Shabana Mahmood: Palestine Action, Faith, and What I Told Starmer

The Rest Is Politics: Leading

In this episode of The Rest Is Politics, hosts Rory Stewart and Alistair Campbell interview UK Home Secretary Shabana Mahmood about her deeply held faith, its role in public

Key takeaways

• Shabana Mahmood describes her faith as central to her identity, recounting childhood Hajj trips in Saudi Arabia and explaining how belief in divine accountability shapes her approach to public service.
• She defends the proscription of Palestine Action under the Terrorism Act, arguing that applying the law consistently means arresting supporters regardless of personal sympathy for their cause.

Main topics

• Faith and public service
• Palestine Action proscription

Notable quotes

"I support the cause of the Palestinian people... But you don't have to show your support for the Palestinian people by also supporting a proscribed organization."

Conclusion

The interview provides a candid look at how personal conviction, legal con

Transcript preview

Speaker 3 (0:00) Thanks for listening to The Rest Is Politics. Sign up to The Rest Is Politics Plus to enjoy ad-free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestispolitics.com. That's therestispolitics.com. This episode is presented by IG. October is here and we're barreling towards the biggest financial moment of the year, the budget. Between that and new chancellor and the new prime minister, there's genuine uncertainty about what's next for our finances. And Speaker 2 (0:28) of course, uncertainty is a massive problem for all of us. Rumors, speculation, opinions from absolutely everybody. And the trick to navigating all this noise, whether in politics or business, is to try to know exactly where you stand. And that's where IG comes in. Speaker 3 (0:43) From investments to trades, it brings your entire portfolio together in a single app with one unified wallet to fund across all your accounts. And with over 20,000 stocks and ETFs, you'll have the breadth to act no Speaker 2 (0:55) matter what the Chancellor announces. And here's the cherry on top. With no annual fees and zero commission on UK stocks, shares and ETFs, more of your money. stays where it belongs. Download the IG app to get started. Trade, invest, progress. Capital at risk. Other fees may apply. Speaker 2 (1:22) Welcome to the Restless Politics, leading with me, Speaker 3 (1:25) Rory Stewart. And with me, Alistair Campbell, and we're with Shabana Mahmood. And Shabana Mahmood has one of the toughest jobs in British politics. She's the Home Secretary. And it's therefore quite fitting that she has a reputation of being a pretty tough personality herself. She is a working-class Brummie, raised above a corner shop by Kashmiri Pakistani parents. She's a Muslim. who says that her faith is the most important thing in her life. She got to Oxford University. She became a barrister, but politics was always, I think, calling. MP since 2010. She had a number of front bench roles under Ed Miliband, none under Jeremy Corbyn. That was her choice. But when Keir Starmer became leader, she rose to the Shadow Cabinet, became Justice Secretary when Labour won power, and then moved to the Home Office. And that's a position she's retained under Andy Burnham. So with crime, policing, asylum and immigration to deal with, she's going to need all of that toughness and all of that faith to deal with all the problems. But Shabana, thank you very much for being here. Thank Speaker 1 (2:30) you for having me. Thank Speaker 2 (2:30) you for coming. So, Home Secretary, just to begin, tell us a little bit about faith. We're very interested in faith. And how important it is in your life. And is it literally more important than anything else? Speaker 1 (2:47) Yes, it is. I was born to Muslim parents and I was raised in a very religious household. The practice of our faith, prayer, fasting, all of those things have been a part of my life since I was born. And Speaker 2 (3:01) was that true of all your relatives and other neighbours? When you were growing up in Birmingham, were there families from outside Kashmir who were... more religious, less religious, some people praying five times a day, other people not? Speaker 1 (3:13) So, I mean, the community I grew up in, Small Heath in Birmingham, at the point at which my family came to live there, became a very Kashmiri-Pakistani dominated area of the city. And lots of my own relatives basically live on the same street as us. So my mum's sister lived across the road from us. You know, my dad's mum and siblings live just up the road, like two minutes away. So like the family was very closely situated to one another, the extended family. And I would say, you know, almost all of my extended family are. as religious as my own parents. You know, they're all raised in very practicing, very faith-conscious households where faith is the thing around which the rest of life is organized. And that was the environment I was in. The first six years of my life, though, I spent in Saudi Arabia because my dad's a civil engineer. And there was a lot of work for British civil engineers out in the Middle East in the 80s. They were building desalination plants. They were getting water out of the desert. So he had good work opportunities in Saudi. He went first and then the rest of us followed him. And, you know, our family life, one weekend we would go to Mecca, Mecca Sharif. And then the following weekend we would go to Medina Sharif, so the Prophet's Mosque in Medina. And we did that. Every weekend? pretty much every weekend for the whole time we lived in Saudi. I performed the Hajj as a three-year-old, so it doesn't actually count. I need to perform it as an adult under my own steam. But as a child, my