Black-ish Creator Kenya Barris On Turning Down A $100 Million Netflix Deal, The Cost of Success & Curiosity As A Superpower With Malcolm Gladwell

The Rich Roll Podcast

In this episode of The Rich Roll Podcast, Kenya Barris and Malcolm Gladwell discuss their contrasting approaches to storytelling and the evolution

Key takeaways

Kenya Barris discusses the high-stakes gamble of walking away from a $100 million Netflix deal to pursue ownership and creative control.
Malcolm Gladwell explains his method of removing personal life from his work to focus on the discovery of new subjects.
The speakers analyze how brands are becoming the new 'scions' or patrons of art, potentially replacing traditional studio systems.
Barris shares how his upbringing in a volatile environment in Inglewood developed his ability to 'put out fires' and find humor in tragedy.
The conversation highlights the decline of the 'monoculture' as audiences fragment into specialized subcultures on platforms like YouTube and podcasts.

Main topics

Personal vs. detached storytelling
The evolution of the media landscape
The rise of the creator economy

Notable quotes

I grew up in a burning house.

Conclusion

The episode provides a profound look at how authenticity and a distinc

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) It was seven o'clock in the morning and Speaker 4 (0:02) I get Speaker 1 (0:02) a call Speaker 4 (0:03) and it's Ted Sarandos. He's Speaker 1 (0:04) like, what did I ever do to you but fucking make you rich? You fucked me, man. Speaker 3 (0:09) I love the 7 a.m. flex, by the way. We have director Speaker 4 (0:12) Kenya Barris. Kenya Barris, Speaker 1 (0:14) American writer, Speaker 4 (0:15) producer, director, creator of the hit sitcom Black-ish. You had this like $100 million Netflix deal, right? Speaker 1 (0:20) I Speaker 4 (0:20) took the gamble and we were doing successful. And I took the gamble. You're not just a guy who Speaker 1 (0:25) created a couple of TV shows. Like you built an empire. I couldn't sell for four years. I could not sell anything. That's why I was at the height of my career. Comedians, you learn to sort of take. and filter your negativity into something funny. My mom shot my dad. My brother was, were gangsters and drug dealers. A lot of crazy stuff, you know what I'm saying? People say like, I'm really good at putting out fires. And it's because I grew up in a burning house. Speaker 4 (0:53) All right. Well, I'm back with Malcolm round three or four. I'm not sure. Last time you were here with Chris Chavez, that was a kind of meeting of the usual suspects. This is the unusual suspects. Today, we're joined by Kenya Barris, which is an interesting alliance that you guys have here. We're on the precipice of season two of your Audible original podcast, The Unusual Suspects. That's the occasion for this conversation. I was fortunate enough to be one of the guests on this show. I think I said at the outset of that experience that I was baffled by being invited when I'd look at the list of other people that Speaker 3 (1:32) you sat down with. Yeah, I mean, Speaker 4 (1:34) I'm still confused by that, but I'll take advantage of it. But happy to be here with you guys. I've been thinking a lot about the friendship that the two of you have. When I think about the two of you. What you share in common is a tremendous amount of curiosity about the world and that obviously infuses your creative works. But what differentiates you is that Kenya, your work is all about your personal life. Speaker 1 (2:04) Whereas Speaker 4 (2:05) Malcolm goes to great lengths to remove any aspect of his personal life from the work that he does. Have you guys discussed that at all? Well, it's the difference between Kenya Speaker 3 (2:19) is a comedian at heart, right? Speaker 4 (2:23) And comics necessarily Speaker 3 (2:25) draw on their own lives. That's like, that's the, whereas I'm not a, I don't have a comic perspective on the world. Speaker 1 (2:34) But you do, I will say this, talk about quite often your upbringing, your Speaker 3 (2:40) grandmother. I don't write about it. I will. But Speaker 1 (2:44) you write about it. You've written about where your parents came from, your grandmother. Your mom Speaker 4 (2:48) is a central figure Speaker 3 (2:50) in Speaker 1 (2:50) your Speaker 4 (2:51) work. I just saw her, 95 years young. But you're sort of like, my life's boring. No one's interested in that. My Speaker 3 (2:57) life is, in Speaker 4 (2:58) fact, Speaker 3 (2:58) boring. Speaker 4 (2:59) And Speaker 3 (2:59) I don't think anyone would be interested in that. No, the point is, why would I? I don't know whether others would enjoy it. I would not enjoy. the process of writing about my own life because it's so much more interesting to discover. people who are Speaker 4 (3:14) new. You both know a lot of people, you meet a lot of people. What is it about each other that magnetized you to each other to be co-collaborators? Well, Kenya is my, Speaker 3 (3:26) you know, I am, as you know, half black, half