Why You Only Need Three Pasta Sauces: Chef Jacob Kenedy on Why Italian Cuisine Doesn't Exist

The Recipe

In this episode of The Recipe, host Theo Randall sits down with acclaimed chef and restaurateur Jacob Kenedy to discuss his culinary philosophy, the history behind Soho's Bocca di Lupo, and the

Key takeaways

• Jacob Kenedy argues that 'Italian cuisine' is a myth, consisting instead of twenty distinct regional food cultures that evolved independently based on local geography and agriculture.
• He opened Bocca di Lupo in late 2008 on Archer Street, deliberately choosing a once-dangerous Soho block known for crack dealing to create an intimate, high-traffic dining space.

Main topics

• Italian regional cuisine vs. monolithic 'Italian food'
• Bocca di Lupo restaurant history and Soho location strategy

Notable quotes

"you only need three pasta sauces in your life, which are tomato sauce, pesto and butter and sage."

Conclusion

The episode underscores that culinary excellence stems from respecting regional traditions and

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) But they're real business for selling crack cocaine under the counter. And they got done by the police and they shut down and the site became available. It was one of only three or four commercial sites on Archer Street. So I thought, let's just take it. We'll put a nice cream shop in there. How hard can it be? Speaker 1 (0:15) Hello and welcome to the recipe brought to you by Filippo Berio. I'm your host, Theo Randall. Today I'm joined by a chef, author and restauranteur who has revolutionised how London experiences regional Italian cuisine. Everyone who... Speaker 2 (0:27) I cared about who cared about me, who I took to see the site. They'd look at me and they'd be like, you know, is there still time to pull out? Yeah. But it was Speaker 1 (0:34) a really great location for that reason. He's the founder of Soho's legendary Bocca di Lupo and a chef who proves that the simplest Italian dishes are often the most extraordinary. And the whole book shouldn't exist because you Speaker 2 (0:47) only need three pasta sauces in your life, which are tomato sauce, pesto and butter and sage. Yeah. And maybe bolognese if you need a fourth one. I think a lot of people Speaker 1 (0:57) wouldn't want the floor. Please welcome Jacob Kennedy. Speaker 1 (1:07) Jacob, it's such a pleasure to have you on the show. This show is all about a recipe that tells a story. What are you going to cook for us today? Pasta with tomato sauce. My favourite. Speaker 2 (1:15) I think it should be everyone's favourite. There's no other recipe to me that speaks so much of mother or home or heart. And I don't think there's any other recipe that I could eat every day. And I'd rather not eat this every day, but I could. Speaker 1 (1:27) I could eat this every day. I mean, it's one dish that I will always cook. If I'm on my own, I always think like chefs, you always want to cook for people. But it's the one dish that I'll always... cook for myself because it's the most delicious thing. Speaker 2 (1:37) Yeah, I cook it for myself. I cook it for my son a lot. He's six going on seven, going on 20 probably, but he loves it. But I also cook it very happily at home for guests of any level, if your guests have levels, or in the restaurant. And as with anything, if you make it right, it can be the best thing in the world. It just really can. It Speaker 1 (1:57) is the most delicious pasta because you've got the tomatoes, you've got the spaghetti, you've got the garlic, you've got a little pepperoncino there. Some lovely olive oil and some basil. But when you get that right, that balance right, it is so delicious. Speaker 2 (2:09) I think anything can be, but the simplest things are the most delicious because they speak most to your heart. So like a really simple sandwich is the best. Yeah. A really simple pasta is the best. Bronze dye pasta? When you get into it, there are different kinds of pasta. For this dish, I like to use dried pasta. Yeah. They're both from the South and you get more of a bite. The two things that can change are the wheat, really, and you want all granoduro. So that lovely colour and sandpapery texture. Yeah, and that yellow colour from granoduro. And then the sandpaper texture, it goes through a bonsai, which it sticks to