From Drinking Every Morning to Running 340 Miles: Tommie Runz on Recovery, Running & Redemption

The Rich Roll Podcast

Tommie Runz shares his powerful journey from functional alcoholism to sobriety, ultrarunning, and advocacy. Through candid storytelling, he

Key takeaways

• Sobriety is not just about abstaining from alcohol—it's a prerequisite for personal transformation and sustained achievement.
• Functional drinking can be deceptive; even high-functioning individuals may be trapped in addiction without realizing it.

Main topics

• Addiction and functional drinking
• Sobriety and recovery

Notable quotes

"I'm just like, I'm going to die like this. Like, this is how I die."

"The meetings saved my life. There wouldn't be any running if I didn't get sober."

Conclusion

Tommie Runz's story is a testament to redemption through honesty, disciplin

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) I don't know when the morning drinking started, but that was standard. And I'm just like, I'm going to die like this. Like, this is how I die. Speaker 4 (0:07) He's sober. He's an accomplished runner. He's making a positive impact on the world. Prepare to be inspired because today you're going to hear the experience, strength, and hope of Tommy Runs. Speaker 2 (0:19) 17 years old, senior year, I think it was. Ran out of the classroom and then like passed out. All of a sudden, I'm drinking every day for two weeks. Speaker 4 (0:26) That's like... the most accelerated case of alcoholism I've ever heard. Well, Speaker 2 (0:31) the story hasn't even finished yet. The meetings saved my life. There wouldn't be any running if I didn't get sober. I did Osaka Marathon seven days before Tokyo. Six or seven marathons in a year. The Speed Project from LA to Las Vegas, 340 miles. How do you continue? And how do you make that decision for yourself even though everything's telling you to stop? So how do you do that? Speaker 4 (1:02) All right, Tommy, before we even get into it, Dan over here dug into the archives and I want to share something with you. Speaker 1 (1:12) Troll podcast. This is Tommy Runs. I think it's important to mention that I'm a young black guy from the Detroit area. Went sober, then went vegan, then started running. And sober vegan runner isn't normally synonymous with the black community. So it was just so much different for me to be going down this road. And I was kind of like on my own with it. You know, the veganism is just not a thing in the black community for real. I mean, it's getting better now for sure. But at the time. Like, I didn't know anybody that was vegan that's black or that was in my circle or even close to my circle. So I was just kind of on my own looking for material and information. I found Finding Ultra, and it just spoke so much, like, to me. I've been in AA and went through the program, loved the program. The program helped me so much in so many ways that, I mean, I just feel like I'm indebted to those people in those rooms and those tables. So hearing that Rich went through the same process. in so many different ways from a different side of the world to me. But then also felt like all the same feelings and all the same, like, just troubles, you know? It just made me feel at home reading the book. And then so I started watching the show, and it seems like every time that I was trying to make a new, like, direction in my life, the podcast had a guest on it that was perfect for that moment, perfect for the past, the moments that just passed that I needed to get over, or someone that was inspiring me to move on to the next step. kind of reach forward. My journey went from desperate to thriving with running veganism. Now I have a running company. I have my own little personal brand on Instagram. Now I'm working with companies. I've been able to interview and have a podcast. I've been able to interview some of the people that have ended up on your show as well to help people just kind of navigate through these things and through these times. I super appreciate how much time you spent on talking about the black community. and the issues in 2020 that arose and came back to the forefront. So I appreciate you. Time runs. Thanks, Rich. Namaste. Speaker 1 (3:14) So Speaker 4 (3:14) that was 2021? Yeah. So like five, six years ago. Speaker 1 (3:21) I Speaker 4 (3:22) had forgotten about that and Dan unearthed it. And it was so fun to listen to that today. I know. I happily forgot about that. So how does that make you feel hearing that now, like so many years down the line from where you were at that moment? Speaker 2 (3:37) It makes it feel like sitting here feels surreal because I know how much. I know like what role that book and your podcast and the beginning of my sobriety in running. I just know how much it all meant to me to like see somebody thriving and working. Because before sobriety, I just didn't know like what life was on the other side of that and like who