white, but I don't get to exercise my blackness because I live in a very white world. I live in the Hudson Valley, you know, it's not even any black people in my kids' schools. Speaker 3 (3:41) all my people are Jamaicans and even Jamaicans are like, you know, they're, there's their own little breed. Kenny allows me to exercise my blackness because he knows every, not only is he's like, he knows every black person as far as I can tell in Hollywood. Right. That is true. I Speaker 1 (3:58) know a lot, but they know you too. They don't, but he's like so connected Speaker 3 (4:02) to all that. And it's, it's, it's a way for me to kind of, I can live vicariously. Speaker 3 (4:11) through Kenya's position. Speaker 4 (4:13) Well, let's hear a little bit about your backstory, Kenya. I mean, I know Malcolm's well, and he shared it here in the past, and you're new to this show, and I think there's probably more than a few people who aren't familiar with your work. So you grew up in Inglewood. Speaker 3 (4:34) I Speaker 1 (4:34) was born a poor black child. Speaker 1 (4:37) beginning of the jerk now you're you're Speaker 4 (4:39) lording over you know a tremendous empire um Speaker 1 (4:43) no i was i'm actually i say i was actually pouring like pakoyma and moved to englewood um and um single parent single mom after a while you know saying my mom that that was kind of abusive mom taught him a lesson Um, we had this, you know, all that stuff happened. Um, my mom was like, interestingly enough, like. really smart with her money. You know what I'm saying? They really were investing in like, low-income commercial apartment buildings, residential apartment buildings, not commercial, residential apartment buildings, but in the jungle, in neighborhoods. She wanted Section 8 to be there because she knew she would get her check. She was a gangster. She would walk around a little 38 to collect her own rent. Wow, you serious? Yeah. I was like, what are you doing? Maybe you shouldn't be in this business. She's Speaker 3 (5:48) a tough Speaker 1 (5:48) woman. But she would go. Collector rent and she was like. Speaker 1 (5:54) If these guys can't pay me $25 a month, you know what I'm saying? She would let people go like eight months, nine months without paying their rent. Because she's like, it's no money. She's like, I probably should bring a gun to come get this $200 because these guys are having a problem. But she was smart because she was like, I'm going to get a certain amount of money. She was like, told us to never rent. You know what I'm saying? She always was like, buy your homes. It's like your own personal little bank. Speaker 1 (6:22) People have told me that's not a good idea, but I cannot tell you how many times my house has bailed me out of a lot of bad issues, like having properties bail me out. But brothers and sisters went to SC. We were the first generation. And I realized that we were the first generation that directly benefited from the Civil Rights Movement. You know what I'm saying? When my mom used to always make sure we knew that. Like, theirs was like, maybe they'll go to school. It was like, for us, we had to go to school. Speaker 1 (6:53) went Speaker 1 (6:56) knew I wanted to go to I wanted to go to college, thought I wanted to be a doctor, ended up going to black college in Atlanta, married a doctor. You initially were studying medicine? I was. Yeah. Organic chemistry. Speaker 4 (7:16) I Speaker 1 (7:17) was like, Speaker 4 (7:17) come Speaker 1 (7:17) on, get real. This isn't for you. I Speaker 4 (7:20) was pre-med as well. After organic chemistry, I was like, I'm done with this. It's the breaking Speaker 1 (7:25) point. They say that's the turning point. I was getting like, I'd never got like a 12 on the test. You know what I'm saying? Like I was getting like horrible grades. Wrote a play, Ruby Dean, Ozzie Davis, put it on Lawrence Fishburne helped put it on. And I was like, oh, I kind of can do this. And then it started going. Hold on a Speaker 4 (7:46) second. Speaker 1 (7:47) How did Lawrence Fishburne like enter the equation? Because he was part of AUC. Speaker 4 (7:52) I see. And like you had. Speaker 4 (7:56) Spike Lee's mentor at your behest back then? Like there's a confluence of Speaker 1 (8:01) like... I did. Dr. Eichelberger. Speaker 4 (8:02) Yeah, so you were able to like connect with some interesting people that kind of shifted your perspective. How did Speaker 1 (8:09) you connect with that crowd? Because Spike went to Morehouse. Yeah. And I wanted to be Spike. You know what I'm saying? Like everybody wanted to be Spike. Like, you know, he was the first. For me, there was... John Cena and Spike, but I wanted to be Spike because Spike was doing really black stories. But he was doing them in a way, aesthetically, that had like the same sort of execution of like Scorsese or, you know what I'm saying, whatever. And I was like, and they were stuff that he was not in any way, shape, or form trying to run from black stories. But he was doing them in a way that they spoke