Make A Plan Your Future Can Trust

The Ramsey Show

This episode of The Ramsey Show features hosts George Kamel and Dr. John Deloney addressing a wide range of caller financial dilemmas, from investment anxiety and late-start retirement

Key takeaways

• George Kamel advises a caller to invest consistently in low-cost index funds rather than chasing volatile alternatives like gold or crypto to effectively beat inflation long-term.
• Dr. John Deloney helps a 43-year-old caller structure a Roth IRA strategy, projecting over $800k growth by age 67 if he commits to investing $700 monthly.

Main topics

• Long-term investing vs. tangible assets
• Late-start retirement planning

Notable quotes

"Normal is broke and common sense is weird."

Conclusion

The episode reinforces that financial peace requires disciplined budgeting, transparent

Transcript preview

Speaker 4 (0:02) Brought to you by the EveryDollar app. Start budgeting for free today. Speaker 2 (0:12) Normal is broke and common sense is weird. So we're here to help you transform your life. From the Ramsey Network and the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio, this is The Ramsey Show. I'm George Campbell, joined by Dr. John Deloney. We're taking your calls at 888-825-5225. That's the only way to jump into the conversation. John is in Chicago up first. What's going on, John? Speaker 5 (0:35) Hey, good afternoon, gentlemen. Thanks for getting me on the line here. You bet, man. What's up? Okay, so my wife and I, we are in baby step three and looking to the future, wanting to put our money in the best place for growth, but also security. And, you know, if you talk to anybody, the state of the world right now, confidence in the dollar, we're just wanting to, you know, to make sure that it's in a place that's not just going to evaporate, basically. So wondering, is it worth investing in the stock market instead of... tangible assets, let's say gold, silver, land, that sort of thing. Speaker 1 (1:14) Great question, man. Thanks for asking that. I know that's in every internet news feed and lots of... Yeah, Speaker 2 (1:21) when you say everyone and everyone believes this, are you seeing headlines? Is this social media scrolling or is this people in your actual physical circles? Speaker 5 (1:30) It's more headlines, news feed. I think it's probably just coming through pretty heavily on what I'm seeing on social media and who I talk to in my workplace, that sort of thing. Speaker 1 (1:45) So I can speak. George is, man, he is the investment guru. I'm not. But I can speak to the... Last I checked, the dollar is actually up in the short term. Speaker 1 (2:00) Strangely, it has been pulled from the Reserve Bank on a percentage basis more than it has been in the past, which says that the rest of the world is saying, we don't know if we can trust you guys. Y'all owe a lot of money, like those kind of things. Speaker 1 (2:15) Even foreign currencies get... Speaker 1 (2:19) converted to dollars at some point. So all I have to say is you're talking about such a structural, it's kind of like, how do we prepare if suddenly we all start breathing hydrogen instead of oxygen? Right? Like it's, it would be such a shift. Speaker 1 (2:36) This is me personally. I don't have one penny in gold because if we switch from hydrogen to oxygen, I don't know what I would do with a bag of yellow rocks. You get what I'm saying? Right. I don't know that that would be the thing that saves me at that point because you're talking about such a sea change. It would have to be cataclysmic. It would be. It simply would be. If every country in the world stopped taking the dollar, you're talking such a cataclysmic shift that it's like getting hit by a meteorite. As one of my buddies who works in banking once said, he's like, dude, that's a meteorite situation. And so, but I do, man, I'm with you. And when I feel all this instability, all the uncertainty, like I've long joked, like that when I put money into mutual funds, when I put it into retirement accounts, I don't know if it's going to be there. You know what I mean? And that's just, that's called risk, right? And when I've got kids, I've got my own, like, man, I often am checking in with George, checking in with Dave, like, this is right, right? So that you're feeling, dude, I'm there with you. I get it, totally. And I think that's the risk part of investing. And whenever I'm looking at what could happen, honestly, the only thing, and it feels trite. George, the only thing I've got is to look back on history and say, here's how this has worked. And that's not always if, in fact, it's almost never a fail-proof safe, like a fail-safe way of looking at the future. But it's all I got. It's