I would be. So to get into it and be curious about like self-improvement and all that stuff to catch all that, you know, catch your content and your... story at that time, it was like a big deal for me. So I was really happy to be able to like have a moment to record my thoughts and like send it to you, you know, whether you used it or not. So it's like surreal for me to be sitting here. And I guess I'm proud of me then. Like it makes me feel kind of proud. Like it's kind of cringy hearing it, but it's, I'm proud that like, I'm still finding out, like still like trying to find out who I am in this journey, but then also like trying to help people along the way. Speaker 4 (4:40) I'm very moved listening to that and knowing you now, you're paying it forward. This is what we do. This is what we learn in the rooms. You hear the experience, strength, and hope. You put it into practice in your own life, and then you turn your head around. You put your head on a swivel, and then you pay it forward for somebody else. This is just an example of that, and I think this journey that you've been on is... so beautiful. We first met at the running event. What year was that? 2021. 2021. So maybe it was, was that after? It must have been after. Speaker 3 (5:15) It had to have been after, right? It was after. Speaker 4 (5:18) We were introduced by our mutual friend, Russell Nadal. Shout out, Russell. Shout out, Russell. Thanks for making the introduction. And I've been able to kind of watch from afar as you really embraced. sharing your story, your story of addiction and redemption and your running journey. And it just continues to blossom. And it feels like you're really hitting your stride right now. And you're connecting with people. You're out at all the races. You're creating content. And you're inspiring all kinds of people, particularly communities that are unfamiliar with this world that you are now very much a part of. I appreciate that. Speaker 3 (6:00) Yeah. Speaker 4 (6:01) Let's do a little walk into the past. I want to take it all the way back to, you know, growing up in Detroit or just outside Detroit. Speaker 2 (6:09) Yeah. All right. So when I was one year old, I was like, yeah, it's far back. You Speaker 4 (6:16) know, we're going to do what it was like, what happened and what it's like now. Speaker 2 (6:19) Okay. Okay, cool. Yeah. So like I grew up, I was born in New York. And my mother and father separated when I was five. So then we moved back to Detroit. My whole mom's side of family is from Detroit. And like my mom was just like single mother kind of like from that point on. My dad passed away when I was eight years old. He died of a stroke at 39 years old. And you're 41 now? About to Speaker 3 (6:46) be Speaker 2 (6:46) 42 now. About to be 42. Yeah, so like my 39th year was like I was my. I was in my head so crazy, you know? By the Speaker 4 (6:53) way, you look like you're like Speaker 2 (6:54) 26. I appreciate it. You're like ageless. It's insane. I heard some saying like blacked on crack or whatever, but I grew up without him, you know, and my mom did such a great job of like really hustling and trying to make everything work for me and my sister, you know, like, and it was really like a great place to be. you know, to grow up because there's just so much diversity in some of those schools. But at the same time, like I felt lost, you know, like, and I'm not sure if it was, you know, probably because my dad passed and I didn't have like, I'm the third, so I have the same name as him, you know? And I just always was like trying to chase this or thought of chasing this person that I didn't really know that like people spoke so highly of, like, it wasn't like, oh, your dad was cool or whatever. It's like the people that talked about him, it, it made me feel. Like I could never be that. Your kid growing up, confused, Speaker 4 (7:52) not feeling great about yourself. Like what was your kind of journey through like junior high school and the early years of high school? Like who are you hanging out with? Like what kind of kids? Like where did you fit Speaker 2 (8:04) in? I was not like the cool kids. And I wasn't like, like, that's crazy. Speaker 4 (8:10) Cause you're so fucking cool. It took a long time. I was like, I need some fashion advice, but Speaker 2 (8:15) you're doing good. You're doing good. I like this. I like this whole look. Speaker 4 (8:17) Yeah. I thought a lot about this. I was like, Tommy's coming in. I gotta like, I gotta, I gotta take this seriously. One thing Speaker 2 (8:23) I wish I could do is grow a beard. And you know, every time you grow a beard. I saw your video about that. Speaker 4 (8:27) You, it'll, well. Yeah, I guess you're Speaker 2 (8:29) 40. Speaker 4 (8:31) Were you about to Speaker 2 (8:32) gaslight? My beard is going to come in. For those that Speaker 4 (8:35) don't know, you can see it on Tommy's Instagram. He did a video where he's like, I wish I