The Best Return Isn’t Always Money

The Ramsey Show

This episode of The Ramsey Show features George Kamel and Dr. John Delony addressing listener questions about financial fairness, family dynamics,

Key takeaways

• Financial fairness doesn't always mean equal treatment; each family member's situation is unique.
• Resentment often stems from unmet expectations rather than actual injustice.

Main topics

• Financial fairness within families
• Emotional impact of unequal financial support

Notable quotes

"You've worked so freaking hard to bring peace into your home. Leave that center block out in the street, man. Don't bring that inside."

"One of those stories you make up will kill you, and one of those stories will give you life."

Conclusion

The episode emphasizes that financial peace begins with personal accountability and emotional

Transcript preview

Speaker 6 (0:01) A Medicare plan that worked last year might cost you more next year. Let Chapter check your options for free. AskChapter.org slash Ramsey. Brought to you by the EveryDollar app. Start budgeting for free today. Speaker 3 (0:26) Normal is broke and common sense is weird. So we're here to help you transform your life. From the Ramsey Network and the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio, this is The Ramsey Show. I'm George Camel, joined by Dr. John Deloney, and we're taking your calls for the next couple of hours. You can call this number, 888-825-5225. You jump into the conversation. David is in Indianapolis to kick us off. What's going on, David? How can we help? Hey, first Speaker 8 (0:52) off, big fans. John Deloney, I've listened to so much of your stuff. George, love your YouTube channel. It's great. Thank you. So, yeah, so I have an interesting situation. So me and my wife following the baby steps paid off approximately $60,000 in the past, you know, seven months or so. Wow. Well, I guess, I'm sorry, really the last two years if you include everything. And it's been great. On the flip side, my brother has not done that. And they got themselves into some financial trouble. And my parents have ended up giving them $80,000. And so it kind of feels like every time they get in trouble, they are using my parents to try to get out of it. And my parents keep letting them do this. And meanwhile, it feels like we're being punished because we're over here doing our own thing, paying off. our debt and do it the right way. Can I rephrase this Speaker 3 (1:51) and you tell me if I'm right? Okay, go ahead. Your brother is the prodigal son and dad threw him a party and said, here's a big old check, but even though you've been misbehaving and you're out here doing your homework and eating your vegetables, getting jack squat, and there's a little bit of resentment bubbling up. Speaker 1 (2:07) That's exactly right. That's very similar. How are you being punished? Speaker 8 (2:14) Well, I guess at the end of the day, it feels like we aren't receiving the same kind of treatment that... Speaker 1 (2:23) You're 100 % not. No question. Like, no question about it. You're not getting $80,000 checks in the mail. No question. But how are you being punished? Speaker 8 (2:36) I guess... I guess we wouldn't, to call it a punishment is not right. It would just be unequal treatment. Let me take it Speaker 1 (2:46) one step deeper. How are you a victim here? Because here's what I'm hearing. I'm hearing a man who looked himself in the mirror, got on board, him and his wife got together, and you all conquered a really seemingly impossible thing together for two years. And you've changed the life of you and your wife. You've changed the life of any kids that will come along the way. Yeah. Like how are you being wronged here? Speaker 8 (3:10) You're right. And we're and we're stoked about that. And I think in that perspective, we don't feel wronged, but we feel some resentment towards my brother for continuing to take advantage of my parents. Speaker 1 (3:26) It's not your brother. Your brother's going to brother. He's doing his thing. You're mad at your mom and your dad. Speaker 8 (3:32) Yeah. Speaker 1 (3:33) Direct that where it goes. You've been mad at your brother for years. This isn't new. You're upset that your parents are contributing to him not making wise financial choices. But here's the problem. They didn't call and ask you. And so you projecting yourself into their heart and mind, into their money, into their decisions, it sounds crazy. It's a choice that you're making on a minute-by-minute basis to be miserable in your own skin. Right? And dude, Listen, I completely understand the frustration. Like you're not, you're not, you're not out to lunch. Your frustration is right. I get it. And I'm not going to let that into my home because the home that me and my wife are building is full of laughter and warmth and freedom and joy and all the making out we want to do. Like we've created this thing, right? And I'm not going to make it Speaker 8 (4:23) out a hundred percent. Speaker 1 (4:24) I'm not, I'm not going, I'm not going to, I'm not going to let something. I'm just not going to, it's going to stop at the door like a vampire. I'm not going to welcome it in. And have you sat down with your folks? Speaker 8 (4:37) I've had many