the tool I got, right? Speaker 2 (4:15) So there's two discussions here. One, the dollar is going to go to zero. The stock market will collapse. That is just not going to happen. So now we can talk about inflation. That's really what you're talking about. Hey, inflation. Speaker 5 (4:25) Trying to beat inflation. Yeah, inflation is dead. Speaker 2 (4:28) You're right. We should not keep our money under a mattress. Let's put it somewhere that's going to grow. But now you're saying I don't trust the stock market, and that's a separate, deeper discussion. I still think investing in Speaker 1 (4:38) the Speaker 2 (4:38) stock market is worth it. In fact, that's the only place I invest. I own my primary home free and clear, and I have my money in retirement and outside of retirement in index funds and mutual funds. My life is that simple. I have great confidence. And the S &P 500, which is the benchmark for the U.S. stock market, top 500 companies, it's up 12.5 % year to date. Even with everything happening in the world, I'm putting this in big air quotes, even with wars going on, inflation rampant, the U.S. economy just keeps on going. Speaker 1 (5:08) And will there be downturns? 1,000 % yes. That's the ride on a roller coaster. Could there be a 25 Speaker 2 (5:14) % dip? Speaker 1 (5:15) Sure, Speaker 2 (5:16) but you're not taking all your money out in a single year based on a dip. Speaker 2 (5:21) Right. So just ride the wave, man, because my money has grown exponentially in the stock market over the last, what, 12 years I've been investing. And so if you're not investing, you're extra screwed. The only way to beat inflation is to invest. But I would not do it in alternative assets and commodities like gold and crypto. I just personally don't do that. It's too volatile. If you're trying to reduce anxiety, that's not the play. Speaker 5 (5:45) Yeah. No, crypto has always been kind of a little... suspect for me. It hasn't made a whole lot of sense. Gold, that's one thing. Well, hindsight's 20 Speaker 2 (5:57) -20. If you invested in crypto, in Bitcoin 15 years ago, you wouldn't be calling the show. You would own the building. So it's just, I wish I could go back and get Uber on day one. But, you know, I just dollar cost average into the stock market. Same amount every month out of every paycheck. And it's boring and it's slow, but I sleep better. And the other piece is just turn off the headlines. What good are they doing you at this point? Speaker 1 (6:19) That's the part, and by the way, to branch off of George, I have bought land. That's a thing for me. Speaker 2 (6:26) Deloney loves dirt. Speaker 1 (6:27) I love dirt, yeah. Some Speaker 2 (6:28) call him a dirt bag, in fact. Speaker 1 (6:31) Quite a few people. But I do like it, and I like to tell myself, no, it's for recreation, for kids, it's for my friends when they come up. But also, it's kind of a little, if it all goes down, I got a place to go, right? But that's, I mean, I'm going to do that in the right way. I'm going to do that with cash. I'm going to do that after I've secured that I've got my own emergency fund for things that I know are going to happen, like the air conditioner is going to go out. I'm going to need a new fridge, things like that. And I'll tell you, the way I've handled, rightly or wrongly, The way I've handled the anxiety that you're expressing, that George is talking about, is I made a commitment when I started retirement funding. After a long conversation with the CFO of a big company back in Texas, when I was going to pull it all out and beat the market and do this and all that, is I'm going to put money in retirement and I'm committed to the end of that ride. Kind of like going to Disneyland, getting on the roller coaster. I'm just not going to jump off of it. So if there's not an end to this thing and we all fly off into space and then crash to the ground, I got on. Right. So I'm just not going to. I've committed. I'm putting it in there and I'm not going to take it out. So I'm just along for the ride now. Speaker 5 (7:53) That's encouraging. We've had our fair share of time not having what we need and want to make sure that our future is set up for success. The best way to do that seems to be the market. I really appreciate it. Also, Speaker 1 (8:15) double-click on that. The market, yes, long-term. The way to quell anxiety in the present is to not owe anybody any money. And I know that sounds cheesy because we're rams and that's all we ever say. If you don't owe anybody anything, you don't have a house payment, I promise you the anxiety overall goes down every single time. Speaker 2 (8:35) Yeah, you want to be on the right side of that, earning interest instead of paying it, and