Bitcoin Is About To Go Parabolic Because Of AI Agents | Jordi Visser

The Pomp Podcast

Jordi Visser discusses why Bitcoin and stocks have remained resilient despite rising interest rates, arguing that we are entering a new era dri

Key takeaways

• Jordi Visser views Bitcoin as the only certain asset for growth over the next 30 years.
• The traditional liquidity mechanism is broken because productivity is increasing through profit margins rather than job creation or GDP.
• AI agents, such as those used by OpenAI to solve complex math problems, will act as the primary users of crypto rails.
• Tokenization could unlock $900 trillion in dormant assets by allowing them to be used as programmable collateral.
• The concept of 'Ghost Rails' refers to infrastructure built for future demand that is currently underutilized but essential.

Main topics

• Bitcoin Long-term Value
• AI Agent Productivity
• Tokenization of Assets

Notable quotes

The only one I can say in my brain with certainty for the next 30 years... is Bitcoin.

Conclusion

The episode provides a visionary look at how AI technology will fundam

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) And this is where I'm a Bitcoin maxi in the very long term. No, no, no. I believe if you want to continue, let's let me rephrase it. I want an asset that will be growing in value for the next 30 years. The only one I can say in my brain with certainty for the next 30 years, not the next five, not the next three that I believe is Bitcoin. That's it. All right, guys, Speaker 2 (0:20) today we have an excellent conversation with Jordy Visser. In this one, we go through what's going on in AI. Why all of a sudden when interest rates were raised, why did Bitcoin, stocks, all this stuff not crash? What is going on in the U.S. economy? Why does Jordy think that Bitcoin is going higher? Other cryptos are going higher. How does he think about all of the agent swarms and issues that are coming out of the AI industry? And then Jordy just gives it to us straight exactly where he thinks value is going to accrue over the next couple of years, what he's excited about, what he's not excited about and how it could impact your portfolio. This one. is excellent. Here's my latest conversation with Jordy Visser. All right, Jordy, Bitcoin has held pretty steady. Actually, it's up a little bit since the Fed decided to raise interest rates. Stock market as well, pretty much flat. AI indexes, they're up. I think that people are a little offside or shaken that if the Fed increases interest rates, aren't these assets all supposed to go down? What's going on here? Speaker 1 (1:09) I think you can take it back further. Let's say June 30th. What's happened since June 30th? That was the end of Q2. Stocks are unchanged, both NASDAQ and S &P. Oil's a lot higher. I don't know if you've heard, but oil's going to take down the world. Tenure rates, they're up a lot. I don't know if you heard this. They're up a lot. Whole system's going to crack. Situational awareness happened in July. Speaker 1 (1:36) AI bubbles unwound. Everything's going to crash. We're in a 1998. We're in a 2009. Whatever you want. We get out of July. And then what happens? Besson's going to go intervene in the yen. And then he's going to change the buybacks. And then he's going to do this. It's going to make rates go down. Rates go higher. The war gets worse. Oil goes higher. Fed's not going to raise rates. The Fed raises rates. Clarity Act is going to go through. Clarity Act doesn't go through. Not only is Bitcoin, Ethereum, everything sitting up here. Ethereum's up over 50 % quarter to date. So with all the news I just said, climbing a wall of worry is a big deal. If you ask me what's going on, it's very simple to me. You got to go back to situational awareness and everyone who's listening. He hates when I do this. Pause, pause for a second, go to your smartphone and just, so give me the image on page 71 of Leopold situational awareness, 165 page paper. And I want you to look at that exact point. And that's where we'll just pull it up here. So you don't have to pause. That's where, that's where agents take over. AI agents take over. And I think what has happened to crypto, plain and simple, is the enthusiasm came from, oh, debasement's coming. And I will keep saying it for all of you people listening. You want rates to go higher and crypto to go higher because a true technology, a true innovation means it is not sensitive to that. This has been a big mistake that I have strong disagreement with the entire crypto community that Bitcoin is just liquidity. No, Bitcoin has been liquidity because there hasn't been innovation that has been used. When you get to the inflection point where