Behavior Matters More Than Math

The Ramsey Show

This episode of The Ramsey Show focuses on the critical role of behavior in achieving financial stability, using real-life stories from callers to

Key takeaways

• Financial crises are often rooted in behavioral patterns rather than mathematical deficits.
• Bankruptcy does not fix underlying emotional or systemic issues; it only addresses debt.

Main topics

• Behavior vs. Math in Financial Success
• Impact of Medical Debt and Disability on Finances

Notable quotes

"Bankruptcy didn't fix any of that. And really, that's kind of what caused you to get here."

Conclusion

The episode concludes by reinforcing that true financial freedom comes not from numbers alone but

Transcript preview

Speaker 8 (0:04) Brought to you by the EveryDollar app. Start budgeting for free today. Speaker 8 (0:18) Normal is broke and common sense is weird, so we're here to help you transform your life. From the Ramsey Network and the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio, this is The Ramsey Show. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, Rachel Cruz, Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author, co-host of the Smart Money Happy Hour on the Ramsey Network, and my daughter is my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Andy's in Indianapolis. Hi, Andy, how are you? Good. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? Yeah, well, Speaker 6 (0:52) I'm 50 years old, married, two kids, just getting one off to college here just now. And we're in a situation where leading into last year, I had corporate buyouts cap my pay and really cut my pay significantly. And in the process of trying to make up that income, My wife became severely ill, and we're heading towards disability. So she's definitely disabled now. We're looking at—she basically—she should have been on disability years ago, but we've had trouble getting her there due to various reasons with her sickness and diagnosis and whatnot. So we've kind of made it this far trying to put bandages on everything, two credit cards maxed out. We— sort of foolishly took the opportunity to take mortgage forbearance. We were kind of doing it at three months at a time. And through the end of the mortgage forbearance here this year, they will not defer our payments. So they're asking for $13,000 to keep us out of foreclosure. We weren't aware that after six months they can't defer payments, but we're in a situation where we're going to file Chapter 13 bankruptcy and restructure, but I wanted to talk to you first. Speaker 2 (2:14) Andy, I'm so sorry. That's a lot. Speaker 1 (2:17) So you have $13,000 that you're behind on your home today. Correct. And they want it by the end of the year. Speaker 6 (2:28) They want it by the end of this month. Speaker 1 (2:33) Okay, so that's a train that's been coming down the track for a while. You've seen it coming for a while, though. Speaker 6 (2:43) Absolutely, yeah. Speaker 1 (2:44) Yeah, okay. But now it's on. We Speaker 8 (2:47) thought it was going to be temporary. What is your home worth? Speaker 8 (2:53) About $350,000. Speaker 1 (2:54) $350,000? $350,000? Correct. Okay, and what is the mortgage balance? What's it take to pay it off today? Speaker 6 (3:02) $150,000. Speaker 1 (3:03) Okay. All right. And what do you make now? Speaker 6 (3:11) So I Speaker 1 (3:12) just started Speaker 6 (3:12) a new job about a year and a half ago. I used to be on commission, so that was always another thing, too, with trying to manage cash flow. But I'm on salary now at $90,000 a year. Speaker 1 (3:21) Okay. That's good news. All right. And you have two credit cards. Total of $18,000. The balances on those are what? $18,000. Total? Speaker 6 (3:34) Total. Speaker 1 (3:34) Okay. All right. And how much on your cars? How much do you owe on your cars? Speaker 6 (3:40) One car is paid off. One car we owe $8,000 on, pay $278 a month for Speaker 1 (3:45) it. Okay. All right. And what other debts? Speaker 6 (3:52) We have $2,000 in medical bills. Usually that's kind of a standing number, it seems to the Rove. I have an $8,000 deductible right now. Previous years we had a $15,000 deductible that we would max out, and then I re-fied the house twice in the last handful of years. Why? Just to pay off credit cards that we had used for medical expenses, which Speaker 1 (4:16) I Speaker 6 (4:16) know is extremely foolish. Speaker 1 (4:17) Okay. Speaker 6 (4:19) But we keep thinking, you know, we thought it was temporary. You know, we kept thinking she was going to get better, you Speaker 1 (4:24) know. Okay. Speaker 1 (4:27) Well, the reason I'm asking all these questions is it's the only way I can get to your answer. A Chapter 13 bankruptcy takes the balances that you have and you have to pay the minimum normal payment plus something on the arrearage on the car and on the house for 60 months. Speaker 1 (4:52) For five years. Okay. Your unsecured