conversations with them. Speaker 1 (4:39) Okay. Do you have, have you had the conversation where you feel at peace having said what you like believe? Speaker 8 (4:49) Yes Speaker 1 (4:49) and no. It just feels like they don't listen a lot of the time. Okay. Are they ever, are they ever going to change their mind? Is there ever a conversation you can have and they're going to go, God, dude, you know what? You're right. We're not helping. And by the way, here's $50,000. You think that's ever going to happen? Speaker 8 (5:05) I hope so. No, no, no. I don't think that's going to happen. Speaker 1 (5:09) Okay. So again, you're right to be frustrated. You're right to be upset. And it may even be contributing to like a... I can tell you it's probably going to continue to negatively impact your brother because he's not going to develop the skills and the muscle that you and your wife have developed. Right. And. Speaker 1 (5:29) you've exercised like you've a person to character you've looked at people in the eye you've you've come to them you said here's the problem here's what i'm frustrated with and they've looked at you through their actions and said i don't really care what you say we're gonna do we're gonna do and so then to pick that cinder block up every day and keep carrying it to the point of resentment man that's that at some point that choice becomes yours and i would i would suggest man you've worked so freaking hard to bring peace into your home Leave that center block out in the street, man. Don't bring that inside. And here's the thing. What you don't know is, and again, I'm making this up. At the end of the day, we all make up stories, okay? We're storytellers. That's who we are. The story you're making up is they're going to drain themselves. Your brother's a bottomless pit of bad choices, and you're going to end up with nothing. That's a story you're making up. It could be true. It might probably be true. You could also wake up every day telling yourself the story. Speaker 1 (6:23) put my money aside, my inheritance aside, and they're going to do right by us later. And I'm going to live in that kind of freedom and peace. Yeah, that makes Speaker 8 (6:33) sense. Speaker 1 (6:33) And one of those stories that you make up will kill you, and one of those stories will give you life. Speaker 3 (6:38) Yeah. Do you believe your parents love you? I do. Absolutely. Okay. If that's the case, then love is not a finite pie where he got 90 % and you got less now. It just looks different for different people. And they see a guy hurting out here and they're giving a hungry guy a sandwich. And you're like, I got to go to the grocery store and make my own sandwiches. And you're like, you're right. They lowered the hoop for him while you've been training in the backyard shooting hoops. And you're thinking that's not fair. But the truth is you're a better basketball player. That's great. You've earned it. You've got the blood, sweat, and tears to prove it, and you're going to be just fine without any help from your parents. And that's one of the most powerful gifts you've given yourselves, is not needing other people, not relying on other people financially. Speaker 1 (7:21) But it does sting. Hear me say it. It does sting. Speaker 3 (7:23) And you're right to feel that way, and I would feel the exact same way if I was in your shoes. I would be calling this show Complaining to John. Speaker 1 (7:30) So in case you can't feel it, David, George and I are so on your team. We're talking to ourselves as we talk to you. Okay. Speaker 8 (7:39) Well, I appreciate that. I really do. And it makes sense. Everything you guys have said is, as makes sense. I think we're just gonna, we're just gonna try to leave it at the door. We're going to keep doing our thing. And, uh, yeah, we'll Speaker 1 (7:50) just, here's what I want you to do. Okay. I want you to write your parents a letter and I want your wife to write your parents a letter. God help you. Never send this letter. And I want you all to read each other the letter. Okay. And have that moment of grief and sadness. And then let's agree. We've said our piece to ourselves, to each other. We've shared what's on our hearts and minds together. We've told my parents to their face what we think is right and wrong. And they have said, we don't care. We're the parents and it's our money. And we're going to go about having the greatest life we can have. That would be my path, man. That's you controlling what you can control, which is you. Speaker 3 (8:25) This brings it back to one of the greatest life conundrums that life isn't fair. In our minds, we think it should be. If I do X, Y, Z, I should get X, Y, Z. And it's not a clean formula. It should. Speaker 1 (8:36) It just isn't. It's just not. 