innovation starts to be used, like with the iPhone, then that growth and innovation happens without the business cycle, without liquidity. So for you truly to be what everyone believes it's going to be, which I believe it is now, you actually need the true users of crypto to come into play. Now. Speaker 2 (3:42) If rates are going up, which they did just this week, and crypto is still going up, people will say, OK, if Bitcoin was sensitive to liquidity before, will it be sensitive going forward? And I ask that because I don't know if you've seen the chart. The M2 money supply is going up and Bitcoin used to track very nicely. And there have been times where they diverged and you get kind of the alligator mouth. But then when it closes, there's a violent move in Bitcoin to catch up to M2. We have been living through for the last, I don't know, 18 months or so, that divergence again. And so M2 has been growing, Bitcoin has been down, and there's a belief in the Bitcoin community that those jaws are going to close. Bitcoin is going to violently move up. What I hear you saying is maybe that was true in the past, but the drivers of Bitcoin's price going forward may be more reliant on AI agents and other innovation more so than what's going on in the macro world. Is that a fair summarization? Speaker 1 (4:43) So, I'm spending a lot of time. So, one of the reasons that I wanted to do this with you is this moment in time. The four-year cycle to me is reflective of the liquidity cycle. I was just listening to someone who I respect talk about the liquidity cycle. The liquidity cycle... There could Speaker 2 (5:02) only be one guy who talks about the liquidity cycle nonstop. Well, Speaker 1 (5:05) no, we're probably thinking of the same person. It wasn't him, but it was someone directly related to him. Here's the thing I'll say is, in fact, that person, he and I spoke one time and I said, there's no such thing as recessions anymore. I agree with that. Okay. So if you don't have recessions anymore, the liquidity cycle is not the same. That doesn't mean that the government doesn't try to prevent stock market crashes and prevent possible recessions that they're worried about. So when you look at the liquidity cycle, you have to remember what makes M2 go down. is when humans start getting worried about things and they start hoarding cash and they start putting it into non-economic places. They're paying off debt or they're doing something, but they're not actually generating GDP with it. So there has been a link between liquidity forever and M2, and then you get GDP, and then you know what happens after you get GDP? Liquidity turns into more jobs. We're not doing that anymore. It turns into profits first, and then it goes into there. So we have the S &P 500 growing at 30 % earnings, and the hiring ex-healthcare is negative over the last 20 months. Think about that. We've had no job creation over the last 20 months except for healthcare. Fraud. Go ahead. So we have no job creation. How are we breaking it? So the percentage of capital versus labor is now at the worst in history for labor. So we've broken the liquidity mechanism. Now, how is the stock market growing so fast? Because liquidity leads to nominal GDP. Nominal GDP is top line revenue, money transaction. People get hired. They spend more money. How in God's name do we actually have this mechanism still working? This is why liquidity cycle is not about Bitcoin anymore. Liquidity cycle in 2009 began with the efficiency of productivity finally entering up. So the Internet was born in 1994 in terms of when Netscape went public. Then we had the dot-com bubble. That was the version of crypto, that period into the dot-com bubble and after, where we were building the rails for commerce. It didn't come until the smartphone came. And when the smartphone came, we had an explosion of productivity that showed up in profit margins. It did not show up in GDP, but I've talked about that. It's a horrible index for what we're dealing with with software and intangibles. But what is happening now is we've broken the liquidity mechanism. So I will say it again to everyone. We will be having... more liquidity in the system, but not through the liquidity measures that people talk about. Tokenization unleashes dormant assets, $900 trillion of assets, of which two-thirds just sit and do nothing. They will be used as collateral. They will be in daily transactions. You won't have to go to get a... borrow money from your bank. It'll be programmable and stuff. We post something for a period of time waiting for your receivables to come in. And then it goes, the whole system will be based on the velocity of money. So remember, liquidity M2 is about the