debt can be paid back on a formula that they use when they're calculating it. Some percentage of the 18,000 would be reduced. So pretend like they gave up half of it. So you had $9,000 that would be in the five-year plan as well. Speaker 6 (5:11) Okay. Speaker 1 (5:12) So you're going to be in there for five years and you're going to pay every dime that you owe on the house. It just spreads it out. That's all it does. Okay? There's no deal. There's no back of the mortgage. So that $13,000 is going to be spread out over 60 months plus your regular house payment. So in Chapter 7 bankruptcy, you're going to have your regular house payment plus – or Chapter 13. You have your regular house payment plus something on this $13,000, whatever $13,000 divided by 60 is. Okay? Mm-hmm. So – Here's what happens, that 78 % of the Chapter 13s in America fail. The people don't make it through the 60 months because they can't make the payments. Speaker 1 (5:59) And we already knew that because they couldn't make the payments. And that's what put them here. You follow me? And so it's like when you refinance the house and didn't change anything, and now you've got new credit card debt after that. Okay? So because you didn't change anything, you didn't fix what the actual problem was, you just treated the symptom. And that's what the bankruptcy does. So I always try to figure out a way if there's anything we can do to not file Chapter 13. because it is a bankruptcy, and then for the rest of your life, if you're filling out any form anywhere that says, have you ever filed bankruptcy? Yes, I have. I filed a Chapter 7 in 1988, and for the rest of my life, I get to answer, yes, I have filed bankruptcy. So I don't recommend bankruptcy. I try to figure out a way to avoid it where I can, if at all possible. So let's pretend that you paid the car payment. You got on beans and rice, rice and beans, and you worked two jobs or three jobs more. Speaker 2 (6:59) If you didn't Speaker 1 (7:00) pay a dime on the credit cards and you stacked up cash, I bet you could scrape together the $13,000 before the foreclosure actually occurs. Speaker 2 (7:08) Which would be how long? Speaker 1 (7:09) Probably six months. Speaker 6 (7:13) Right, I see. Speaker 1 (7:15) Get current on that and then go work on your credit cards. Your credit is going to be damaged, but not damaged as much as if you file bankruptcy. Speaker 2 (7:22) And Andy, I'm assuming you have nothing in retirement, right? No 401ks? Speaker 1 (7:26) We emptied that years Speaker 6 (7:27) ago with our diagnosis, yeah. What's her diagnosis? Speaker 6 (7:32) Chronic neuro Lyme disease. Speaker 8 (7:34) Oh, wow. Speaker 1 (7:35) Okay. It's Speaker 6 (7:35) been controversial in the previous years. We Speaker 1 (7:39) lost a team member to the disability. We didn't lose his life, but he lost him to disability on exactly the same thing a few years back. Oh, man, that's harsh. Well, you remember the stimulus Speaker 6 (7:52) we received way back when, the Biden stimulus? We spent that on a $3,000 test just to confirm whether treatments were working or not. Wow. for example, out of pocket. We're hoping that changes. We're hoping insurance gets better. But she does not have insurance right now either. Speaker 1 (8:08) When I filed, I heard my attorney say something loud and clear, and I always say it to folks, is after you file bankruptcy, you're still in the exact same position you were except for the debt. So all the things that are draining your emotions. All the pull of this medical, all the exhaustion of fighting and fighting and fighting against the system is all still there. Bankruptcy didn't fix any of that. And really, that's kind of what caused you to get here. So what I would do is find out how long it takes for an attorney to do a foreclosure in your state and see if I can't scrape together the 13 by going all hands on deck before the foreclosure and avoid the bankruptcy. That's what my first goal would be. Speaker 8 (9:01) As your business grows, everything becomes more complex. There was a time when Ramsey Solutions had too many disconnected systems and not enough visibility across the business. We wasted too much time chasing information instead of making decisions. That's why we got NetSuite. NetSuite brings your financials, inventory, CRM, and more. Together in one place. More than 44,000 businesses run on NetSuite, including Ramsey. And now they're taking the next step with NetSuite. Next, making it easier to put AI to work across your entire business. NetSuite Next helps you make the most of your time, automating routine work like forecasting demand and following up on overdue accounts. With NetSuite Next, AI is built into everything you do, so you can ask it questions just like when you're talking to a member of your team. And right now, you can try NetSuite Next. for free. If your revenue is at least seven figures, go to netsuite.ai slash Ramsey. That's netsuite.ai slash Ramsey. Speaker 1 (10:33) Carrie is in Minneapolis. Hi, Carrie. How are you? Good. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? Speaker 4 (10:41) Well, we have $50,000 owed on a credit card, $17,000 on a car, and we're getting a tax return of $17,000. I want to put that tax return towards the car and get it done. My husband wants to put it towards the credit card because it's a higher interest rate. What say you? Speaker 1 (11:02) Well, you know what we say. Speaker 1 (11:05) We say pay it off smallest to largest. You knew that, right? Speaker 4 (11:10) Yes, I knew that. My husband just wants to do that credit card so bad. Speaker 1 (11:15) Well, I would not do that. I would pay off the card. Can I be smart aleck for a minute? If we used his plan, we'd be where you are. Speaker 1 (11:27) Exactly. Okay, so I don't need his advice. Speaker 8 (11:30) His opinion is invalid based on the pattern of his life. No, thank you. So now my SmartDoc's done. Okay. Speaker 8 (11:41) You win the argument, Carrie. That's the bottom line. The Speaker 2 (11:44) top win for me is that he wants to pay off debt. We have so many people that call in that can't even get their spouse on board. So arguing about which debt to pay off, it's a good argument to have. But the umbrella, it's a positive. I'm glad that you guys are on the same page with that. Agreed. Agreed. Speaker 1 (12:00) Now that I got my smart aleck out, I completely agree. So anyway, the... Yeah, I would pay off the car. And actually, here's the weird thing. I've done this a bunch of times because his angst is that the interest rate on the credit card is so much higher than the interest rate on the car. Speaker 3 (12:19) Correct? Yep. Speaker 1 (12:21) That's the burr in his saddle. And so if you said, do you have any idea what these two interest rates are? Do you happen to know? Speaker 4 (12:29) The car is like five point something, and the credit card is 18 something. Speaker 1 (12:36) Okay, so it's Speaker 4 (12:37) a Speaker 1 (12:37) 15 swing or 13 swing, okay? So if we do round numbers and just to make it real easy to say, let's say it's a 10 swing. It's a little more than that, but not much. It's $1,700 a year. Speaker 1 (12:51) is the difference, 10 % on $17,000. Okay? Okay. So it's costing you, to do it my way, $1,700 for the year. However, you don't have a car payment anymore, and your car payment is what? Speaker 4 (13:09) About $500, over $500. Speaker 1 (13:11) Okay, and your household income is what? Speaker 4 (13:15) Well, he brings home about $12,000 a month. Speaker 1 (13:18) Okay. And $50,000 means that if we don't have a car payment, we should pay it and we make that kind of $12,000 a month, we should pay off $50,000 in about 10 or 11 months. Speaker 2 (13:33) Oh, okay. Speaker 1 (13:34) So it Speaker 2 (13:35) won't even be a full year. Speaker 1 (13:36) So it won't even be $1,700 difference. And the other difference is that you cannot calculate. Speaker 1 (13:47) The sense that we have traction, the sense that we've done something big with this money and what that does to the momentum towards paying off the rest of the debt, that's hard to put into simple mathematics. And all we're doing is simple mathematics. How much is the Speaker 2 (14:06) credit card payment every month? I'm just curious. I'm 50,000. Speaker 4 (14:11) Well, the interest would come up to almost $600 a month if we just paid the Speaker 1 (14:16) minimum. Yeah. So you're going to put, I mean, you need to put $5,000. Yeah, without a car payment, you need to put $5,000 a month on the credit card and be done within about 10 months, give or take. And so it's going to cost you about $1,700. $1,700 was a round down, so we can actually be correct now. And yet. Speaker 1 (14:38) It's also got the highest probability of actually succeeding. And so having taught people this for 30 years, having done it myself, having literally gotten tens of millions of people out of debt, I'm going to encourage you to do it that way. Speaker 2 (14:50) Yeah. Carrie, have you guys started the process? You said that this is going to be a tax refund check of $17,000. How much are you guys throwing in debt right now, the car and the credit card? How much are we what? How much are you throwing at the car right now? I mean, are you guys paying off debt right now? Are y'all waiting on that check? Speaker 4 (15:07) Well, I wouldn't say we're actively like rice and beans paying off debt right now. So we're kind of waiting on that check. But this check has gotten me motivated to do the rice and beans and rice thing. You know, like let's get it done because it's the momentum. It's I see something can happen. Sure. Totally. Totally. Yeah. So Speaker 1 (15:32) $500 plus the $600 that you're already paying is $1,100. So I'm asking you to come up with another $3,900 out of your budget, and you'll be done in 10 lousy months. And of course, you've cut up the