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Call 800-356-4282 or go to zander.com for a quick and easy quote. That's zander.com. Speaker 3 (10:31) Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm here with Dr. John Deloney taking your calls. Robert is up next in Biloxi, Mississippi. What's going on, Robert? Speaker 2 (10:40) Yes, sir. Me and my son run an auto restoration shop. We build classic cars. Cool. Yeah, kind of. It used to be. We're behind right now by about, I guess, $25,000, $30,000. What do you mean by behind? Speaker 2 (11:02) Let me think. I guess you could say we started out for not charging enough, and then it, I guess, turned into Robin Peter to pay Paul. Speaker 1 (11:12) But, I mean, are you $30,000, y'all are in the hole to repair the cars already in your bay, or are y'all losing that much money in like a month? Speaker 3 (11:21) Or did you take out a loan for $30 Speaker 2 (11:22) ,000? No, we're behind to finish the cars that are already in the shop. Okay. Speaker 3 (11:27) And what it's costing you versus what you're charging, there's a net loss of $30,000. Speaker 2 (11:34) Yes, sir. Got it. We're from a position, I guess we're fighting from a behind position right now. What started out as not charging enough, but that problem has been corrected. But it just feels like we're never going to catch up. Speaker 1 (11:49) Has that negatively impacted future business deals? Speaker 2 (11:54) Yes, because now they're taking too long. So obviously the calls have slowed down because they're like, man, they've had my car a while. Is it just you two doing all of this work? No, sir. We do have three full-time people. Speaker 1 (12:10) Okay. So what's the monthly hemorrhage on top of this? Speaker 2 (12:19) So we're bringing, I guess right now we're bringing in about $12,000, $12,200, and it's costing us around $10,000, $10,700 to do that $12,200. Yikes. Do you have any debt? It's going to take forever to catch that up. No, sir. Speaker 3 (12:38) So there's no debt attached to the business or in your personal life? Speaker 1 (12:42) No, sir. Can I throw a couple of things at you as a complete idiot when it comes to this stuff? Speaker 1 (12:52) Absolutely. What does it look like? Like, so I can imagine like the only, the only corollary I have is guitars. I like, I like fancy guitars and I don't have super fancy ones, but I like guys who work on super fancy guitars. There's a couple of guys in the building here that are legends in that world. And like, I understand that once you position yourself as we are classic car restorers, I would imagine same as I only work on high end guitars. If that market dried up, it would feel like I was losing something to then go change pickups and cheap guitars. But I know this. I know that there's a guy here in town that will come to the office and pick my truck up and drive it back to his shop and change the oil on it and bring it back here. And I pay him well to do that because it lets me be with my daughter more, right? Are there things like that that y'all could scramble for the next six months and do concierge oil changes, go fix tires, go be on call 24-7 that would allow y'all to play catch up? While the heartbeat of what y'all love to do, which is restore classic cars, which, by the way, I love, but that business isn't holding water right now. I'm afraid in an effort to hang on to your dream, you're going to have to close the whole thing. Yes, sir. You know what I'm saying? Is that possible? Do y'all have a way to scratch and claw and do other things? Speaker 2 (14:11) I'm sure we probably do, which I did, I guess, didn't get to my complete question, too, if you don't mind. Yeah, go for it. I do have, I guess, my retirement. Me and my wife have been putting money into for years. I have the money there to repair it. Speaker 2 (14:32) And I didn't know if, one, I should take that money out to get it caught up and then potentially pay that back one day, even though it's paying myself back. But I would have to dip into my retirement fund, but I could fix it doing that. How old Speaker 3 (14:48) are you? 50. Oh, boy. So you're basically going to take a loan out for 35 % interest is what you're doing by doing that. Speaker 1 (14:57) After penalties and taxes, you'll be taking a 35 % loan from Speaker 3 (15:01) our salary. Speaker 1 (15:01) While unplugging all that Speaker 3 (15:02) growth. Speaker 1 (15:03) I didn't consider that. Speaker 3 (15:04) So the stock market has doubled in Speaker 1 (15:06) the Speaker 3 (15:06) last five years. So if you had $100,000 sitting in there and you took it all out, you would have had $200,000. Now you have zero. And so that's the two main concerns is it's a really expensive loan, plus you're unplugging all the future growth, and now you're going to retire broke. So it's not worth the shortcut. at this juncture. So here's what I would do is look at the timeline. When do you actually need to make up the gap? Speaker 3 (15:33) Is this two months, six months? Speaker 2 (15:35) I would say by the end of the year. So that puts us at what, three? Good. Three months. Speaker 3 (15:40) So now we have some facts. We have three months to come up with $25,000 or $30,000. And that can come from liquid savings. That can come from future income. That can come from selling things. So I would sit down. Do you do all the books in the business or does someone control the finances? Speaker 2 (15:55) My son does. We're partners in the business and he kind of handles that. Speaker 3 (15:59) So let's have a come to Jesus creative meeting where we go, these are the options we have. We can liquidate things that are easily liquidated, like assets, vehicles, whatever it may be. We can use cash and savings. We can sell