you will sleep better at night. Congrats on making it to baby step three. Keep going, man. Speaker 6 (8:58) Okay, George, we hear from so many people that are trying to live out the Ramsey plan, right? They're getting out of debt and everything. But the hard thing is there's not many banks out there that actually support the way we teach people to handle money. Speaker 2 (9:09) Yeah, most banks, they don't want you to win with money. So they charge a bunch of nuisance fees. There's all this fine print. And worst of all, they are pushing debt products at you nonstop. Speaker 6 (9:18) Yes, but the good thing is that Fairwinds isn't like most banks. They're not like the Speaker 2 (9:22) other guys. They're Speaker 6 (9:23) not like the other guys. Yeah, they are not pushing debt, and they actually want you to win with the baby steps. And so what's great, too, is they created the Smart Bundle for Ramsey fans, which includes a high-yield savings account and no monthly fee checking. Speaker 2 (9:37) Which is huge because it's rare to have a checking account tied to a high-yield savings account. You can get all of that with Fairwinds. And for the nerds out there, you can have 10 different high-yield savings accounts for different goals. So you got your emergency fund, the car upgrade fund, the vacation fund. The world is your oyster. So Speaker 6 (9:52) beautiful. And check out the debit card, the new one. The live like no one else debit card. Oh, Speaker 2 (9:57) that's Speaker 6 (9:57) beautiful. It's so beautiful. That's Speaker 2 (9:59) a Speaker 6 (9:59) conversation starter. It's so good. Well, and when you swipe or you tap, you know, every time you take it out of your wallet, you're remembering that you are living like no one else and you're being intentional with your money. Speaker 2 (10:07) I've been using Fairwinds for months and months now. I love their features, the app, the customer service. It is all so good and so aligned with the Ramsey principles. Speaker 6 (10:15) Absolutely. So y'all, we both bank at Fairwinds and we love their commitment to Ramsey values. So Speaker 2 (10:20) check it out. You can get that smart bundle. We're going to drop a link in the description. Or you can go to fairwinds.org slash Ramsey today. Speaker 6 (10:27) That's right. That's fairwinds.org slash Ramsey insured by the NCUA. Speaker 2 (10:49) Sarah's in Tampa, Florida up next. Sarah, welcome to The Ramsey Show. Speaker 3 (10:53) Hey, guys. Thank you so much for taking my call. Sure. Speaker 2 (10:56) How can we help? Speaker 3 (10:58) So I have an issue with my mom. Last year, she lost her job. And sadly, she has not been able to find work, even though she's been trying having interviews. The issue is that she will not change her spending habits. She won't budget. She won't listen to any advice. Trying to help her is like pulling a mule out of concrete. And my husband and I just don't know what to do. We've just kind of thrown up our hands and said, okay, she's just going to do whatever she wants to do. And we just don't know what to do. Speaker 1 (11:28) Is there anything other than throwing your hands up that you think you could do? Speaker 1 (11:35) I Speaker 3 (11:35) feel like we've exhausted everything to try to help her. We've sat down with her. Family members have sat down with her, family, friends. In the beginning of last year, she even did the financial piece, and that didn't change her spending habits even then when she had a job. We just don't know how to convince her to change her spending habits to make her situation better. Her only income is her Social Security, and she goes into the negative. Every single time. And yet she's crying. She doesn't have money for gas. And it's like, well, if you'd stop getting your nails done and buying expensive groceries, you would probably be able to have extra money. But she just, she won't listen. Does she have somebody, Speaker 1 (12:15) you or your siblings, does she have people bailing her out all the time? Speaker 3 (12:20) Um, I think she has like a longtime friend that I think she has asked for money from here and there. Um, she has asked to borrow money from us now and again. And then it's like, well, when I get my social security check, I'll pay you back. Um, did Speaker 1 (12:39) y'all give it to her? You know, Speaker 3 (12:39) stuff like that. Uh, we do only because we know that she does pay back when that check comes in, but, um, that's the extent of it. Speaker 2 (12:51) What does she make? Speaker 3 (12:54) Her Social Security is like $1,588 a month, somewhere around there. Speaker 2 (13:00) How does she pay rent or her mortgage? Speaker 3 (13:04) She pays it with her Social Security check and everything