could grow a beard. So you had AI mock you up with a beard. And I was like, oh, you look like Denzel Washington's son in Tenet. It's pretty badass. Yeah, Speaker 1 (8:48) it looked Speaker 4 (8:48) pretty good. Yeah, so you're like, I'm going to go to Turkey and get hair transplants on my face. Speaker 3 (8:53) I'm traumatized at this Speaker 4 (8:54) point now. But you got so much on top of your head. Yeah. going on you know that's why you get one or the other i think you Speaker 2 (9:01) know i guess i guess i feel like there's people with both but whatever you know right um we can't have everything you really can't um but yeah so like i don't even know what was the question i don't know either Speaker 4 (9:13) uh what kind of you weren't with the cool kids yeah so who are you Speaker 2 (9:16) who who was your hang yeah so like i was kind of like i was i was like in the middle like i was trying to i was like kind of watching the cool kids do their cool kid things you know like because we just didn't have like The school I grew up in, cool meant you had all the nice stuff. You had the iceberg sweaters and the whatever jeans, and that was the vibe. And if you didn't have that, you were just kind of like had to watch it happen. So I was friends with all of them, but I was just on the outside because I just wasn't that cool to them because of what I wore. But I was always, everybody knew me, I knew them, and I just felt like I was just kind of meandering through this. middle school, high school experience. It was like watching what I wanted to be, which just kind of like tore me up a bit because I was friends with all of them, but I just wasn't, I didn't feel like I was okay or cool enough to come walk to the heaters that they used to sit on in the hallway in the school. And it was strange, but I've always had a few friends. I've never been the person that had like... 20 friends at a time, which is kind of counter like what I was, what I wanted. I wanted all of them to be my friend. But in reality, like I'm the type of person that has like two, three friends that I rock with and hopefully till like death do us part type of vibe. And so like middle school and high school was like a weird thing for me. Like I was, I wasn't great at school. I didn't like homework. I could pass any test that you give me. just because I was in the class. I could figure it out on the test day, but I never really applied myself just ever at that point. And maybe it was because I was trying to not look like I was trying hard, but it just left me in this limbo of are we trying to do this life or not? And if I can't be as cool as them, then maybe I don't want to try. But I started golfing in eighth grade or something like that, which was definitely also different. at that time but that was like the tiger woods era so it was okay enough but that kind of gave me some like purpose through through high school which was like make sure my grades are good enough to content to play and i was like pretty decent but i was also still pretty short at that point and so it just didn't allow me to like like flourish in the way that i thought i wanted to but it kind of gave me purpose to kind of connect those years of making sure i didn't like flunk out of school Speaker 4 (11:42) So no track and field, no cross country, no basketball, no running, golf. Yeah. Speaker 2 (11:48) So all the sports that I played were just all neighborhood stuff. We had a bunch of kids in our neighborhood and we used to play every sport possible. If somebody watched a movie about football, we're playing football the next day for sure. Speaker 3 (11:58) So Speaker 2 (11:58) I've always been athletic, but I didn't play any high school sports except for on the golf Speaker 4 (12:04) team. So when does drinking enter the picture? Speaker 2 (12:08) Drinking enters... in the hallway um 17 years old senior year i think it was um and my friend brought like these little nips you know little bottles uh he like got them from his mom or something like that or stole them from his mom and he's like you want some i'm like sure so the first drink i took it was like all of a sudden i didn't care about what i thought everybody else thought it was like the moment of like fake clarity like oh my god i can I don't care anymore. I could be myself. And then once people start realizing I was drinking, because then I just went from those couple little nips to like trying to find out like next day, like how can I drink more of this stuff? Do you have more? And then I found out ways to try to get some of my own. So I went from not drinking at all, really. Having a family of, you know, my dad's side of the family is a drinking family. Or at least that's what my view of it. To like all of a sudden I'm drinking every day for two weeks. Just like that? Just like that. Speaker 4 (13:09) Like a light switch got flipped. Speaker 2 (13:11) Yeah. Like it was like, I mean, it was like fast