to a really wide audience. And I really liked that. And I was like, awesome. So I went, you know, I wanted to kind of study under whoever taught him that. Speaker 4 (8:47) What year was this? Speaker 1 (8:50) 92. to 96. Speaker 4 (8:52) so it was uh before malcolm x but after uh do the right thing i Speaker 1 (9:01) have to do the right thing um before yeah and Speaker 4 (9:04) um you Speaker 1 (9:05) know it was it was it was you understood immediately going to auc why he got it because there's something about that now you're saying all these kids my kids you know went to one of them went to um hbcu and they went to like these really you know, fancy private schools. But now you go to these fancy private schools and it's like all those kids are turning down Stanford. They're turning down Duke. They're turning down Berkeley to go experience that. Because I think what is happening is they realize it's undergrad anyway. So if they want to do something advanced, where they go to grad school really matters. But it's weird when you're used to being an other and you get to go to some place that you kind of feel like. You're not an other. And now you're doing it with like other kids who have a little bit of means and chose this and they're not there because they didn't have other options. And it changed my life to go and be in a situation coming from L.A., which is, interestingly enough, pretty. Speaker 1 (10:07) it's pretty segregated, you know what I'm saying? Like, south of the 10 is like, you know, the neighborhood, you know what I'm saying? Like, and I didn't really realize how segregated it was because, you know, you're there and you see people, it's like, we really do live different lives. So to go to a place where it was as homogenized as Atlanta was, and you saw also a lot of people. outside of school, Leonard was the home of the most black millionaires. You know what I'm saying? When I was there, I know it still is. You saw a lot of doctors, a lot of lawyers, you know, a lot of... A lot of people, when you, there's not too many places in the world that you can be in a building somewhere, right, in this country, and a black person owns that building without you knowing. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's a lot of times you'd be in a building, building, and you'd Speaker 2 (10:55) be Speaker 1 (10:55) like, oh, a black person owns this building. Or, you know, or you get four general recommendations and all four of them are black. You know what I'm saying? So it was like a really interesting. It expanded Speaker 4 (11:05) your sense of what was possible. Speaker 1 (11:07) It expanded my sense of self-worth. You know what I'm saying? Which I think is hard when you kind of come up in a segregated situation where you're part of the segregated half is socioeconomically depressed. You know what I'm saying? When you go into a, when you go in, especially when your mom is telling you you can do everything, you can do whatever, whatever. When you go to a place and you actually see that. You're in a homogenized. It's not Wakanda. You know I'm saying because it's you know, so Atlanta but like you go to place and you see people actually doing stuff you kind of have a it changes your belief in what you can do and How did Speaker 4 (11:42) you Speaker 1 (11:42) find your voice? It's crazy. People say like I'm really good at putting out fires Right and I was like, that's because I grew up in a burning house. I'm saying like it's not something that you really know I think I found my voice through like a lot of like Speaker 1 (11:58) My mom shot my dad, you know what I'm saying, in front of me. My brother was, were gangsters and drug dealers and, you know, and addicts and, you know what I'm saying? And grandmother was married a bunch of six, seven times, you know what I'm saying? Like a lot of crazy stuff, you know what I'm saying? Brother, little brother died of leukemia, you know what I'm saying? A lot of like trauma, you know what I'm saying? And, but that stuff is the stuff that you comedians, a lot of times you learn to sort of take and filter your. that negativity into something funny. Really realizing for me, it's like I broke out in seventh grade, right when I was like starting to like girls and I was like this short kid, it was like chubby short kid with like acne, like didn't really have money, you know what I'm saying? My brothers were much more cooler than me, like and I would go sit in the back of the classroom, right? And I would just sit there quietly and I'd watch everybody. for weeks, walk in. I wouldn't say shit. Cause I was like, and you know, I kind of, well, I had a couple of friends, you know, kind of nerdy, whatever. And I'd wait for someone to sort of like bag on me and I'd destroy them because it would seem like it was coming right from, you know, my thing. But I had been waiting for you to say this to me for four weeks. I have 35 jokes for you. You know what I'm saying? And suddenly, it was like people were like, oh, he's funny. He's a superpower. You know