else. Like, she's constantly in the negative. Speaker 2 (13:11) And, Speaker 3 (13:11) you know, she gets behind on her bills. I'm confused how she's even Speaker 2 (13:15) paying you back for money she borrowed if she's in the negative every month just trying to cover her own bills. Speaker 3 (13:21) Yeah, because as soon as that check lands, like she'll pay us back the $40 we loaned her for gas money or whatever. And then, you know, we've even offered like, we'll manage your bills for you. Like, you know, just give us password. We'll take care of it. And she won't do it. Is Speaker 2 (13:36) she renting? Speaker 3 (13:38) She lives with us. So she's Speaker 2 (13:40) been Speaker 3 (13:40) living with us for the last four years. Well, Speaker 2 (13:42) you buried the lead there. So she's got free housing. Speaker 3 (13:44) Oh, I'm sorry. No, no, she does not. So she's not going to get, she's not going to be Speaker 2 (13:49) homeless. I'm just trying to figure out how do we just set her up to where she's got food, shelter, utilities, transportation, and anything else is by the wayside. Because here's the Speaker 1 (13:59) path toward like the starting line. for you and your husband not losing your own minds and your own marriage in this conflict is autonomy, agency, that's the nerd word. Y'all two are in the driver's seat. Y'all make the choices. Y'all make the decisions. And number two is choosing reality. Trafficking in, here's what is real. Not what we hope, not what we wish, all that kind of stuff. And so what you're telling me is she already lives with you. No matter what you do, she's not going to change. And so the only people that you can change right now are you and your husband. And you can't change him. You can change yourself. You can decide I'm going to show up as this person. The only thing I will ask you to do, I'll plead with you, is if you're going to give your mom money, A, don't ever loan it to her. Because then you start, even if you don't want to, you start eyeballing. Oh, you went and did this. Oh, you went and did that. Or why'd you buy this? You owe me 40 bucks. Like, don't put yourself in that position or her. If you're going to give her 50 bucks, give her 50 bucks. And I think it's best done at the beginning of like you and your husband sit down and say, okay, here's reality. What are we going to contribute and how much, if any? And then y'all sit down, clear as kind. You sit down with your mom and say, here's the new reality. We're going to give you $100 a month and you're going to live here. And we're moving on. Or we're going to let you live here rent-free because you're mom and we're not kicking you in the street. Or your time here is over. You've got to live with your decision. So you all get to where you're going to be, own your decisions, and then based in reality, and then move forward. Because right now what you're doing is you're banging your head up against a problem. And I can't think of a few things other than the loss of somebody through death or separation. I can't think of many more things that are more heartbreaking than when... Somebody you love needs help and they won't accept your help. It's heartbreaking. It's a season of grief. I would love to love my mom in this way and she refuses to allow it. So then after that point, all I can choose is who I'm going to be and what I'm going to do next. Speaker 2 (16:12) Right. Was there any agreement when she moved in of here's how this is going to go? Speaker 3 (16:18) Yes. So we sat down with her and we made a written agreement that the first year with us would, yeah, well, because she has decades long of bad spending habits. So the agreement was the first year would actually be rent free. The deal was, though, we would have to manage her bills and help her get out of debt, which we did. We helped her, you know, with her money because she had a job. But like we made sure that her bills got paid on time, no car payments. So she doesn't have any debt. So that's good. But then after that first year, she would start paying rent and contributing to the household. And so that was our written agreement. And she stuck to it. But like I said, she lost her job a year ago, hasn't been able to find work, but she still gets her nails done. She still does streaming services, just things that she doesn't need. And Speaker 1 (17:08) so on the other side of her own Speaker 3 (17:10) situation, on the other Speaker 1 (17:11) side of any written agreement, There has to be an or what. Speaker 1 (17:16) So what is y'all's or what? Speaker 1 (17:20) You're getting a Victor? Speaker 6 (17:24) No. Okay. And Speaker 1 (17:25) listen, I wouldn't evict my mom either. So there's no shade here. I just want you