parents went and it was just my twin brother and I then. We were three years old and that is one of my earliest memories in life. So I remember being on my dad's shoulder. He had me on his left shoulder. He had my twin brother on his right shoulder. He was holding us quite tight because he's busy. There's Speaker 2 (4:49) a Speaker 1 (4:49) lot of people there. He sort of grabbed onto my mum and the four of us performed Hajj like that. That's one of my earliest memories. I remember the sea of people. I remember looking at the sky. I remember feeling like it was a bit like magic. That's one of my earliest memories in life. Speaker 2 (5:03) You then became a lawyer, went to Oxford and are now a Home Secretary. As you've gone through that journey, have there been times when your faith has been less strong, where you've felt that you might be in danger of losing faith? Have there been times when it's been stronger? And how does it inform? Public service. What's the relationship between God and public service? Speaker 1 (5:25) My belief in God has never waned. It's always been very strong. You know, my sort of making sure I've done all my five prayers a day has waxed and waned over the course of my life. I'm having a good phase at the moment. But so the actual practice, but although I've never missed a day of Ramadan in my life, so since I was 10 years old, I think is when I first started observing Ramadan, never missed Ramadan. You know, the practice of my faith, like lots of, you know, people that grow up might have gone up and down a bit. But my actual belief in God, the belief that all good and bad comes from God, that life is a test. It's also a gift that you're accountable to God. That has never changed. So one of the earliest lessons I remember my parents teaching me is that you're never alone. Even when you're on your own, you're actually not alone because God is always with you. That also means God is watching you. God knows the truth of your heart, even when you don't know it yourself. And therefore, you're always accountable. And so you might think that you've lied and got away with something with your parents because you stayed back with your friends a bit later than you should have or whatever. But God will know, right? So even if other human beings don't know, God knows. And that belief, that sense of God's presence has never, ever changed in my life. Speaker 2 (6:32) Did it take you some time to become as confident and open talking about your faith? It's wonderful to hear you, but you talk about it in a very uncomplicated, straightforward way, which I guess would make... anybody proud who feels that you should be encouraging people to believe in God. But was it something that you've got more used to recently? Oh, Speaker 1 (6:51) that's a really good question. I think my experience in politics and talking about faith is that when I was first elected in 2010, it wasn't a thing that was talked about. I'm not shy talking about faith. wear the name of God on my person every day. You know, it's not a thing that I hide. Spend five minutes in my company, you will very quickly work out I'm in the God squad. But I think other people didn't really talk about it. And so then it just becomes a thing that people don't talk about that much. Or they sort of see you as a block without really engaging with the beliefs that you actually have and how those beliefs might shape your life. So I think that the broader conversation around faith, when I first sort of entered public life, just didn't feel like a very rich conversation. or it felt a bit embarrassed. I've jokingly sometimes said, oh, that's, you know, Alistair with his we don't do God comments, which he has told me he has been much misquoted on before. So I'm sure we might pick up on that in a minute or two. But it just wasn't a thing that other people felt that comfortable about. But, you know, at any point that I've been asked about my faith, I don't hide it. It's not just about being proud about it. It's actually just who I am. And so if you're going to ask me questions about who I am. you know, I'm going to lead with being a Muslim because that is the thing that's the most important thing about my existence. We Speaker 3 (8:06) talked about this when you came to our place for dinner. It wasn't misquoted. It's what I said. We don't do God. But the meaning that I was trying to apply to it was I, at the time, always worried that if Tony Blair talked about his faith, it would be misinterpreted. and that his opponents would claim that he was allying Speaker 1 (8:25) God Speaker 3 (8:26) to labor, God to politics. I actually think we're now in a different Speaker 1 (8:29) era. Speaker 3 (8:30) I agree with Rory. I love it when you talk the way that you did. I don't have faith. Speaker 4 (8:35) I'm Speaker 3 (8:35) fascinated by people who do. But you say you've never wavered in your belief in God. Has it ever caused you problems in your political career, do you think? Speaker 1 (8:45) I think that, yes, in the sense that I think the Labour Party is a very welcoming and open place. And a large part of my being Labour comes from my family and the sense that Labour is the only party around at the time that they came to this country that was willing to look at them like they could be fellow citizens. So a lot of it is tied into our origin story as Brits, if you like. But there is a tendency. in the party, certainly the modern Labour Party, to sort of see faith as an identity and not a belief. And so I've had moments where I've tried to explain to colleagues, like, this is not like a badge that you wear. It's not a team that you're in. It affects how you see life and how you think a good life should be lived. And those can be quite challenging conversations