friends. Like I need tomorrow, like, or today I need this like now, like, cause if I can walk into school and not like think that everybody's looking at me weird cause whatever, then that's what I want. Speaker 4 (13:24) Did it go immediately to Speaker 2 (13:26) drinking, like Speaker 4 (13:27) before going into school, like in the morning? Or was it just looking forward to after? No, Speaker 2 (13:32) no, it was in school. Wow. Cause I needed it in school Speaker 4 (13:35) in Speaker 2 (13:35) my head. Like right away. That's like the most accelerated case of Speaker 4 (13:39) alcoholism I think I've ever heard. Speaker 2 (13:42) Well, hold on. The story hasn't even finished yet. So like two weeks into the drinking thing, this is the first time I've said this on a microphone before. So this is funny. So two weeks into drinking, there was a pep rally day. And I had gotten whatever liquor that I thought I needed or whatever. And I drank. so much because like even in that first two weeks people realized like I had a drink up on me so they would be like wanting the drinks all the cool kids were oh let me take a sip let me take a sip so like then all of a sudden I needed to have extra you know and then so I'm drinking throughout this whole day this pep rally day it's only a half day by the time like before the pep rally it was only like two hours into school like I wake up and I'm on the floor in the bathroom passed out with my mom, my principal, and like the security liaison, like standing over me. Cause I had like ran out of the classroom and then like passed out. And that was two weeks into my. Speaker 2 (14:45) alcoholic like journey wow and like i tell that like because it's probably my mom's probably like you did not have to tell that story but it's just like it just that just shows like how powerful like alcoholism alcoholism is because like in any other scenario that happens to you that fast into this thing you're scared straight you know you're scared away like i can't obviously that's not for me i can't handle it but what i did was like slowly like okay well i can't drink liquor right away because i just can't even smell it because it's just too It just sends me off. Maybe I'll just drink some beer. Like as I got back into it. So I like slowly like weaned myself back into it because I just needed to have that feeling again. Speaker 4 (15:22) Yeah. A normal person would be appalled and say, yeah, no more of that for me. But the reason that it happened is because you're not that guy. Like from the first drink, you're like, oh, this is the solution to all my problems. This just makes me finally feel comfortable in my own skin. And you begin to realize how uncomfortable you've been all along, as if all the cool kids had this operating manual for life and they're all walking around feeling great about themselves. And now you've discovered this elixir of life that allows you to feel the way that you assume everyone else feels all the time. Speaker 2 (15:56) Yeah. Speaker 4 (15:56) It was a cure Speaker 2 (15:57) to the pain that I felt like I Speaker 4 (16:00) was going through every single day. And that's the thing that gets missed, I think, too often in discussions around alcoholism and recovery. It works. That's why you're doing it. It is a solution to a problem. It's not the problem. The problem is you feeling uncomfortable in your own skin and why that's the case. And until you heal that or find a solution for that, you're going to continue to drink. Speaker 4 (16:32) This episode is brought to you by Whoop. To celebrate turning 60 in a handful of weeks, I am planning to guide a disabled athlete at the New York City Marathon, which is quite the leap from where I was not long ago, slowly recovering from spinal fusion surgery. And to be ready, I have plenty of hard work ahead of me, but I need to do it smartly, meaning I need to check my ego to prevent it from writing a check that my still very much healing spine simply can't cash. And this is where WHOOP becomes my essential training partner, preventing me from over strain because I always want to do too much. So I best absorb the training load that I'm putting my body through. And WHOOP does this by providing feedback on how my sleep and my recovery are trending against the strain. So each day's decision gets made from evidence instead of some old habit or from insecurity or anxiety. Push today, back off tomorrow, trust the process. Getting to that start line healthy really is the achievement for me. And WHOOP is how I protect it. 