a little bit, and it roughens the outside, which just gives it a little bit of texture. Any pasta that looks kind of Speaker 1 (2:47) golden but dusty on the outside. You've written one of my favourite cookbooks, A Geometry of Pasta, and that was such an iconic book. I mean, that must have been great fun writing that. Speaker 2 (2:57) It was all unexpected. It was the designer, it was a friend of mine called Kaz Hildebrand. She'd had this idea for a long time. I think she wanted Anna Del Conte to write it originally, but she got too old to write books. And so I was speaking with Kaz and she asked if I would. And we did it as like a cheeky little project that wasn't supposed to do anything other than just be a beautiful object and a bit of fun. And it was a lot of fun to write and a lot of fun to kind of, to come up with a structure and the way it worked. But it's been a... it's a roaring success it's i don't know how many editions it's had and in how many languages but it's everywhere really i think not because the recipes but because the idea which was kaz's and the design is so well Speaker 1 (3:33) the recipes are very good because the recipes complement the pasta so well but it is an absolutely beautiful book i mean it's one of those that you know you see posters and restaurants are they all and the geometry of pasta makes so much sense because it is i mean the shapes have to be a perfect size it always kind of you know, the intricacies of them. Well, people, it is lovely to look at and lovely to feel Speaker 2 (3:54) and lovely to feel in your mouth Speaker 1 (3:55) pasta as Speaker 2 (3:56) well. One thing that Italy does so well with all kinds of things, food, wine, architecture, culture, because it was always a bitty piece of land. It wasn't even a country to me. Yeah, 20 different countries. Every region found its own way of nourishing itself with what grew. And so people did different stuff with the dough, I guess. They came in different shapes. And you end up with this wealth of different shapes that go really well generally with sauces from the same place because they grew up together. And they drink really well with the wines from the same place because they grew up together. And you know the story. Speaker 1 (4:28) Yeah. We sell. Exactly. So tomatoes, what particular tomato would you use? Just like a passata or would you use fresh tomatoes for this? If I have good fresh tomatoes, Speaker 2 (4:37) I'd use fresh tomatoes for this. If I have good tinned tomatoes, I'd use good tinned tomatoes. This is a pulped one. You can use the diced tinned tomatoes. They're good. One of the strongest memories I have when I trained at Morrow, an expert at Morrow. Brilliant, with Sam and Sam. Sam and Sam. And I just remember they'd have these big tins of tomatoes. You would tip them into a bowl and you'd smush them up with your hands. Yeah. I was a bit shocked the first time I was in the kitchen because I always thought professional chefs, you know, they don't touch the food. They'll shock them, you know, beautifully. And it was great, you know, getting your hands in and getting everything in your fingers. So yeah, whole tomatoes, if you squish them up, they work really well. Speaker 1 (5:10) That's a great restaurant. I mean, that must have been such a lovely training, working with Sam and Sam. And I worked with Sam many years ago at Speaker 2 (5:16) the Speaker 1 (5:16) River Cafe. They've got such a lovely... attitude towards food and restaurants and people. I mean, it must have been a lovely place to start. I went Speaker 2 (5:24) there Speaker 1 (5:25) for, I took a gap year Speaker 2 (5:26) and I went there for a week at the beginning of Speaker 1 (5:28) the Speaker 2 (5:28) gap year just for fun to see what it would be like in the kitchen. And I fell in love with them and their kitchen and stayed. And that's when I became a chef. That was my downfall. Speaker 2 (5:37) You've done all right out of it. They had their 30th Speaker 1 (5:40) birthday. Well, they're having their 30th birthday this year. I remember their first day. It's amazing. And DJing. I mean, you're like me. I love music. I've got a huge record collection. You must have an incredible record collection. You were a semi Speaker 2 (5:52) -professional DJ. I downsized it. Around the same time when I was learning