Live from New York: Kenji guests on The Sporkful Live

The Recipe with Kenji and Deb

Recorded live at the Bell House in Brooklyn, this episode of The Sporkful features host Dan Pashman in conversation with guests Kenji Lopez-

Key takeaways

Judy Gold expresses strong disapproval regarding the disappearance of pumpernickel bagels in New York.
Kenji Lopez-Alt discusses his 'Tasting Notes' project which integrates live cooking with classical music performances.
The guests debate the validity of New York bagel quality, weighing water mineral content against historical expertise.
A serious discussion covers the allegations of physical abuse and poor labor practices at the restaurant Noma under Rene Redzepi.
Kenji defends spaghetti using his three-part metric: forkability, tooth sinkability, and sauceability.

Main topics

The state of New York bagels
Tasting Notes live shows
Labor abuses at Noma

Notable quotes

Pumpernickel bagels are the best bagels.

Conclusion

The episode provides a entertaining yet profound look at how food cult

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:01) Hi, this is Yuri from Radiotopia. Just a heads up that we're trying something new here, taking part in a podcast promo campaign by occasionally featuring episodes from other shows that we think you might like. We think it could be a win-win-win. The other shows get exposure to an excellent, discerning audience. I'm talking about you here. You find out about a great new show. and we get some additional revenue to help keep the show going. Have any feedback for us? Reach out at info at radiotopia.fm. And happy listening! Speaker 3 (0:40) Hey everyone, it's Kenji, and I've got something really fun to share with you today. I was recently a guest for a live taping of The Sporkful. It's a podcast I've been on many times before, and it's hosted by my old friend, Dan Pashman. We were joined by the legendary comic Judy Gold, and we're dropping the episode here so that you can check it out. We got into a whole lot of fun stuff, including the state of the bagel and babies eating straight up butter. I think you're going to really like it, and I hope you'll check out more Sporkful episodes, including a recent one about the restaurant scene in China, which didn't really exist even 40 years ago. Dan taped it while he was in Beijing earlier this year. Thanks, and I hope you enjoy. Speaker 5 (1:26) So normally when we do a show, we don't know before we record whether anyone's going to curse. And so if it turns out that people curse, we have a pre-recorded thing we can tack on to the start of the show. This episode contains explicit language. But since Judy Gold is one of our guests, I'm just going to say it now. This episode contains explicit language. Speaker 5 (1:51) This is the Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people, and we're coming to you live from the Bell House in Brooklyn. Speaker 5 (2:14) Tonight we're doing a live version of The Salad Spinner, our rapid-fire roundtable discussion of the biggest, strangest, and most surprising food stories of the moment. We even have the official Sporkful Salad Spinner here on stage. Joining me tonight are two very special guests in addition to The Salad Spinner. She is a legendary comic whose work I have loved forever. She's also a writer and the author of Yes, I Can Say That. If you follow her on Instagram, you know she has no shortage of opinions about food and pretty much everything else, which makes her a perfect guest for a salad spinner. Please welcome the one and only Judy Gold. I'm just giving you a high five because I can't stand up now. Listen, I'm not Speaker 4 (3:05) cursing at all this episode. Speaker 5 (3:07) You fucking asshole. Speaker 5 (3:11) And he is the author of two best-selling James Beard award-winning cookbooks, The Food Lab and The Walk. He hosts a very popular YouTube channel in which he cooks with a GoPro strapped to his forehead. And he founded a series of live shows called Tasting Notes that pair food with classical music. Please welcome my friend Kenji Lopez-Holtz. Speaker 5 (3:39) So it's great to have both of you here. Let's just take a minute before we get into Salad Spinner topics and just chat. Judy, I noticed on Instagram recently you posted a video about your love of borscht. Speaker 4 (3:50) Yes, I love borscht. Tell me more about what's your favorite kind of borscht? Okay, they have this hot borscht. No. I like the beet borscht, okay, with a boiled potato and sour cream. It is so delicious. I can't, I just, I crave it. I love it so much. And at the Comedy Cellar, they have this restaurant called The Olive Tree, right? They used to have the cold borscht. I would like literally go, I would, you know, hang out there, but I really, I mean, I wanted to do standup, but I really wanted to eat the borscht. And now they don't have it anymore. They have the hot borscht. With the, you know, the cabbage and the, and the meat and the bone and the, and I'm, no. Can Speaker 3 (4:43) you just buy the hot borscht and wait? I'll do the jokes. Speaker 4 (4:49) Okay. Speaker 5 (4:51) Whatever. Kenji, you've been, you've recently founded this thing called Tasting Notes. A couple of years ago. Right. So you're cooking on stage while people are playing classical music. Speaker 3 (5:00) That's how the shows have been. Yeah, so we do, it's a live stage show that's sort of interactive. Yeah, and the idea is that musicians and chefs are both... creative crafts people, you know? And so when I had the opportunity to try and figure out a way to put them together, that's why we came with tasting notes. And Speaker 5 (5:16) are you like going out there, is there a plan for what you're going to cook and what music they're going to play? Or is it just like, like whatever the, however the spirit moves you? Speaker 3 (5:24) No, no, no. It's, it's, I mean, it's, it's scripted. So we, we do sort of discuss how, yeah, the sort of the themes of each section of the show and how the music and the, and the food relate to each other. The one we're doing in Seattle is going to be a lot more. It's a smaller show, so