other things or we can scratch up some new income. Based on all that, how do we do that within three months? That's the goal. Have y Speaker 1 (16:18) 'all done that yet? No, sir. Okay. I think that conversation will be sobering on either end of the barbell. Either you guys will have a fire lit under your butt and you'll be like, oh, we see a pretty clear path. Or you're going to realize the business as y'all dreamt it no longer exists. And y'all need to make some other harder decisions. You get what I'm saying? Speaker 2 (16:41) Yes, sir. And going by this, my only other question I feel like I probably already know the answer to now was I guess, but I haven't wrote down. So I'm going to say it is we are in a bad location. And would it be worth going into retirement to get a better location with a larger building to try to further build a business once this is handled? Speaker 3 (17:04) You're saying dip into retirement to move locations? Speaker 2 (17:08) and to a larger one that would give us more, I guess, eye traffic. We have absolutely no traffic where we are now. We just do word of mouth, which actually was doing well, so they started taking too long. But anyway, a larger building and better location. Speaker 1 (17:25) Obviously, we would tell you the same answer is don't take a 35 % loan from yourself minus future growth for a business. The bigger issue is your business as you describe it is failing. $1,800 a month in net profit. And Speaker 3 (17:39) the failure will just be worse in a newer, nicer location that has more expenses. Speaker 1 (17:44) Yeah, it's not going to speed up your return rate on your cars. I mean, you haven't solved any of your business problems. Speaker 3 (17:51) Once you're thriving and you've got a handle on all this and you can cash flow the move, absolutely do it. But right now, you're trying to solve one problem with a bad solution, which is if we move, everything will be fixed. I Speaker 1 (18:04) don't think that's the case. And I'll tell you this, the mechanic that I trust and use on all my cars is in a way out of the way location. But that dude's reputation is so sterile, I could care less where he is, man. It seems like that kind of work is like a 10-minute oil change. I can imagine you need to catch somebody's eye on a street corner. I Speaker 3 (18:27) mean, they're dropping the car once and picking it up once, right? Speaker 1 (18:30) Yeah, the Speaker 3 (18:30) work Speaker 1 (18:30) you're doing is destination work. Speaker 1 (18:32) Yeah. Okay. Speaker 3 (18:33) Is there anything you can back out of that would free up some of this money you're behind on? Speaker 1 (18:37) That's what I was wondering. Can you go have a really... Speaker 2 (18:39) I would have to look at that. That's a very good question that I honestly don't have the answer to now, so I don't want to lie to you. Do Speaker 3 (18:45) they sign an agreement when they drop the car with you? Speaker 2 (18:48) Most of the time, not. I'm in a small southern town, and most everything is done on, you know, I get your good. Just good old boy handshakes. It might be that Speaker 1 (18:57) you end up with some egg on your face, but you have to go talk to two or three gentlemen whose car's been sitting in your shop untouched for four or five months and say, I'm not going to get to it. I can't do it. I'm sorry. And they may get upset with you and whatever, but that's just you. That may solve all of this problem for you. Speaker 1 (19:15) But I think you and your son need to have a bigger conversation about the systemic challenges in your business because even if all cylinders are firing, you're making $12,000 and spending $10,500. That's just not a sustainable business. Speaker 3 (19:30) Do you guys have any savings right now in the business or personal? No, sir. Okay. Do you have a wife? Speaker 2 (19:38) One thing Speaker 3 (19:38) I will Speaker 2 (19:39) say, yes, sir, sure Speaker 3 (19:40) do. Speaker 2 (19:40) Does Speaker 3 (19:41) she work outside the home? Speaker 2 (19:43) Thank goodness she does. Yes, sir. Okay. Speaker 3 (19:45) Well, we might need to look at some other sources of income and maybe you even go out and do something you're really good at and make really good hourly money doing it in the meantime, even if it means letting go of some clients to try to climb out of this. We're hoping for the best for you, man. Speaker 3 (20:23) Hey, George Camel here. Listen, if you're behind on debt payments and drowning in debt, I already know what you're thinking. I can't afford a lawyer to help. And honestly, that's exactly what creditors are counting on. But here's what most people don't know. Guardian Litigation Group doesn't work like a traditional law firm. There's no massive retainer. There's no hourly billing that costs more than the debt itself. Guardian is a law firm built specifically for people in default, behind on payments, or staring down bankruptcy. And their model is designed so people in that situation can actually access real legal protection. From day one, you're assigned an attorney. If a creditor sues you, you have someone who can actually represent you, not a call center that isn't built to defend you when things escalate. The best path out of debt is still doing it