareness that you have to navigate and understanding how you show up in different spaces. And that was one that I knew throughout my neighborhood, walking into my house, there were going to be certain parts of me that and how my blackness showed up, like there are going to be battles there. Speaker 3 (5:56) And I think it built an internal resilience around that of in constantly being in a position where you are having to defend who you are and just how you show up in a space. You get comfortable. Speaker 3 (6:15) feeling having this sense of isolation of like, oh, I'll have to figure this out by myself. I have to navigate this myself. Turlock does not have a significant black population. So there also weren't a lot of black mentors within the community that I was able to turn to. And I mean, the thing that I've learned looking back on all of the moments where there are racist attacks, Speaker 3 (6:47) I now look at those as moments that were opportunities to build resilience, build a level of focus, awareness. Speaker 3 (7:01) To be able to move forward and make sure that those aren't repeated and ultimately has gotten me to a space where regardless of what the situation is, I look at it as an opportunity. Now, maybe very uncomfortable opportunities, but it may be an opportunity to show our resilience, to be able to show who we are, to be able to get better, to be able to bring people along. and educate them in moments um but it on the other side of that scene success i think is something that has allowed me to take those and while while they are traumatic moments i don't have to accept them as something that were were just purely negative and i you know i don't want people to ever have to go through that Speaker 2 (7:56) but Speaker 3 (7:58) i also think those moments of struggle um They build and shape you and your character and also how you come out the other side. To me, you come out stronger, even in the worst situations. Speaker 4 (8:15) Somebody else who was reared in a similar set of circumstances might have made a different decision to assimilate, to go along, to get along. Speaker 4 (8:26) It sounds like maybe your parents would have preferred that for you. You know, what was it about you, do you think, reflecting back on that period of your life that made you decide to, you know, go in this other direction and really like, you know, honor your heritage in this really kind of strident way? Speaker 3 (8:46) I'm not sure if that is just like... innate personality of who I am. There's a little like Speaker 4 (8:54) punk rock, fuck you. Speaker 3 (8:56) And Speaker 4 (8:56) maybe that's because of some of the experiences that you had when you were a kid, but there's an anti-authoritarian streak that runs consistently through you. Speaker 3 (9:06) Well, I think it's that. I think it's also some of the competitive nature. Speaker 2 (9:12) I Speaker 3 (9:12) also think when you're in a space where just who you are is constantly challenged, Speaker 3 (9:21) You get to a place where it's like, well, the authority doesn't make sense. You're telling me who I am isn't acceptable. And that also gives me a space where, you know, looking at some of the leaders in the sports realm that I looked up to, Allen Iverson and Randy Moss and Ken Griffey Jr. All players that in their respective fields, like this is who I am and this is how I show up. And I'm also the best at what I do. Speaker 4 (9:58) Then you're undeniable. Speaker 3 (10:00) You become undeniable. You also become the space where, and I got to see it through them. And I felt like there was a direct correlation to what I was going through. You're undeniable at your sport. You're undeniable at your profession. Speaker 3 (10:19) But they were also constantly critiqued and hammered on who they were and just how they showed up within that environment. And it was primarily around their blackness and around their culture. And for me, seeing that also gave me a sense of I don't have to assimilate. And from a young age, I was, naturally, I was pushing back on that. But it also gave me perspective on, oh, there's other people that are navigating this. And they've made it to the highest levels without having to. And that message came through loud and clear. What also came through loud and clear was them just showing up as who they are, positioned them as rebellious. Which also was a lot of what I faced from a young age. Wearing my natural hair or how I dress, the music I listen to, all of those things became like, oh, you're being rebellious or this is a phase. At some point, you'll come back to the norm of what our environment or culture is within the community. N That just isn't the case. Speaker 4 (11:47) Yeah, the premise that if you're undeniable, then you will be accepted is a flawed premise. When you become undeniable, then the reaction is like, what do you have to complain about? You won. You're at the highest level. You're being handsomely rewarded for this. You're a celebrity. Everybody loves you. Like, calm down. You get that and Speaker 3 (12:10) you also get when you reach the highest levels. Speaker 3 (12:15) The level of influence that you have culturally across society also becomes a perspective of. No, we actually are going to try harder to get you to assimilate because we actually want the most successful and the leaders in our positions. And I think about this from the quarterback position specifically. This should fit this white CEO type profile. And when there's variance of that. The push or the pull to try to get you to be as close to that as possible becomes so significant. And it shows up from coaches. It shows up from the organization. It shows up from society more broadly. It shows up from some players. Speaker 3 (13:09) And being able to resist that and stay true to just who you are and how you show up in the world also becomes important because the same way that I got a very clear message from Allen Iverson and Randy Moss and Ken Griffey and a host of others become the same opportunity to be able to show people a world where Our leaders can look different. They can culturally be different. You can still go out and succeed at the highest level. And you don't have to just assimilate to what is viewed as the status quo or the norm. Speaker 4 (13:47) As your cultural currency increases and you become more successful, more prosperous, more celebrated. Speaker 4 (13:56) The resistance to that in you being your fully actualized self becomes exponentially higher. It's like it ramps up in lockstep, right? Or even like the resistance exceeds that. It's almost as if it's designed to get you to some kind of breaking point with it. Speaker 3 (14:15) Yeah. And the other part is the... Speaker 3 (14:21) the levers utilized within that become different as well. Whereas as a young age, it's like, it may be your family. It