to own like, we had this plan, but we didn't think through the or what. And basically your mom's calling your bluff. Speaker 1 (17:39) They're not going to kick me out. And if you're not going to kick her out, then don't kick her out. But don't sit there and stew over we have this agreement that she's not following because y'all didn't have the or what attached to that agreement. Speaker 8 (17:52) Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 1 (17:53) Dude, I applaud you. You're a hero to me for even sitting down and getting a written agreement in the first place. Most people never do that with their aging parents, so good for you. Are you guys in a good place financially? Speaker 3 (18:07) I mean, We do make good money. However, we do have debt of our own. We are doing the snowball effect. My husband has two jobs. I'm trying to get a second job so we can pay down that rent. We would love to, and to be clear too, we invited her to live with us when a situation became difficult for her. We felt that it was the biblical right thing to do. So that was why we even agreed for her to live with us in the first place. But we're trying to get our own debt paid off. We would love to get in a place financially where we could just support her so she could just live her life and not even have to worry about, I mean, she's 77. She should be retired. But she doesn't have retirement. She doesn't have anything because of the decisions she's made throughout her life. We would love to be able to just support her, but we can't. So we're in the baby step number one. We're trying to snowball our debt working two jobs. And Speaker 2 (19:02) she knows all of this? You've sat down and sat all this to her. She understands the full situation. Speaker 3 (19:08) Yes, she does. Speaker 2 (19:09) And does she have her own debit card? How is she spending money? Does she have access to a credit card? Speaker 3 (19:15) I don't know if she has access to a credit card, but she does have her own debit card. Yeah. Speaker 2 (19:20) Okay. I would make sure she doesn't have access to a credit card. That way we can limit the damage. And I would consider creating a situation where you give her like her envelope of her budget for the month with cash or your own debit card where you can control the funding of it so that she doesn't damage her own finances. That might be a good compromise where she still has some autonomy, but she's not going to go out there blowing her Social Security check every single month. Speaker 3 (19:43) So to be clear, we should kind of do an or else, you know, kind of situation with her to basically force her hand because nothing she's done has Speaker 2 (19:53) allowed Speaker 3 (19:54) us. And you can do that because she lives Speaker 2 (19:56) with you. You are holding some cards here. Speaker 1 (19:58) Yeah, it's either make peace with your situation and stop going to bed angry. That's a choice. Or yeah, have an or what? We're going to give you $50 at the beginning of a month and there will be no more money. Don't ask. Right. And so you get to control what you do in this situation. And by the way, I hate this for you. I hate this for everyone involved. Speaker 6 (20:34) Hey guys, it's Rachel Cruz. If you're working the baby steps, every major expense deserves a second look. And healthcare is one of the biggest expenses in most families' budgets. And that is why I recommend that you check out Christian Healthcare Ministries. CHM isn't insurance. It's a health cost-sharing ministry. That means members help pay one another's medical bills. And they've been serving Christians since 1981. CHM programs start at just $115 a month. And here's why that matters. If you are paying more than you need to for healthcare, that money could be going toward paying off debt, building your emergency fund, or reaching your next financial goal. And your monthly cost isn't based on your medical history or where you live. Y'all, a lot of families find CHM gives them more room in the budget. That's why so many members say they're better with CHM. And right now, new members can receive a 50 % credit towards their first month of membership. Go to chministries.org slash budget and use promo code Ramsey. That's chministries.org slash budget and promo code Ramsey. Speaker 2 (21:57) James is in St. Louis up next. James, welcome to the show. How can we help? So I Speaker 5 (22:02) am wondering, I have nothing invested. I'm wondering if I should, 43 years old, I'm wondering if I should do a Roth IRA at this point or just an individual brokerage account. Speaker 2 (22:15) Why are you using both of those options? Why the brokerage account? Speaker 5 (22:20) The thing I don't like about an IRA is I don't like