credit card or you will tonight. And the two of you are on the same page and everything else. So overall, let's give him an 8 out of 10 because he's under the umbrella of husband that wants to get out of debt. Yay. Like Rachel said, that's a big win. That's a huge breakthrough. So at that point, then we're only arguing about concepts, which is a fun thing to argue about. Which played a call to win the Super Bowl? These are good arguments, right, that we get to have this question. Speaker 6 (16:10) And Speaker 1 (16:11) so it's a good question. good thing, but I would and we would tell you to pay off your smallest to largest. So, Rachel, here's the interesting thing, okay? Let's go ahead and throw out the rest of it because everybody out there, this is all the crap we get on Tic Tac and Reddit and all the other stuff, that the debt snowball is not mathematically correct and that the avalanche method that some people talk about where you pay off highest interest rate to smallest interest rate is mathematically correct and you will get out of debt faster. The answer to that is that you're wrong because your math formula is incomplete. If you learn how to do sophisticated mathematics, you have to include probability of completion. The number of people that complete the debt snowball because it gives them a positive feedback loop is over 10x the number of people that actually complete the avalanche because the avalanche is emotionally, relationally hard to do because you don't get traction. You don't have something saying way to go, way to go, way to go. And every time you pay off that little debt, you get a way to go feedback loop. And that way to go feedback loop keeps you in and increases your chance of actually finishing the freaking program and getting out of debt instead of having some kind of mathematical theory that you do nothing with and you get paralysis of the analysis. And so when you add in probability of completion, the debt snowball is far superior to the avalanche mathematically. But now we've actually done some sophisticated mathematics instead of sixth grade math, which is how most people do their math. And that's what gets them broke. So in her case, it actually is more expensive. What I just told her to do is going to cost them more money. It's going to cost them about $1,500 more, maybe $1,700 more, somewhere in there to do it the way I just outlined if she does exactly what we just told her to do and if he does exactly what we just told him to do. That normally is not the case, though. Normally, when you run the math out, it's like a month and a half, two months difference on how fast you get out of debt if you work the avalanche precisely and you completed it, which almost no one does. Speaker 2 (18:27) Well, people do. I mean, they do. But the Speaker 1 (18:29) probability is much lower. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 2 (18:31) And Speaker 1 (18:32) so and that's why when MIT did a study, they figured out that personal finance and they came back and said on the front page of Time magazine, Ramsey's right. You know, because the debt snowball works because of the behavior aspects of personal finance. You're modifying behavior. You're not fixing math. Well, and Speaker 2 (18:50) always the joke is if you're $50,000 in credit card debt, you wouldn't be there if you were doing math in the first place with your bank account, you know. Speaker 1 (18:57) Which is kind of what I just did a minute ago when I was abusing it. But, yeah, if your math was so good, you wouldn't be here. So, you know, that's the thing. The debt snowball is superior because you understand that personal finance, including saving, including investing, is more behavior-based than it is actual math-based. Another example of that is in our millionaire study. When we studied 10,000 millionaires, we found they weren't that great at picking mutual funds. Their mutual funds were good to okay. They weren't bad, but they weren't the best. The difference was that they actually freaking put money in them instead of talking about it. Speaker 8 (19:40) That's the difference. So the behavior matters more than the math. Speaker 5 (20:16) Hey, George Camel here. 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Embrace something that's proven. Speaker 1 (22:36) Check out EveryDollar for free. You can download it in the App Store or Google Play. EveryDollar. Matt's in Riverside, California. Speaker 8 (22:45) Hey, Matt, how are you? Dave, I'm doing well, Speaker 3 (22:47) but I got myself in a financial predicament with my father-in-law. I just can't figure out how to get out of. Prior to my wife and I getting married, he purchased us a house for a million dollars cash. And he pulled ahead $200,000 of our inheritance, leaving an $800,000 balance for us to pay off in a mortgage. But he said he would help us out by just only charging us a 3 % interest rate until the balance is paid off on a 15-year mortgage. So that's a lot of money. But I have no documented equity or ownership in the house for which I pay a majority of the mortgage, the maintenance, the repairs, the upgrades. And I find myself just digging myself every month into this deeper hole that I possibly one day if something bad happens, I will just have no equity. Have Speaker 2 (23:41) you talked to him about it, Matt? Speaker 3 (23:43) I have, to which he said to trust him and everything will work out. Speaker 1 (23:50) No, thank you. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. So how old is he? He's 70. Okay. Let's pretend that his heart skips a beat as he's driving down the road, which could easily happen to a 70-year-old, and he loses consciousness and goes across the lane and hits someone head-on, and they die. Speaker 1 (24:15) He's going to get sued for millions and millions of dollars. And it's going to be a lien on the property that he owns. You're screwed. And he has put it in a trust in order to protect it. It does not protect it from that. Okay. This is absolutely bogus. This is controlling beyond belief. No. No, I'm not going forward with this. Would Speaker 2 (24:40) it be, what, an LLC that protects it in that case? Speaker 1 (24:42) Nothing that'll protect it. I mean, the LLC is owned by the guy. You can go after the LLC shares. So the property, if you're going to pay payments on it, needs to be in your name. There's no excuse for it not being. Speaker 1 (24:57) Trust me, it's not an answer. Speaker 3 (24:59) And he's worried that I would take the property potentially from his daughter, and I haven't nearly paid my half or a fair share of it. So how can we... How long have you been married? Speaker 1 (25:12) We've been married over one year. Okay. So here's what I'm going to do. I mean, you guys do what you want to do, but this is not tenable for me. Okay? I'm not going to live like this. So I'm sorry. I shouldn't have done this deal. It's turned out to be a really, really bad idea, and I wished I hadn't done it. And so we're going to undo it. We're going to let you have your house, and we're going to go buy a house. Or we're going to refinance this, and we're going to put the $800,000 mortgage in our name at 6 % and 5.5 % right now, and we're going to pay you off, and you're going to put the house in our name. But we are not going to continue forward with the house only in your name, period. Speaker 2 (26:05) How will your wife handle that, Matt? Speaker 3 (26:08) She's not going to be too thrilled because that's going to increase the interest rate inadvertently for us. That wasn't necessary in her eyes. It's Speaker 1 (26:17) necessary because you don't own a house and you're so freaking vulnerable that it's ridiculous. Your father-in-law says, trust me, but he doesn't trust you. Speaker 8 (26:30) Mm-hmm. Yeah, it needs to go both ways. This is not cool. Speaker 2 (26:36) Yeah, and my fear, Matt, is that a 3 % interest rate is going to rattle your one-year marriage. You know what I mean? If your wife is already taking his side in a level of logic, right, of just math, just like, oh, I just want to save money, and not looking at the relational equity of what this is doing and then the potential risk of your home. Speaker 2 (26:59) Yeah, it's probably going to cause some waves, but I would say it's probably necessary. I'm going to cause some waves. I'm going to start out Speaker 1 (27:06) gentle and I'm going to turn it up. Yeah. Start out kind and honoring and say, I appreciate this. I know you've got good intentions. I love you and I appreciate this, but I simply am not going to go forward with this. It's not going to happen. Okay. It's not worth the 3 % savings. Your risk that you're taking is astronomical. Speaker 1 (27:28) It's ridiculous. It's a horrible deal for you. And Speaker 3 (27:33) I asked my wife if she was in the opposite role. If my family had purchased us a house and she was paying a majority of it, would she be comfortable in this deal? And she said she wouldn't be comfortable. Speaker 1 (27:45) Well, then we have to decide, are we going to leave our father and mother and cleave to our husband and cleave to our wife? It's an old-fashioned saying. You leave the father and cleave. It's Old English from the Old English Bible. But, yeah, you know, but we have to set up. Okay, who's running your house now, her dad or you guys? Speaker 2 (28:04) And, again, to me, I'm like this is a totally – I don't like the idea of people using family as a bank, right? People do this with student loans. They do it with mortgages. And it just always – it's always a little icky and weird. It just kind of changes the relationship. But the thing on top of it for Matt, for me, is like if you guys start having kids and you're building a family, the place that you call home that is supposed to be your home. That's why it doesn't make sense to me of his logic. This is your home and