sometimes because I think a lot of people, this is not just for Labour, but actually in the world of politics more broadly, if they engage with faith, they do it in a slightly detached way. And they see the very nice soft side of, let's say, interfaith work, going to a mosque, having tea and samosas with local worshippers. But without getting into the God bit of it, it's almost like faith, but without having to touch the idea that we believe in a deity that created us. to whom we are accountable, that there will be a life after death, that there is a greater thing to which you must answer. People don't find that comfortable or they think it's like voodoo, doodoo magic or something and they think you're a bit of an idiot. Speaker 3 (10:11) I mean, it's really interesting that you probably talked to your special advisor coming in. What do you think the lead on? Here we are straight into faith, but I get the feeling you love talking about it. Speaker 1 (10:20) Yeah, I mean. I feel comfortable talking about it and I find it interesting when people who are not religious or from a different faith ask me questions about mine. I like that sense of connection that you can still find with people, even if they have a totally different view of the world and how it came to be. I have a constituency that is very sort of God-loving and God-believing, but with lots of different faiths. And I represent lots of people from the Pentecostal tradition of Christianity. Speaker 1 (10:51) small number of Anglicans, a small number of Catholics, a small number of Jews, a bigger number of Sikhs, you know, and I sort of love going to their places and working out the bits that I think are almost the same and then the bits that are really, really different. I enjoy that. It makes me feel good about the world. What's Speaker 3 (11:09) your experience through life in Britain of racism, you personally? Speaker 1 (11:16) I mean, racism has been a fact of life. You know, the first time I was called a packy at junior school, we'd left Saudi, we were back home in Birmingham permanently. And I didn't actually know what it meant. I remember going home and asking my parents. I do remember them panicking a bit and feeling unhappy. Speaker 1 (11:39) And then I very quickly learned what it did mean. Actually, it was one of my black friends at school that really taught me what it meant. And she's also the one that taught me what the N-word is and explained that that's how some people see us. So it has been there. And, you know, it's something that has happened. I think I've had a reasonably... Good experience in that I've had those instances throughout my life, but they haven't dominated my life. There haven't been sort of daily occurrences. Do Speaker 2 (12:05) you look at the stuff that people say about you on social media? Speaker 1 (12:07) No, I don't look at that. You Speaker 2 (12:08) don't bother? I Speaker 1 (12:08) don't bother, no. Speaker 2 (12:09) We're now in a very, very different conversation, I think, from where we were 10, 15 years ago, because you've now got figures on the far right, even some figures in the Conservative Party, who are beginning to talk about... Britain as a Judeo-Christian civilization. I came across very influential people recently who I hadn't had an argument with who were trying to characterize Islam in the most sort of Speaker 2 (12:40) extreme fundamentalist sense and trying to quote lines the Quran at me in order to suggest that real Muslims have to agree with everything that ISIS says. What is going on here? Because it seems quite dangerous to me. I mean, it seems as though there's a story emerging that Muslims are somehow not real British people. Speaker 1 (13:00) Yeah. And there's, I mean, look, the level of Islamophobia and straight up hatred of Muslims has... gone far beyond what I ever thought it could, even in the aftermath of 9-11, the point at which I was still at university. And I thought the world had changed then, but it feels like it's much worse. I think that the people who sort of pontificate a lot about the Judeo-Christian tradition tend not to be very good Jews or Christians themselves, as it happens. I think it's a label that people have sort of taken, and they think this means that they are speaking great truths about where we've all come from. And I think it's actually just a tell that they are. Usually malign actors trying to dress up their worldview in sort of pseudo-intellectual ways. And there's definitely a new vein on the right of like the radical right that are trying to now be Christian nationalists, I think, is a bit of what I see going on. And again, I'm not actually that convinced that lots of those are proper God squad Christians as it happens either. But I mean, to the extent they might be. See, the phenomenon I see over there is not that different to the phenomenon that I've seen with Muslim fundamentalists. They're just fundamentalists. They're people who have a need to be supreme over others. Our way is the only way. There is no other way. You're either one of us or you're not. And in that respect, they're just like every fundamentalist I've ever met in Speaker 3 (14:16) my life. Speaker 1 (14:16) Weirdly, Speaker 2 (14:17) fundamentalists project fundamentalism on other people. So what I notice when you're hearing people being critical of Muslims, they're trying to characterize Muslims in the most extreme fundamentalist version, you know, as though you're not a real Muslim unless you agree with Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. And that's important for them because that... helps to fuel their polarization. And Speaker 1 (14:35) also because now that they've latched on to a religion as the outlet for their supremacist tendency, they can only