government putting money into the system. We have plenty of money to run the system, not showing up in profit margins or showing a top line revenue. Do you hear that right now? From whom? Me? Yes. Speaker 2 (8:16) No, no, no, no. Do you hear if you open your ear? Yeah. It's everyone laughing at the Fed and saying, you thought you were going to tank the stock market? You thought you were going to slow us down? They're just pouring money in, even though rates went up. And I think part of this is, yes, there is less rate sensitivity in some of these names. But I also think that there is a full-blown psychological revolution that has occurred where run-the-counter example or analysis, what would have to happen? for all of the people who are talking about stocks on X or on YouTube, sit inside these firms to actually stop buying. I don't think I could think of a single thing that could occur that could get them to stop buying because probably the single worst thing that could have happened, happened. In 2020, they locked everyone in their houses. They stopped the velocity of money and they basically froze the world as best they could. And stocks ended the year higher than they started. So if you think of that, it just was like we pulled back the curtain like Wizard of Oz style. And everyone's like, wait a minute. No matter what happens, if you keep buying stocks, you're going to make money. And it feels like that actually broke the market almost more than anything else. And that's why maybe interest rates, all of this stuff, like the innovation thing is big. But the psychology piece feels like it is a huge piece of it as well. Speaker 1 (9:48) All right, so rather than like... Do you disagree? No, no, no, I agree. In fact, I'm going to take it to a higher extreme. Speaker 1 (10:01) So in 2020, we shut down the economy. Are Speaker 2 (10:04) you Speaker 1 (10:04) about to out-crazy me? Well, I'm about to take you through a timeline of, let's assume it's back at December 31st of 2019. Okay. Okay, we're going to shut the economy for a period of time. Assets are going to collapse significantly. Yields, credit yields for almost all corporate credits, IG, are going to go to double digits. And yes, we end that year with stocks higher somehow. Everyone's worried about dying, truly dying, not the AI is going to kill us all, but truly we're watching people die. We're watching the hospitals be overrun and yet the stock market's up. Then we get to 2022. We go from 0 % rates to five aggressively like never before. And inflation is double digits. The market that year is down, but very quickly the following year, despite the fact that in 2023, we also have Silicon Valley Bank goes out of business. the largest bank that goes from they're healthy to zero ever. And we start seeing money leave the banking system. It's leaving all small banks. We're getting many small bank closures. We finished that year higher on the year. Then we get a new president. We go into 2025. We're going to go back to Smoot-Hawley and we're going to put tariffs on everything. Massive tariffs. Everyone calls for another recession. So let's take that period there. Speaker 1 (11:29) There's no recession during all of those events, especially the 2022 one, where we raised aggressively and everyone said this is going to be a problem. It was a guaranteed recession. The Fed was saying sell your stocks. Then you get to this year. We shut down the Strait of Hormuz. So Smoot-Hawley, straight of Hormuz, bank runs, a pandemic, and the most aggressive Fed rate hikes in history. No recessions. So now we're going to worry about a 25 basis point move by the Fed. A raise for ants. That is discounted in the market ahead of them doing it. Oh my God, they raised rates. It was a hawkish Fed rate hike. So I think people are missing the bigger story. The bigger story is... We are in a productivity boom showing through profit margins. We are not hiring human beings. We're in a point where we have a cancer vaccine that comes out. And as I'm going to show this weekend, when we say humanity is going to die, 170 million views. The Matt Schumer article about all jobs, the Citrini article about all jobs being lost, 20, 30, 40 million. Cancer vaccine, 10. Nobody wants to hear about the good news that's coming from AI. They only want to hear about the bad news. So for all of you listening, playing this stupid game of the people telling you that the market's going to crash because AI is this or this is this or the debt is coming or all of this. The market has discounted all of the scenarios they've said because the P.E. multiple has gone down this year while earnings have gone higher. So I just think people have are overestimating constantly the