the right way. Budgeting, working the plan, changing the behavior. But if you've already hit a wall and you need real help, Guardian delivers. Their attorneys have settled over $600 million in debt. for more than 55,000 people. So go check it out for yourself, guardianlit.com slash Ramsey. That's guardianlit.com slash Ramsey. Attorney advertising. Results may vary and no specific outcome is guaranteed. Speaker 3 (21:42) Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. John, there was a, in the dark corner of the personal finance YouTube internet. Where Speaker 1 (21:48) you live. Speaker 3 (21:49) There was a firestorm. And here's why. Graham Stephan. Who I love. Real estate investor, personal finance YouTuber. We've been friends for a while. Speaker 1 (21:56) Yeah, he's great. I love him. We've collabed a Speaker 3 (21:58) lot. A lot of Graham fans out there. And some people found Ramsey through him and found Graham through us. And he recently posted this video one day ago. million views. I paid off my 2.875 % mortgage, dot, dot, dot. Dave Ramsey was right. Graham! Which is a great title because famously, while Graham agrees with a lot of our teachings and he's one of the most frugal people I know, he makes me look like a real big spender. I Speaker 1 (22:26) always dreamed of having a segment on my show called The Spendoff between you versus Graham. It would have been awesome. It would have been awesome. There's still time. Speaker 3 (22:32) So Graham posted this video and it was 16 minutes of him basically saying, What I have been telling him every time I've been hanging out with him, what Dave Ramsey told him, which is, yeah, but you got to just pay it off because the peace of mind is worth it. It's a weight off your shoulders. Life isn't about arbitrage and the spread. You're not taking into account risk. And it was 16 minutes of just, it sounded like he had, we had infiltrated him. It was inception. Speaker 1 (22:58) Alright, maybe. Speaker 3 (23:00) Well, you know, why don't Speaker 1 (23:01) we Speaker 3 (23:01) roll a 60 second version, a little montage, if you will, so you can get a taste for what happened in this video. Alright. Speaker 5 (23:06) After years of telling people not to pay off low interest rate debt and arbitrage your money in the markets to make more money instead, I'm starting to think that maybe I was wrong. I never thought I would say this, but for the first time ever, I kind of started to think that maybe... Dave Ramsey has a point. Even though everything was on auto payment, I never accounted for the fact that every single mortgage became its own mini ecosystem of thinking. Honestly, I didn't even think this would be a thing until I started selling off my real estate. I'm talking the ones with 2.875 % mortgages fixed for 30 years. And once those were sold, it just felt like... an odd sigh of relief. It was as though something was taking up mental space in my head that I didn't even know existed until it was gone. That is why when it comes to the final piece of paying off your loan, it really just comes down to freedom. Speaker 3 (24:03) I'm just going Speaker 5 (24:04) to slow clap that one. Speaker 1 (24:05) No, hold on. I have to say this. That's the first time I've seen this. And you're telling me about this. Like, I cannot, dude, I bet you didn't see this coming. I'm getting choked up. Here's why. Speaker 1 (24:19) Graham is somebody who I just love hanging out with, but also I have high respect for. But also Graham has a whole bunch, like people follow him because he's brilliant and he's smart and he's got very clear ideas on how, and he lives what he preaches, which is rare these days. The world will shift and the world that my kids are inheriting, that your kids are inheriting, will change when people have the courage to say, I was doing this, I had a lived experience, magic words, I was wrong, and here's what I'm doing now. And dude, just like, I applaud Graham for that level of character. That gives me a little sliver of hope in this world on fire we live in. for the world my kids are growing up in. Bravo, brother. That's awesome. Well, I Speaker 3 (25:07) got a real treat for you, John, because we have Graham on the line right now on video. Graham! What's going on, Graham? Speaker 1 (25:14) What's up, brother? Good. I wouldn't have said nice things if I knew you were on. Speaker 5 (25:19) I thought you knew I was on the entire time. You're like talking me on. I Speaker 1 (25:23) wasn't going to say nice things. Talking Speaker 5 (25:24) into my ear, and I'm like, man. Speaker 1 (25:26) How are you, man? I'm doing good. Awesome, dude. I Speaker 3 (25:30) got to know, this was not an April Fool's prank. You actually paid off your primary mortgage. Speaker 5 (25:36) So this started with some rental properties that I had. And I kept them for years because all of them were locked at like 2.8 % to 3.3%. And I kept them because I didn't want to give up that mortgage. Because to me, the mortgage was everything. And if inflation is 3 % to 5%, assuming they're not lying about those numbers. It could be way higher than that. It's free money. And I started selling off these properties. And oh my gosh, it never hit me until I looked at the debt category. Just go down. I