not being able to get to the money if I need it. Speaker 2 (22:29) Well, you're 43. What would you use the money for before you're 60? Speaker 5 (22:34) Well, it'd be one of those, like, if I lose my job or something and need it, then I just want to have access to it, basically. Speaker 2 (22:43) Okay, so in case of emergency, you'd want to have some cash. Can we build you an emergency fund that does that in a high-yield savings account? Speaker 5 (22:50) I Speaker 5 (22:53) I currently have 10,000 saved. Okay. And I have no debt. Speaker 2 (23:00) Good. So what would be six months of expenses for you? Let's say you lost your job and for six months you couldn't find one. Speaker 5 (23:08) I would need... Speaker 5 (23:11) I had that somewhere and I lost that. Speaker 2 (23:16) 20 grand, 30 grand? Speaker 5 (23:19) It would actually be... Speaker 5 (23:23) The 10,000 would cover six months. Speaker 2 (23:26) That's not mathematically possible. Unless you have Speaker 1 (23:30) no house payment, no car payment. Right, I have no house payment. Is the house paid off? Speaker 5 (23:38) Yes. Speaker 2 (23:38) Wow. Okay. So you're in a good spot then because you can invest as much as you want. What's your household income? Speaker 5 (23:46) It is $40,000. Speaker 2 (23:49) Okay. So $40,000 a year. And how do you have a paid-off house? I'm curious. Speaker 5 (23:54) I would be an inheritance. Speaker 2 (23:58) Okay. All right. So we recommend investing 15 % until the house has paid off. But after that, you can invest even more. So in your situation where you want to make up for lost time, I would be investing into a Roth IRA to start. And 15%, you'd be right there to max it out. So you can start with a Roth IRA. Do you have an employer retirement plan as well? Speaker 5 (24:22) I don't have one set up. They do offer one. Do you know what it is? But I don't. I don't know. Okay. Speaker 2 (24:30) So that's part of your homework. Thing one is find out what your employer retirement plan is. They might have a Roth 401k option, and that'll just come right out of your paycheck before it hits your bank account. And I love that idea because you're sort of forcing the discipline. Speaker 2 (24:45) Okay. But a Roth IRA is a great option that's not tied to your employer. You can just go open one. And if you want help with that, you can reach out to a SmartVestor Pro at ramseysolutions.com to walk you through that. But the goal here is we want to have money when we can't work anymore with tax advantages. So the Roth is fantastic for that because you're going to pay the taxes now, but then you won't pay taxes again. So think of that as net income in retirement. Speaker 2 (25:09) And I like that it's locked away until 60 plus because I don't want you robbing that brokerage account that was supposed to be for James' retirement all because an emergency happened. So that's why I'm recommending you have a bigger emergency fund because all it takes is one or two things happening at once for you to blow 10K just like that. Speaker 1 (25:28) Yeah, that's my concern for you, brother, is having $10,000 as your full emergency fund. Like man, I had to replace my entire central air conditioning unit two months ago Maybe a month and a half ago and it was way more than that. You know, I'm saying like just a roof or like Man getting some sort of cushion. What do you do for a living where you where you make 40 grand? I'm at a Walmart distribution center. Okay. Is there any room for advancement there or for overtime to where you could just hit the gas for a year and get yourself a little more cushion across the board? Speaker 1 (26:06) Um... A little bit of overtime, but not really a lot. Okay. Is there an ability for you to do ride share in the evenings? Like if you listen to the show, you hear these heroic stories of folks who just paused their life for 18 months and they work two jobs, three jobs, four jobs. Speaker 1 (26:26) do janitorial work at the church on the weekends. Then they go drive rideshare and then they work full time. Then they take whatever overtime they can get, but they just do it for a season, a short maniacal sprint to get themselves out of this cycle of, um, always being on the edge to get some margin in your life. You know what I mean? Just some peace. Speaker 1 (26:48) Okay. Speaker 2 (26:49) How much margin do you have currently every month? If I said, hey, after all the bills are paid, how much could you invest? Speaker 5 (26:56) I could... Speaker 5 (27:01) I could do about... Speaker 5 (27:04) $700 a month. Speaker 2 (27:06) Okay. Can I plug that into a calculator to show you what would happen if you invested that into a Roth IRA? Yes. All right. So you're 43 right now. Let's