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And if you offer a service like consultations, sessions, live events, it's got the unglamorous stuff that actually runs a business built right in. The P-side flag is the email campaigns. You can set up automations that stay connected with your people. Nurture the ones who haven't booked yet and keep you top of mind, all in templates that look as good as the rest of your site. That's the difference between a website that just sits there and one that's actually working for you. Turn the thing you love into something real and get paid for it. Head to squarespace.com slash richroll for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code richroll to save 10 % off your first purchase of a website or Speaker 1 (19:18) domain. Speaker 4 (19:25) That's such a extreme kind of episode where, you know, even a young person is going to know immediately, like, oh, this is like, like my, my thing with this drinking is different than. Speaker 4 (19:39) my classmates. Yeah. Speaker 1 (19:40) Yeah. Speaker 4 (19:41) And you're going to do anything about it, but you're like, you, you make a mental note of it. I knew I was an alcoholic. Like, you don't want to be the guy who's passing out. So you realize like, I got to reel it in, but I got to find a way to be able to continue doing this. Speaker 2 (19:52) Yeah. Like you had to, it's like, okay, lesson learned instead of, you know, lesson learned. Here's how I can do this better, you know, and be, I don't want to be that extreme. Cause that's, that's abnormal as well. I'm not going to fit into the cool kids if I'm laying in the bathroom floor, but how do I like, how do I weave this into my life in a way that. can allow me to be functional. And I think that like the functional alcoholic, the term that's the most dangerous term that is thrown around like in society to me, because that's the issue. Cause you, if you're, if you have a job, if you're moving forward, if you're going to school or doing the things you're, you're not on the side of the road, you know, drunk all the, all day, you feel like you're normal in some way. And then you, it just lets you just pass time and continue to just like. make these decisions or tear your life apart or tear your health apart. Well, the word Speaker 4 (20:38) functional is the wrong word. Like you're operating dysfunctionally, Speaker 2 (20:42) but Speaker 4 (20:42) you're not so dysfunctional that anybody is going to kind of force you to stop doing what you're doing. You can get by, but you're operating at like such a suboptimal level. I mean, but you think you're crushing it. Yeah. You really think you're crushing it. Speaker 2 (20:57) Well, that's Speaker 4 (20:57) part of the denial and the delusion. Like nobody knows what I'm doing. They don't, you know, like I'm getting away with this. And then as it accelerates, then you have to start with all the lying and the hiding and all of that. But what was the conversation with moms that night after passing out in the bathroom in high school? She couldn't have been too happy. So Speaker 2 (21:16) I don't even know. I think this was in early 2000s. So parents putting their hands on kids was okay at that point. And I was like 17. So I think she punched me when I got in the car, maybe in the chest or something like that. like she never like she wasn't a physical person like that um but i just knew like really her the look she's always she has this like look that she's like a lot of like a lot of parents have but it's this look that just like tore me up and i just felt so embarrassed and like ashamed and felt like i like i um like disrespected her and and disrespected my family and thing was like i had a one thing i remember about that day is like i had a job at that point And I had, I was supposed to go to work like later on that day and she made me go to work, but she wasn't going to take me. So like I had to call my grandma to come take me to work. She knew the whole situation. And she's like this, if you like, I hope you get to meet her. She's like this really like, you know, quiet. So kind everybody if you meet her everybody's just gonna be like they're just everybody loves my grandma just automatic because she's just so kind supportive and attentive and You feel like she's like looking into your soul as you talk to her as she talks to you and so she got in she I put got in a car quiet because I'm trying to figure like how to not be drunk right now and We're driving to this this place out and like the suburbs and she like right before I got out she like looked at me and like the first word she said was, or the only word she said in the car was like, don't let them see you like this. Like to me, that meant just, it was just so much. Cause I was just walking into this building with, you know, at that time it was a, it was a golf store and it was just, it's just going to be all white people. And I'm just looking a mess. So she's like, just pull yourself together and don't ever let anybody see you like this. And I wish I took like the meaning of that, like right away and, and, and maybe just went a different direction, but. you know, the addiction one in that case, but that's what I remember from that day. And once I finally like came to terms with like my sobriety and started going on that walk, I knew more like what she meant. And I kind of tried to chase that, that like redemption of that moment, you know, like throughout my life. With Speaker 4 (23:38) that rapid of an acceleration, it seems like it would be difficult for you to sustain any kind of relationship with alcohol for very long. But that was what year? That was 2002. 