her home, his daughter's home. And why he doesn't give you all the dignity of putting your name on the title of following through with the plan that's already agreed to is odd to me. And his fear, I'm like. I'm a little offended if you're going to do this deal with me and be my banker and be the husband to your wife. And you can't trust me with it with a million dollar house. You know what I mean? Like, it's just like, oh, it just adds adds to the relational dynamic. Speaker 3 (29:03) Yeah. Yes, it does indeed. And that's why I kind of lose sleep over it. And I see as every month goes on, it's harder to bring up this conversation. Speaker 1 (29:10) Yeah. I think the two of you, you and your wife, need to sit down with a good therapist, a good financial counselor. I mean, a good marriage counselor and maybe your pastor, if you have one. And you guys need to talk it through and then you need to decide what you're going to do. And then. And you Speaker 2 (29:24) guys together. And as a unified front, you've got Speaker 1 (29:26) to present it to him. Speaker 2 (29:27) And yeah, together or her. We're Speaker 1 (29:30) either going to refinance this and get it out of your name and put it into our name, or we're going to hand you the keys and we're going to move. Because we're not going forward. And listen, don't accept a mortgage from him either. If he says, okay, I'll put it in your name and I'll just put a mortgage on it. No, I do not want to owe this man money. This has got a bad vibe on it. The best thing you can do for your wife and your marriage is for this guy not to be between you anymore. And I Speaker 8 (30:02) think his intentions are good. I don't think his Speaker 1 (30:04) intentions are bad. I just think he's emotionally immature. Speaker 1 (30:10) I would never look at Winston Cruz and say, I can't put this in your name because I don't trust you. After I handed my daughter's hand to him. That's what Speaker 2 (30:20) I'm saying. It's so odd. Speaker 8 (30:22) I gave him the most precious thing I have on the planet. I trust you. One Speaker 2 (30:26) of Speaker 8 (30:26) my daughters. I Speaker 2 (30:26) don't trust you with a house. But I don't Speaker 1 (30:28) trust you with a stupid house. Speaker 2 (30:30) Oh, it's backwards. Speaker 1 (30:31) No, thank you. It's backwards. That's just emotionally. Speaker 2 (30:35) Oh, Matt, I'm sorry. And your wife. I'm like, this Speaker 1 (30:38) is going to be a hard process. Speaker 2 (30:39) But Speaker 8 (30:39) dude, it's going to be good Speaker 2 (30:40) for you guys. If you guys get through this. Speaker 8 (30:42) Choose the conflict today because the one that's laying out there 10 years from now is much bigger. Speaker 5 (31:14) If you're shopping online, and these days everybody does, data brokers are out there right now buying and selling your personal information. Your phone number, your home address, your email, without your knowledge or consent. 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Speaker 1 (32:35) Whether you're a person of faith or not, Proverbs is the book of the Bible that is called the wisdom literature. The vast majority of it was written by Solomon, which those of us that are Christians or Jewish believe Solomon to be one of the wisest men to ever live. And he wrote Wisdom in the book of Proverbs. And then we fast forward and it becomes our Bible, or in the case of a Jewish person, their Bible, the Talmud, what Christians would call the Talmud, what the Jewish person calls the Bible. And the wisdom literature is most of us in evangelical Christianity or Orthodox Judaism believe it to be literal. And so that gives people trouble in some cases, but that's okay. The borrower, Proverbs 22, 7 says, the borrower is slave to the lender. Now, everybody that's listening, think about this for a second. How many times have we had payments to some organization, a car company, a credit card, a bank, and we resent that organization? Speaker 1 (33:56) We signed up for it, but by the time we finish paying off the truck, we hate Chevrolet, or at least Chevrolet General Motors Finance. By the time we finish paying off the Toyota, we can't stand Toyota Finance. By the time we finish paying off Citibank, we hate Citibank. Make fun of the mortgage company name that you pay payments to. That's because slaves seldom love their masters. Speaker 1 (34:27) It's not literal slavery in the sense of you gave up ownership, but it is mathematical and legal slavery. And if you don't believe it is slavery, try not having it. Speaker 2 (34:39) Yeah, financial. When you pay off Speaker 8 (34:42) your mortgage and you pay off all your cars and you pay off all your student loan and you don't have a single people, Speaker 1 (34:47) they stand differently. Speaker 2 (34:51) Well, it's a spiritual freedom because money is so tied to so much of our lives. And when you hand that part of your life over to someone else, it is a form