what I'm saying? And I was like, I started just watching and realizing if you can make people laugh or fear you, you know what I'm saying, you do the same thing or whatever. And so that became like just finding out that using my voice is sort of like everybody has something and kind of finding what people's tales are. Speaker 4 (13:44) And Speaker 1 (13:44) what people's, you know, in reading rooms. And I kind of think like that was the best way of telling stories was through context. You know what I'm saying? Like so many people tell stories and they don't tell the other side of the story. Right. And I'm like, if you can tell a story and you can create enough characters where you're not just telling it from one point of view and you can actually explore it through a narrative that seems like it has enough. Different people to make people think about it. That's my voice. It Speaker 4 (14:14) seems like it happened pretty quickly for you You write this play But it's not long before post college you're in LA You're on writing staffs. You're starting to sell shows I mean, I think you you know, you've sold like I don't know 20 pilots over the years Something like more than that incredibly prolific career as a creator, also very successful as a business person. It's interesting, your mom was almost like your mentor for business as a young person. But in terms of your career trajectory and your arc, you seem to move right in and kind of plant your flag pretty quickly. You were 30 when you co-created America's Top Model, right? I Speaker 1 (15:03) was probably younger than that. I thought it was 30 when it came on. So even younger than that. But yeah, it was, I think taking the swings has been, you know what I'm saying? The thing was like that hustler sort of vibe of taking the swings. I think, you know, like I, it's crazy. I was a fan of Malcolm and I, Tipping Point was out. And I think it was like, it's like almost like 48 Laws of Power. you know what I'm saying, 50 to 50 laws of power, but like there's certain Shunzhu, there's certain books that become like hood classics that are like the books that you wouldn't think, right? But like they kind of like lend themselves to like hustle mentality. And Tipping Point, it, you know, was told you how things become, go from this to, you know, fad to, you know, into phenomenon and things like that and the different people that are needed. And it was like exactly when you're trying to start having a crew, if you're going to be a weed crew, if you're going to be like in this, like exactly was like you need to have one of these kind of people. So I saw Malcolm at this restaurant, Jelena, and he was just trying to like literally be left alone. And like I walked up to him and I was like probably sagging jeans and whatever. And I was like, oh, my God. You know what I'm saying? It was a long time Speaker 4 (16:21) ago. Speaker 1 (16:21) It was a long time ago. I was 15. More than that, maybe. When Speaker 3 (16:26) were you doing Black-ish? Speaker 1 (16:28) I had not done Black-ish yet, had I? Speaker 3 (16:30) I Speaker 4 (16:30) thought you had done Black-ish. Speaker 1 (16:31) I think I was just starting Black-ish. Just Speaker 2 (16:33) starting Black-ish. Speaker 1 (16:33) That was maybe 15 years ago. Speaker 4 (16:34) Yeah, yeah, yeah. That Speaker 1 (16:35) was maybe 15 years ago. You guys have Speaker 4 (16:36) been friends for a long time. Speaker 1 (16:38) I met him, and he was very kind, and we kept in touch or whatever, and I would, you know. Speaker 1 (16:46) Here at For Memoirs, I think we did a podcast together. It really came during a really interesting time where pandemic had happened and I had done the show Black AF. And it was so split in terms of people loved it or they hated it. It was myself and Rashida Jones starring in it. It was on Netflix. It kind of was like blackish on steroids. You know what I'm saying? It was like the much more bluer. you know, satirical version and black people don't get to do satire, which was like really what I wanted to do. It was more of a satirical version of it. I was playing a version of myself and it came out and it was like, like literally people like loved it or hated it. You know what I'm saying? Got really good reviews, I mean really good numbers. But Malcolm said some really positive things about it. And I was like, oh my God, thank you for that. Because it changed. I was like having like a crazy day. And I noticed that the people who were saying that was having the issues with it were people of color. You know what I'm saying? A lot of black people were having issues with it because I think it was not what they were used to. You know what I'm saying? At that time, Tyler, who was a friend, he does amazing work, but he had become the gold standard of what it was. And it was so far away from that. You know what I'm saying? And I think it scared a lot of people too because it also had a sort of like... a sense of like isolationism in terms of like, what would this life you don't live? And this is, and