2002. You get sober in 2017. So you got a good 15 year run after Speaker 2 (24:00) that. Yeah. Yeah. Good is a strange word. Yeah. So from that point, like I got back into it just a little more tame. I thought I was being, and like I said, I eased back into it. And Speaker 2 (24:14) I just knew my, I kind of learned from my limit. You know, I thought I learned my limit at that point. Like I'll never, I'll never be that drunk in public ever again. I'll never drink that much in a short period of time ever again. Like I had set these parameters without like, without knowing it. And it just allowed me to get to the point of, you know, okay, I need to go home. And I would just go home. Speaker 4 (24:35) and you were able to do that i was able to do that but Speaker 2 (24:37) then a lot of but that also led me to like this really isolated life you know you had family and stuff like that but i still was like i would just be at home drinking i wasn't i wasn't the type of drunk or drinker that like would want to be outside and at the bars and stuff like that like that yeah you're taking your grandma's advice it doesn't yeah Speaker 4 (24:54) you're you're not interpreting it as stop drinking just don't let anyone see you doing it yeah yeah Speaker 2 (24:59) so like and if you're in my house yeah it is what it is like you know So that was my thing was just like kind of hiding it as much as I could and then just never being in a car, you know, absolutely just trashed or just, I just didn't want to be around people. Like I was very alone to myself, like drunk. And that's, it was just part of like, I wake up every morning and Speaker 1 (25:23) finish Speaker 2 (25:23) whatever I didn't, you know, the day before. So the morning drinking started pretty early. I don't know when the morning drinking started, but it was definitely around 2012 or 13. That was standard. And I just pulled from so many different dumb inspirations. There was a dude that I remember being around because after I graduated, I went down this whole street rabbit hole where I just knew that I wanted to be out there or outside like that. And as a dude, I knew that was like... he would drink every day before he'd go out you know into the world because i mean he was living a much different lifestyle but he just felt like he needed to have like an edge when he went outside and i'm like well i'm going to work inside but i could i could still use this like little edge so i was just using all these little random moments to validate like how i was like moving through my life and but i just you know like i said like there's like three phases of it it's fun in the beginning In the middle, you're just kind of maintaining. And at the end, it's just like absolute torture because there's no chance of stopping this train that just is constantly rolling. And every time that I would try to stop, I would try to stop for like a week and I couldn't make it a day. And so every time I'd wake up in the morning and drink or every time that I would fail on these little small little stints of sobriety or dry Januaries. it just felt like every day like i was losing i wake up every day and take a l and it felt so out of control not because i was just like walking around the street stumbling around but i was just i had no control over my next like 20 minutes every time that happens it's it's Speaker 4 (27:15) like another deposit in the uh hopelessness desperation uh Speaker 2 (27:20) piggy bank Speaker 2 (27:22) Desperation was like, if I could have bought like two weeks of sobriety with every dollar I had at any point, I would have. Just to say that I did it. Did you know anybody that was sober or that Speaker 4 (27:34) didn't drink or you were just, it was like lower companion situation? Speaker 2 (27:40) No, I mean, I knew people that drank normal, like regular, like people that would drink. once every week or something like that and they could control it when you'd leave somebody's house like you'd buy a bottle and you take it to the house to have a party and you come back two weeks later and that same bottle's there like those people drove me crazy like how did you not drink this while i was gone but Speaker 4 (27:59) no adult no you're like orbit who was like yeah i'm an aa person no no no one's checking in on you like that Speaker 2 (28:06) like because even the people like in my people in my family like um on my mom's side that didn't drink they drank every now and then but it was no intentional, I go to AA. AA was a movie thing for me. That's the only time I saw it. And it was never really depicted in this light of you should check it out. That