it's just me and a single violinist, my partner Tessa. It's going to be a lot of audience participation. So we have like 20 pounds of unflavored gummy bears. Everyone's going to get blindfolds. Everyone's going to get nose plugs. And we're going to do all kinds of kind of fun, fun, interactive things. And you did one of these at a circus? We did a small version with the musicians from Cirque du Soleil. It was kind of just like a friends and family. fun thing. You said it was the fulfillment of Speaker 5 (6:03) a lifelong dream for you to be in the circus. I Speaker 3 (6:05) did want to be in the circus when I was a kid. Speaker 5 (6:07) What job did you want? Speaker 3 (6:10) I learned to juggle. I learned to ride a unicycle. I learned to play my violin on a unicycle. This Speaker 5 (6:15) is commitment. Speaker 4 (6:16) I'm going to go with not that popular. Speaker 3 (6:21) I was not popular. Speaker 4 (6:23) Same. Judy, if Speaker 3 (6:24) you Speaker 5 (6:24) could have had any role in a circus, what would your role be? Speaker 4 (6:28) The tall woman. Speaker 5 (6:32) All right, let's get going with the salad spinner here. We have our actual salad spinner. I Speaker 4 (6:36) feel like you talk to him for like, you know, 10 minutes. Oh, and you're doing this show and you're doing that show. And I get nothing. Nothing. What else Speaker 5 (6:45) do you want to talk about, Judy? Whatever. Let's go. Judy, can I ask you to please give the salad spinner a whirl? Speaker 5 (6:55) All right, you can stop it now. Okay. You're both native New Yorkers, so I want to start off today with a discussion of the state of the bagel. Not just in New York, but across the country. Judy, you first. Sum up the state of the bagel in one word. In Speaker 4 (7:12) one word? All right, whatever. Speaker 5 (7:14) Asking Judy to do anything in one word is a bit unfair. Speaker 4 (7:17) It's over the top. Over the top. I feel like I'm really upset about this whole pumpernickel bagel thing that's going on. The Speaker 5 (7:27) disappearance of the pumpernickel bagel? Oh, Speaker 4 (7:29) we're not going to have pumpernickel bagels. Pumpernickel bagels are the best bagels. They're sweet, right? They're sweet and they taste so great with the schmear. I'm telling you, I'm really upset about the pumpernickel bagel thing. And I'm also upset about like, these are the best bagels. These are the best bagels. No, they're not the best bagels. Okay. A lot of these bagels are good for like 10 minutes and that's it. It depends on how the water is. That's it. New York, New Jersey bagels are the best. That is the end of the discussion, okay? All right. And by the way, if you eat a blueberry bagel, don't ever talk to me again. Speaker 3 (8:11) How do you feel about cinnamon raisin? Speaker 4 (8:14) Cinnamon raisin, I mean, it's very guyisha, but it's been around for a long time. Speaker 5 (8:21) So, Judy, we've been talking about 10 minutes. We've been talking about 10 minutes, and you've come out hard in favor of borscht Speaker 4 (8:27) and Speaker 5 (8:27) pumpernickel bagels. Right. You're like a 102-year-old Jewish woman trapped in the body of a 63-year-old Jewish woman. Right. With Speaker 4 (8:35) constipation. Speaker 5 (8:39) Kenji, you were shaking your head when Judy was saying that it's the water. Yeah. Speaker 4 (8:44) Okay, you're not Jewish. Don't tell me. Speaker 5 (8:50) I am Jewish. I once interviewed Maria Balinska, a bagel historian, and she sent samples of the water to a lab. And they said that the water in New York is not special. Speaker 3 (9:01) The water in New York is not special. Well, the water in New York is also not. She's anti Speaker 4 (9:03) -Semitic. Speaker 3 (9:06) Depending on the time of year and depending what neighborhood you're in, you're getting water from multiple different sources in New York. And they all have different. Dissolve mineral solids in them. So the water in New York is not even consistent. And it's not special. I Speaker 5 (9:18) think the real difference, because we've looked into this, is that it's more just that there's more bagel stores in New York with a longer history of bagel making. So there's more sort of inherited knowledge and there's a more discerning customer base because we've been eating bagels for so long. And that pushes... That cannot be Speaker 4 (9:33) true because I go to other states and the bagels are vastly different. Okay? And the Montreal bagels suck. I know everyone thinks... Speaker 2 (9:42) That they are, oh, in Montreal, Speaker 4 (9:44) we have the best bagel. No, you don't. You do not have the best bagels. Kenji, what would you Speaker 5 (9:49) say about this current state of the bagel in America? Speaker 3 (9:51) So I think it's exciting in some ways. Bagels are changing, right? So there's this LA bagel trend now where the bagels are kind of more somewhere between a bagel and a baguette. I tried one of the bagels you got from Apollo. That was Apollo Speaker 5 (10:02) bagels. Yeah. Speaker 3 (10:03) I mean, if it didn't have a hole in it, I wouldn't recognize it as a bagel. But, you know, food changes all the time. But not the bagels. bagel. No, come on. You moved to New York in 1984 and the bagels that existed in New York in 1984 were not the same as the bagels that were in New York in the 1970s, right? They started getting bigger. They started losing their hole. Speaker 4 (10:22) Everything was smaller in the 1970s. I mean, look at like the Big Mac or like, you know, you look at what a soda was when I was a kid. The Big Speaker 3 (10:32) Mac has always been 1.7 ounces per bag. You Speaker 4 (10:34) know what? You're so annoying. You're so annoying. Speaker 4 (10:40) Don't join the circus. Speaker 3 (10:45) I would say, though, I've lived in Seattle for the last six years. When I first moved there, there were no good bagels. But there is now like a bagel culture there. And I think that's the real important thing is that in cities that don't have a bagel culture, the bagels end up sitting there. And so you're not getting a fresh bagel. And like Judy said, bagels die really quickly. In fact, when