sensitivity that all of these linear things of the past, Smoot-Hawley, oil, interest rates, all of this stuff are going to take down the world. And they've done it repeatedly. And it hasn't happened. What is happening right now. is the most unbelievable technology is making things better and better for us every day, solving math problems that have been around since before Einstein. This is happening regularly, and it's only going to accelerate from here. So two Speaker 2 (13:39) things. There was no recession because not only is there less sensitivity to this stuff, but also. It's rigged. If you remember, we had two quarters of negative GDP growth during that period. They just said, oh, that's not really a recession because we have a monopoly on being able to call a recession versus not. Now, the reason I say that is it was, quote unquote, so bad, yet they wouldn't acknowledge what was happening because I actually think that they understand this. They understand that the market cannot go down for prolonged periods of time. And I continue to say, I don't think we're going to get like an 18 month recession. I don't think I'll see that again in my lifetime. And the traditionalists will get very upset and say, what are you talking about, et cetera. Some of it is innovation and productivity driven. Some of it is just they have a monetary bazooka that they are willing to fire at the market whenever it is needed. The second piece of this is we are creating jobs in America. We're just not creating human jobs. And I think that we've talked about this in the past where at, take our public company. There are less than 15 humans that work there. we may have close to 100 digital AI agent employees. I don't know what the exact number is, but it is multiples of the humans. To the point where just on one system in Grokbot, I don't know, I probably have 10 or 15 bots just there myself. And so you look at that and you say to yourself, do the economic measurements need to change? Are we going to have to recalibrate how we think about the health of the U.S. economy? Because to your point, We're looking at outdated metrics to measure this. If you keep looking at those metrics trying to invest in the future, you're going to struggle. And I think that's your major point here. It's just like you are going to struggle to invest using these metrics. So what should they do? Should they create new ones? Should they evolve the definition of these? Like, what are you doing with these metrics and how are you thinking about them differently so that you can invest going forward? Speaker 1 (15:48) Well, I know that these metrics are wrong for where we are today. And unfortunately, I know they're going to get more wrong going forward. Let's just. Speaker 1 (15:59) Very seldom do I remember a month like this month in my life where all of the dots come together and it's all related to AI agents. The Navier-Stokes thing for people, they should understand, and I'm going to put it into a way that everyone can comprehend the importance of it. And this will get into your point about how statistics don't fit, and this will end with Eli Lilly. Okay, so we'll go from Navier-Stokes. And I'll end with Eli Lilly. I had no plan for this, but my brain just popped Eli Lilly into my head and said, let's do that. So Navier-Stokes. Let's go for a ride, Jordy. Yeah, you've been around me now long enough. I can go for a good five minutes now and give you something. So let's take Navier-Stokes and rather than go through what it is and bore people with fluid dynamics, let's just view it as it's a math problem that has existed for a long time that if you've seen Good Will Hunting, you've seen it. Yes. One of my favorite movies. So you remember the professor who is working with Nat Damon? He won the field medal, which is basically like the Nobel Prize for mathematics. So this is a big deal. These these math problems. So open I releases that they've solved it. Now humans get mad. Some say they're copying it, whatever. I'll get into that with Eli Lilly. But the main point is they had 10,000 agents. Speaker 1 (17:23) deal with the problem. Now, if you ask me, could this problem have been solved by humans? I will be the first one to say, absolutely, it could have been solved by humans. The question is not, could it have been solved by humans instead of AI? The answer is, of course it could. What's the problem? The problem is... If you want the Fields Medal, you can't be sharing your information and your great things. So you just kind of lock yourself in a box and you try to solve the problem. You know what that'll remind people of? The movie Oppenheimer. You had Grove, you had Oppenheimer. Groves, he wanted everyone to go into their own