I think the people who got it were like, that kind of reminds me just my wife and other people were like, this is so far from what a real black guy's life is. And we got into a conversation and we did some stuff with Pharrell. You know what I'm saying? We started talking about that. And I started, I started realizing by this time I had really got into your books and I started realizing like, There was something that I found in those books that really always stuck with me since I was a kid. Not before I read his books. I always had a curiosity of the why behind the why. You know what I'm saying? And I think that's what Malcolm's books do so well. You know what I'm saying? It's like it finds the thing and then it asks the question behind the thing. You know what I'm saying? And in the storytelling, that's what Black-ish did. You know what I'm saying? It basically is a hypothesis that we try to prove or disprove from. you know, why are Tatiana, why are Tatiana, Tatiana Tisha or something like that, you know what I'm saying? Or Devante, you know what I'm saying? Where'd those names come from? And people want to make fun of them, me being one of them, you know what I'm saying? And instead of just leaving that out there, actually doing some research, you know what I'm saying? And realize that they came from like a really interesting sort of civil rights movement of people wanting to escape from like, we're not African. You know what I'm saying? But we're also not part of the fabric of like, mainstream America. So they wanted to create their own sort of... identity in the place where so much, and I was like, and so you need to do a story about it. That was very similar to a type of story Malcolm would do. Speaker 2 (19:50) And Speaker 1 (19:50) so I was like, I started really realizing and almost in a Chico way, like that was something that I could get from reading his books, but also in telling the type of stories, like that was a little bit of the secret sauce of what Black-ish and my storytelling in general, you know, really became about. Speaker 4 (20:10) How does that feel to you to hear that? I mean, he's basically saying like, you know, there's some sort of inception happening here where the spirit of your work has influenced how he thinks about the stories, how to tell the stories that he wants Speaker 3 (20:25) to tell. Speaker 4 (20:25) I was going to make another Speaker 3 (20:26) observation first, which is, Ken, you didn't answer the question. In a Speaker 4 (20:31) very interesting way. Speaker 3 (20:34) The question was, and I've noticed that on more than one occasion, you never want to tell us. Some kind of miraculous thing happens. So you're growing up in Englewood. You go to Clark. And the question was, and the next thing you know, you're making shows in... That are being watched by millions of people like there's no Speaker 1 (20:57) how did it the story? I think I'm a friend. Speaker 3 (21:00) How did Speaker 1 (21:01) you Speaker 4 (21:01) get those doors open? Speaker 3 (21:02) Okay, so you make your way I Speaker 1 (21:03) just recently had this conversation with someone so it's interesting you're pointing out Speaker 3 (21:07) This is not the first time, by the way. I Speaker 1 (21:09) don't talk. You Speaker 3 (21:10) don't like to. You always Speaker 1 (21:11) change the subject. So I'm not one of those guys. When we were interviewed, you talked about like mind over matter and manifestation. I don't believe in that shit. You know what I'm saying? Like, I feel like that just feels like airy-fairy. You know what I'm saying? Like, what's going to happen happens. You need to work hard for it or whatever. Speaker 2 (21:28) I Speaker 1 (21:28) kind of have to sometime. Speaker 1 (21:32) fight myself, right? Because I know that, like, I talk things up. And I know if I actually say that, it's going against my sort of, like, core value of, like, well, the world that I actually believe in. You know what I'm saying? But I do believe that sometime I, for whatever reason, will manifest my words, negative or positive. You know what I'm saying? Like, in such a strong way. Like I'll be really, really, really afraid to fly in a plane or almost crash. You know what I'm saying? Or I'll say. I wish I could get one of those Netflix deals. You know what I'm saying? I just signed a great deal. And I was like, I wish I could get one of those Netflix deals. And Disney will shelf my episode and give me an out, you know, and an opportunity to go get a deal that I didn't think possible. Or I'll say, I wish I could meet this woman. You know what I'm saying? And I'll go and I'll meet that woman on a date. You know what I'm saying? Like something crazy will happen. You know what I'm saying? And that's why I hope I don't have. an ulcer and whatever i just feel like i really want it to be spike lee you know what i'm saying i wanted to be the black jed apatow that was actually what i used to say i was like i want to be a black jet apatow and i used to say it and say it and say it and it kind of started