was like, wait a second. This is just a weird weight off my chest. Even though they were all cash flowing, they all did fine. It was just something for me that was just a bit of a sigh of relief that it just felt good to see that number go down. And then I asked on Twitter, and I sent you this link, that I asked if anyone regretted paying off their mortgage early, even the people with low interest. And I want to say 98 % of people, not a single one was like, yeah, I have regrets. Everybody was like, yeah, I know I could have made more money in the markets. But just the feeling of having a paid off home, it just gave me a little more confidence, a little pep in the step. Speaker 3 (26:54) Made you a couple inches taller. Speaker 5 (26:56) I Speaker 3 (26:56) love it. Man, that's huge. We've argued about this for years, I feel like. Anytime I've been on Ice Coffee Hour, you've been on our show, we usually get into a debate about arbitrage and spreads. And I'm always like, man, it's more than about a spreadsheet. It's about living your life and risk and peace. And you guys were such like math logic people that I felt like I couldn't get through to you. So what finally did it? It wasn't me. Was it Dave Ramsey himself? No, it was Speaker 5 (27:24) really just paying off those rental properties. The feeling, yeah. It was the feeling of doing that and then realizing, oh my gosh, it's just like, I've gone to this arbitrage my entire life to like, not nickel and dime, but like, oh, if I could make an extra dollar over here and I could do this and move this, like I would do it because I always just look at the numbers. I'm like, the numbers make sense. But when I started to get that peace of mind of just like, eh, you know, maybe I'm not going to make as much money, but you know what? It's simpler. I don't have to think about it. It frees up some space for me to focus on something else. I'm not so stressed out all the time. It's just, that's a feeling that I never really appreciated until I want to say this last year. And it all started oddly enough because I had this rental property where it made sense for, it's so dumb. But I calculated that I could take a pledged asset line at like 4 point something percent and build out this basically guest house. And I was able to make like a 15 % cash on cash return on none of my own money. And I thought, well, man, this makes sense. I should do this. And it was the worst nine months of my life dealing with construction in Los Angeles. And then I realized, what? Oh, my God. For what? for what i i get to borrow this money over here and do this over here to make an extra it was like 14 grand a year that i thought was oh that's going to be free it was awful the amount of stress and headache that uh that went into i lost so much more money than i ever would have gained in years just from lost opportunity cost because my mind was not fully present and that's what i realized you know what i've taken this too far and i think there's a value to simplicity And peace of mind that I never calculated until that experience. Speaker 3 (29:17) Beautiful. So what would you tell someone? Because we get these calls often on the show of, I'm confused. Why should I pay this off when I can make more in the market? What would you tell those people out there who are hanging on to those low interest rate mortgages going, I could pay it off. I could pay extra, but I just feel like there's better opportunities. Speaker 5 (29:35) The thing is, mathematically, I do think that there are better opportunities. I mean, again, when you look at the numbers, it doesn't make sense on a primary residence, low interest rate mortgage. If you're taking the deduction on top of that, like, my gosh, that mathematically pencils out. I would say. for me, there is a quality of life improvement, but that doesn't also mean that you can't, you should be building also up an emergency fund. You should be maxing out retirement accounts. You should be investing. I don't like, I wouldn't take down the emergency fund and not invest for the sake of paying it down a mortgage. But I do think there's a value of peace of mind that comes with just having it paid off as long as it's not done at the detriment to everything else. And when I cited these surveys, by the way, it said that one of the biggest quality of life improvements. uh was also cash on hand yeah and so not having like zero emergency fund but you have a paid off house it's having cash on the side led to more peace of mind than even having a paid off property so i think there's something to be said about that yeah beautiful and otherwise i think uh you know peace of mind you got to calculate that hey Speaker 1 (30:44) bravo brother thanks for hanging out with not because you follow the ramsey plant but bravo for for choosing peace that's awesome man and uh Like, respect, man. Big time respect. Speaker 3 (30:55) We'll see you, Graham. All right, I'm going to end with this comment I left on the video, John, which is, my work on this earth is done. I've done it. I've evangelized the Ramsey plan successfully, even if it's subconsciously. I love that guy. And glad Graham's a friend. And way to go being debt-free, man. 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