to become a chef, I started playing. I ran a little. club night in Cambridge when I was at uni there and I won a DJ competition and on the back of that I Speaker 1 (6:03) worked in San Francisco for a while and I played at a really good... Did you ever go to the Enduck? Where was that? It was like a late Speaker 2 (6:09) night after hours under the highway. I played there kind of once or twice a month. Wow. That's so cool. But then I stopped. Speaker 1 (6:19) And Speaker 2 (6:19) now I still buy music and I make the odd mix at home and I miss it. But Speaker 1 (6:25) music and food go so well together, don't they? Life. It's life, isn't it? It's life, Speaker 2 (6:28) it's Speaker 1 (6:28) true. Speaker 2 (6:28) Being with other people, sharing a moment. You know, the nice thing about cooking is you do it, it's all in the moment. You're cooking now and you're feeding to people and you see their reaction now. Yeah. Music is the same. It's something for the moment that people live in. Speaker 1 (6:41) But I think that's why we do what we do, because we love... making people happy. When you're cooking in a restaurant, you make people happy. There's a fun, there's an atmosphere. I mean, Bocca di Lupo is the most amazing restaurant for that. I mean, when you sit at the bar, you just feel the energy from the kitchen. You feel the energy from the floor. It's two Speaker 2 (6:57) ways as well. One thing that you see in the chefs is when they get to see the face of someone who's eating and enjoying the food, or they get a bit of an interaction with the customer, Speaker 1 (7:05) it Speaker 2 (7:05) changes their understanding completely because they realise the food doesn't... It doesn't finish its life on the plate on the pass. But that's when it begins and it starts this whole other journey. And they're watching people enjoying Speaker 1 (7:14) that beautiful plate of pasta. But Speaker 2 (7:17) some are a bit scared of working up there because customers can see and they feel watched and judged. And, you know, they're very self-confident. If they drop something on the floor, of course it goes in the bin. But they just all feel a bit nervous because someone's watching. Yeah. Right. Speaker 1 (7:34) I'm feeling hungry. Should we start cooking? Speaker 2 (7:35) Yeah. Speaker 1 (7:38) So spaghetti al pomodoro. How do we make this? Speaker 2 (7:40) This is the thing, because I've published recipes of this, and you probably have too. Yeah. Must have done at least one in the Bocca Cookbook, and I don't know how many, I think there's three in Speaker 1 (7:49) the Speaker 2 (7:49) Churros Speaker 1 (7:50) with Speaker 2 (7:50) Pasta. Which Speaker 1 (7:50) I love Speaker 2 (7:50) Bocca Cookbook. Speaker 1 (7:50) Bocca Cookbook is a brilliant book. Speaker 2 (7:52) I've got a new book coming out, and there's at least three in there. Where's the new book? The thing is, I don't think, do you ever follow a recipe when you're making spaghetti with tomato sauce? No. No. So, and how many different ways do you make it? Well, Speaker 1 (8:04) I mean, I kind of... do what you're doing. I mean, you've got to sort of look at the garlic, decide how much garlic you want, how strong it is, tomatoes. You know, if you've got some fresh tomatoes, I'd throw maybe a few fresh tomatoes in there. Fresh tomatoes are delicious, but they can be slightly acidic when you cook them. So I think, you know, a nice balanced passata is lovely. And then, you know, a really good olive oil, basil, can't really go wrong. And then cook the pasta in with the sauce. Yeah. Speaker 2 (8:28) Chili I put in normally, I make a mistake with it sometimes. When you underestimate the power of your chili... Speaker 1 (8:36) You've got to test the chili on your tongue. It's different every Speaker 2 (8:39) time. So there is a recipe for this. Yeah. But I would make it slightly different every time. And the big things that make a difference are how you do it. The things which can be right or wrong, how cooked the pasta is and how salty the water is and how salty the sauce is. But you can cook it very briefly and you have a very light sauce, which is summery, Speaker 1 (8:57) where Speaker 2 (8:58) you can cook it down a bit more and have something a bit more intense. very different flavour, how long you cook the garlic, whether you let it