see the world through that prism. And then they have to assume that everybody that isn't in their group and thinking the way they think has to be the worst version of the other thing. And Speaker 2 (14:50) then final thing for me, I then notice other minority communities getting unsettled by this. So I will hear Jewish friends say, oh, well, that's just, you know, these people believe in Judeo-Christian stuff, so we're sort of okay. Or Sikhs saying, well, that's a kind of anti-Muslim thing. And then of course, it's revealed when there is some horrible incident that actually the same groups will turn very quickly on the Sikh community or other minority communities. The idea that somehow this is just a thing about religion is very misleading because as soon as some crisis happens, it turns out that they are perfectly happy to go after almost any other minority group who don't happen to be Muslims. Speaker 1 (15:31) Exactly right. I mean, the fundamentalist has in their sights everyone, really. They just need the one big bad that they will define themselves against. And, you know, there is no shelter or shade if you happen not to be that one group, because one day they will turn on you as well. It's why, you know. Particularly since I've been Home Secretary and, you know, obviously the brief I have and the work I do, it's why I feel it's so important to take a stand against anti-Semitism as a Muslim. Because one day they come for them, but they'll come for me too. And there has to be a solidarity amongst those of us who are minorities. And we have to be able to shade and shield each other. I do think that that sort of willingness to do that on all sides is being tried and tested. Interfaith work in this country has taken a real hit post the events in Israel and Gaza, and it's a bit more difficult to build that sense of solidarity and community amongst minorities today than I think it was when I certainly first entered politics. So it's much more challenging, but I think in these moments it's actually more important than ever. And certainly if you're religious minorities, because... actually, you know, sometimes the only people that understand how it is to be you are other minority communities. And I mean, sometimes I almost include like, you know, my Christian friends in this. I have a lot of Irish origin Catholic friends in the Labour Party. And then in my constituency, I have lots of people who are a bit more sort of Anglican and of that persuasion. But, you know, being a believer in God feels like a minority pursuit, even if the numbers overall still suggest that you're in a majority. And so there's a sort of camaraderie that you have. And, you know, when I hang out, if I hang out with friends who are both Christian and Jewish, you know, we always all turn on each other in a funny way to be like, you know, I raise your one day of Passover with 30 days of Ramadan kind of jokes. And so you can have a level of honesty and a freedom of hanging out and connection that sometimes doesn't exist with other groups. So on that, I think that it is a mistake for any one group to think the spotlight is not on us and therefore we're safe because actually one day that spotlight will shift. Speaker 3 (17:35) You mentioned Gaza there. If you go back through your entire parliamentary career, and before that, you've always had very, very strong views and very, very pro-Palestinian. And when we asked our listeners, we told our listeners and viewers we were talking to you, and, you know, what you wanted to talk about, the number one issue that we were asked about was the ban on Palestine action Speaker 4 (17:56) and Speaker 3 (17:57) the treatment of Palestine action protesters. And I just wonder whether, given... how strongly you feel about Palestine and the Palestinian cause, whether you, in coming into the job, thought there was any merit in looking at that decision again. Speaker 1 (18:12) So you're right, the decision was made before I became Home Secretary by Yvette, who was my immediate predecessor. I think that... You have to do these jobs in a consistent way that has to stand the test of time. So, you know, I've come in and I know I'm not going to reopen every decision every previous Home Secretary has made. Was it lawful? Yes, it was. Does it meet the legal test? Yes, it does. Has something else gone awry that shouldn't have happened? No. And therefore, if you start that process, I'm going to re-litigate everything. Then I'd have to literally re-litigate everything. But Speaker 3 (18:46) you, I can't believe for a minute that you feel comfortable. seeing the pictures that we're having week after week of little old ladies holding up their placard with Palestine Action and being carted off into a police van. And I don't ever feel we've had the proper explanation as to why Palestine Action is this prescribed organisation. Speaker 1 (19:05) So, I mean, it's prescribed because it has met the test for proscription within the Terrorism Act. And that test remained passed, as it were, by the facts of their behaviour and the escalatory effect of their behaviour, even when I came into position. So it isn't as if the test was no longer met. And in fact, you're in a world of considering deproscription. Speaker 1 (19:38) But you're Speaker 3 (19:39) also an incredibly canny politician. Was there not a way of somehow keeping the prescription, but at the same time... not allowing your argument to be weakened by this weekly sight of little old ladies being thrown in peace flags? No, and let me tell you Speaker 1 (19:53) why, because I think this is why I started with consistency and coherence is really important. You've got to be able to apply your principles, even when it's uncomfortable for you, because you're going to really