say you retire at 67. Is that fair from your late start? Speaker 5 (27:19) Yes. Speaker 2 (27:19) Okay. $700 a month from the age of 43 to the age of 67. I'm going to go with a 10 % annual rate of return. If you invest it well into mutual funds and index funds, that's what you'll see. I'm going to hit calculate. You would have $832,000. And if that's in a Roth account, act like that's net income because you're not going to pay taxes on that. Pretty impressive. Okay. Considering you only put in 200 grand of that. Over $600,000 was just compound growth. Now, let's say you could invest $1,000. Can we aim a little higher? Speaker 2 (27:52) Yes. That would turn into $1.2 million almost. Now we're talking. Between that and Social Security, you might be able to retire with some dignity. So that will just help you kind of get in your head what it's going to take to retire at 67 as a millionaire. And it's very much possible. But I want to dig into more of what do you want from life in the meantime? Speaker 2 (28:14) Are you single? Yes. Okay. So paint me a picture of James five years from now. If I could wave a magic wand, what does his life look like? Speaker 5 (28:26) I would be... Speaker 5 (28:31) Are you still single? Are you still doing Speaker 2 (28:33) the same job? Speaker 5 (28:36) Probably not doing the same job, but I would still be single, yes. Speaker 2 (28:40) Okay, that's intentional. I'm Speaker 5 (28:42) not looking to start a family. Speaker 2 (28:46) So at least we have some homework on the career side. It sounds like there's something that you'd rather be doing that you haven't pursued yet. Is that fair? Yes. And what is that thing? Do you know? Speaker 5 (28:57) So I have been trying to learn coding and iOS development. Speaker 2 (29:05) Okay. Speaker 5 (29:05) And what have you been doing to learn? I have been doing online courses and trying to find mentors and stuff like that to teach how to do it. Speaker 2 (29:17) Cool. So that might be a future where five years from now, you're a software engineer, developer, making 80K. And as you can see, that would multiply the numbers here, as we say, for retirement. So the more money you save... the more compound growth can take hold. And the longer time horizon you have, the more that will grow. So that's the simple factors of retirement. The only time I'd recommend a brokerage account for that kind of flexibility you're talking about is if someone, let's say, wanted to retire at 55 and have a sort of bridge to get them there. But in your case, I think you're going to need to be working past 60. And therefore, I would take the tax advantages of that Roth account or even traditional account to make that happen. But John, there's a lot here. A lot of people listening to the show feel like they have a late start. They're in their 30s, their 40s. They haven't invested yet. And I love this example from James to show you that you can still retire a millionaire, a million dollars in an account, just by starting at 43 and putting in 700 bucks a month. Now, some people go, well, George, it must be nice to have $700. And I go, hey, add up your debt payments for me. Like, okay, that's car payments, 500 student loans or another 400 of the credit cards. Okay. We just found a thousand bucks right there that could be used for investing. If we decided we're going to go hard at this debt, knock it out. Speaker 1 (30:29) Right. And man, it feels so obtuse these days because it's so, it is hard out there, man. It is. I just filled my truck up yesterday and it put me in such a bad mood. Right. It was just, and I know you and your gas free vehicle that drives itself. We Speaker 2 (30:44) also Speaker 1 (30:44) have a Speaker 2 (30:45) minivan, John. Oh, minivan. Nice. Yeah. Speaker 1 (30:47) So, man, I get it. And... There's that old saying like conflict deferred is conflict amplified You're gonna have to face the music now and or at some point you want to face it when there's some government entity saying this is gonna be your Retirement home in your bed, and this is who you're gonna share it with whatever If that's gonna come or I'm gonna not buy this car. I'm gonna not do this I'm not gonna have fancy pants things at 43 47 57 because I got a late start I'm going to do the small things now that are inconveniences, that are uncomfortable, so that I've got autonomy. At some point, that's coming. I'd rather own it as soon as possible and make whatever choices I have to make right now so that I'm the driver's seat later. Speaker 4 (31:44) When you take your car to the shop, you're probably thinking two things. How much is this going to cost me, and is it going to get done right? 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