wasn't an option for me. Speaker 4 (28:29) You worked for many years at a auto transport company, right? Now you're full-time running influencer, racer, dude. But you had a pretty good job for a long time. Like you kind of worked your way up the ranks to like a VP level, I guess. Right. Is that a job that you started like right out of high school or, or, you know, like how did you find your way there? And then how are you kind of getting promoted at your job while balancing this secret life as a morning drinking alcoholic? Speaker 2 (29:01) Functional, bro. No, it was. They Speaker 4 (29:05) must've. Speaker 2 (29:06) on some level Speaker 4 (29:07) there's no way you had to just smell bad i asked him after i Speaker 2 (29:10) got sober i was like did you he was like no i did wow as i mean he had to be lying to make me feel good i don't know but so i started working for them in 2007. so like from the like graduating high school to 2007 there's like this like little area where i like i jumped into like i guess like street life um in a way and I found myself going directly in this path of actual self-destruction and gambling my freedom and life every day outside of drinking. Speaker 4 (29:47) What are we talking about here? Selling drugs? Speaker 2 (29:49) I knew people that did, and I was around people that did. I dabbled in it here and there. But I was much more like the younger dude around like people that were like 10, 15 years older than me. And they were just doing really well. And I met them through a girl that I knew at the time in Nixie. You know, like, I grew up glorifying like that. I guess the cars and the money and stuff like that, but it was really more of like that masculine, like I have it figured out energy and that confident energy that I felt like I didn't have. Like, so I watched all these movies and it's like, yo, that's the guy that I think I should be like, you know, I should be like running this or having, you know, money and doing what I want to do. And so like all of a sudden to like run into some people like this, they were. They were everything that I thought I wanted to be which was you know confident took care of their families and people knew him, you know in in hindsight, it was a very dangerous decision for me to be like, all right, what y'all need? And let's work and let me help. And let me make some money on the side here, do all these things. It was a big risk, but I actually thank God that I met them and not a different set of people. Because it wasn't like, I guess, hand to hand. It wasn't like I was standing on the corner somewhere. Speaker 2 (31:15) Much different than that and a little safer, but probably higher. The amount of years that potentially you could get if you got caught doing something would probably be a little crazy. But it was, I'm just happy I met them because they kept, they had kept me farther, far away from that daily energy as possible. But then they also like strangely had, even though I looked at the drug dealing part of it as, yo, this is who I want to be. because they're drug dealers, it was really who I wanted to be because they were, a lot of these guys are people that are just trying to take care of their families. Yeah, they Speaker 4 (31:52) look like they're thriving. Speaker 2 (31:53) They look like they're thriving, but then a lot, at least in the generation that I grew up in and looked up to, they had morals and like, and to an extent, and had like a code amongst themselves, like how they would carry themselves in the world and how they would take care of their families. Speaker 2 (32:13) You know, this is all around about story to get to like 2007. But when my my kid's mom had our daughter in 2007, 2007, I needed to get I needed to make a change. I couldn't be in the house I was in and have her in the house with a baby. So we moved to this other house and. I didn't see a dad directly with children until I saw these guys handle their kids. And so like for two, three years, I acted, I treated my daughter how they treated their little girls. And I would say the same things to my daughter eventually that they were saying to their kids. And they like taught me how to be like a... a father and like a man to kids and a man to a woman, you know? And so it's like a blessing, but it was, it's a weird, it's a dark moment in my life, but it was also this blessing that I ran to these people in general. But so like to fast forward to 2007. Before Speaker 4 (33:11) you go there, I mean, I think the. point that stands out to me in what you just shared is that these things are not black and white. It's in the same way that we were characterizing alcohol as a solution to a problem. You could look at this community of people and now in retrospect, realize like that was a bad decision. That was a potentially dangerous environment for me. I'm grateful I got out of it. But they were fulfilling a need. They were solving a problem for you by