may be friends or coaches or direct community. When you get to the highest level, you'll, you'll get the GM. You'll get the coaches, the GM, you'll get ownership. You may have. Speaker 3 (14:47) you know, fans, you may have politicians, you may have corporate partners, all become influential people that are like, oh, you know. We want to do this deal with you, but we need it to look like this. But we're going to pay you a lot of money. But like, it needs to look and feel like this. Speaker 4 (15:10) The temptations become more tempting. Speaker 3 (15:13) The temptations become more tempting. The dollar amounts become larger too. Even with contracts, it's, well, we're going to pay you a lot of money. You need to act like the face of the organization. Speaker 3 (15:31) It's typically never explicitly stated, but I got it in terms of, hey, well, you shouldn't get any more tattoos. As the quarterback and leader of a historic organization, you need to look the part. It's like, well, define what that look is. Speaker 4 (15:56) Yeah, turn on any NFL game today. You know, like it's so, like we were talking earlier before you got here about how so many things that were just, you know, cultural bombshells 10 years ago would be like nothing now. And you watch any NFL game, like everybody's just got sleeves, you know, everybody. And you're getting grief for wearing a sleeveless hoodie or like whatever it was that you were doing was like causing all these problems for you now that looking back now, I mean, do you think like. God damn, man. Like, you know, like if you were coming up now in the NFL, like, would it have been different? Speaker 3 (16:33) A little bit, but the pressure still exists there. There is, and there are more black quarterbacks in that position now. So I think that has grown and evolved because of the performance, because of the style of offense. Again, it has to be undeniable before people start shifting, which is unfortunate, but it's the reality. Speaker 3 (17:05) Culturally, a lot of that still exists. And a lot of the black quarterbacks that come in, it's like, in large part, you know you have to uphold a certain standard and a presence that may not otherwise be just the norm. For me, beyond the tattoos, it was like wearing a snapback. was like, you can't do that. You're the leader of the team. But I'm going out and performing at a high level. We just went to a Super Bowl. We just went back to an NFC Championship game. Speaker 3 (17:48) I'm performing and showing up for the team in the way that I need to. While I think there has been movement there, I think there's still a much longer way to go. How Speaker 4 (17:59) does that square with guys like Deshaun Watson who get the $230 million contract and are in all kinds of trouble? Speaker 4 (18:11) I actually don't Speaker 3 (18:12) know how that one even happened. But what the NFL does have a history of is players that have had off-the-field issues coming back in and being welcomed back into the NFL with open arms in large part. And the thing that I think about most in relation to that is It gives the NFL leverage and it gives the teams leverage to be able to demand a higher level of obedience. We helped you out of this situation. We looked out for you. Now you're going to do exactly what we tell you to do. You remember that, right? And I think that's a dynamic that it... It's important for people to understand because I've seen it show up over the years. It becomes almost a space where it's like, you're going to be our player that we help, that helps get the other players to move the way that we want them to, which is, you know, it's an interesting piece. And players, like, you feel it and you see it. Because ultimately those players show up differently on the other side of it. Speaker 4 (19:44) With the exception of the superstars, most NFL careers are super short. There's so many players. So that like power dynamic or that looming threat is really existential for a lot of these athletes because they don't know even from game to game if they're going to still remain on the team. So it allows like a kind of iron fist. approach that I suspect is different in the NBA where there's fewer players and, you know, like these kinds of maneuvers and machinations would be a little bit more difficult, but because there's so many players on an NFL team, you can move those pieces around in a pretty facile way, which gives the ownership more leverage. Speaker 3 (20:26) Yeah. That that's one of the interesting dynamics of football is Speaker 3 (20:32) Because your success is so reliant on your teammates. You have 10 other people on the field with you that if they don't execute, you can look really bad as a player. Also gives teams leverage to say, oh, we'll replace you at any point in time. And you can also be set up to fail. If teams don't want to succeed and they don't want players to do well, You know what? We're going to draw these routes up. You're actually not even going to be in the read. You'll be on the field, but the football isn't coming your way. So your catches may drop. Your yards and your touchdowns can drop. As a running back, you're going to get fewer carries. You get down the red zone, we're going to put someone else in. They're going to be the one Speaker 4 (21:28) who Speaker 3 (21:28) gets the touchdown. Even if it's Speaker 4 (21:29) not in the interest of the team winning. Speaker 3 (21:32) Those are things that in football you have levers to pull that are a little bit harder in the instance of basketball. Speaker 3 (21:45) If you put LeBron on the worst team, he can still go get 50 if he wants to. He'll be like, well, he's putting up numbers, but he's on a bad team. In football, you can't just go on a solo mission and be like, hey, I'm just going to go out and get mine. Do Speaker 4 (22:04) my thing, yeah. Speaker 3 (22:05) Because 10 other players have to do that too. And you also have control of coaches calling plays. Speaker 3 (22:14) It creates a dynamic of, no, you need to fall in line and you need to be obedient because you also know there's a level of control over your success that isn't just dependent upon you. Speaker 4 (22:30) This episode is brought to you by AG1. It's fall already. Can you believe it? The calendar just gets abruptly, insanely crazy. The alarms get earlier. School is back in season. Work is at full speed all of a sudden. And suddenly every part of your routine is up for renegotiation. But one thing I keep constant is AG1. First, because... It just takes zero time. One scoop in cold water, first thing in the morning, done. It's a habit so simple and so automatic, it's easy to just keep it. Plus, when the season gets loud, as it does in the fall, the value of the one steady thing goes up. It's just this anchor to ground you. 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