PEL Presents Philosophy vs. Theater w/ David Epstein

The Partially Examined Life Philosophy Podcast

In this special episode, host Mark interviews his former classmate David Epstein about his multifaceted career in New York theater and film.

Key takeaways

• David Epstein's NYU short film 'Ground Level B' served as the creative template for the feature film Black Swan.
• The discussion posits that discipline and presence are more vital to acting than complex 'methods' or emotional channeling.

Main topics

• Theater and Acting Careers
• John Hughes Film Locations

Notable quotes

I'm much more comfortable in that arena... I can take all the blame for things that don't go well.

Conclusion

The episode serves as an inspiring reflection on finding purpose and c

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:06) That music means that this is not a normal episode. What you're about to hear is my interview with actor, director, writer, and old classmate of mine, David Epstein. Long-time Partially Examined Life listeners may recognize him as the lead role in our on-air reading of Calderon's Life is a Dream. More recently, I attempted to interview him with Mary for Philosophy vs. Improv, but that didn't really work out, and so that episode was publicly redacted. It's available only on our Patreon page, patreon.com slash philosophyimprov. So this interview doesn't exactly match the format of any of my existing shows. Maybe I'll do more things like this in the future. But for the moment, it's a one-off that I enjoyed quite a bit. I think it's pretty inspiring. Hope you enjoy it. I'll say a little more at the end after the interview. Speaker 2 (0:57) All Speaker 1 (0:57) right, we're doing something a little different this time. This is not philosophy versus improv. It's philosophy versus theater. I'm Mark, your normal host. I'm David, your abnormal guest. I do stuff in New York. A New York theater actor, a trainer. Yeah, what are the many hats you have? Speaker 2 (1:14) Well, I started as an actor and then I moved on to writer and then I did directing and then I did producing. And inside of all of that, I've done set design, stage design, stage managing, production assistant, bartender, servant, slave. But Speaker 1 (1:32) those are the big ones. And right. We started out more or less in the same place in that we're in the same high school in the. Do you describe it to people as like, oh, it's the one John Hughes went to that he depicts in his. Speaker 2 (1:47) I do. Speaker 1 (1:48) I do. But that comes up Speaker 2 (1:49) later. Like it comes up a few minutes into the discussion. First, I'm like, oh, I went to this great. I had this we had this amazing facility at our school and no one's impressed. We had a great drama teacher. No one's impressed. And I'm like, oh, they filmed Ferris Bueller there. Oh, wow. They're still really not as impressed as we are with having lived through that. But it is amazing. And I think I think. our generation, we were right there in the middle when that happened. And I don't know if you remember, but they let the drama, the drama classes, they let us sit on the set and they, they let us take Murphy, let us take all of our like three or four days off of school all day just to sit on the set. And there was like maybe five or six of us to be invited to do that with. And, you know, so there's a number of scenes where I'm like, I'm just right off to the side, the scene where Ferris Bueller picks up his, his daughter. in front of the school and he's dressed up like Inspector Gadget, basically. All of us are just sitting right there, right off of camera. It's crazy. Speaker 1 (2:45) Yes, and I have to tell people when that plays, like, that wasn't really the front door. That was the auditorium door. That's the CPA. That wasn't real. It's totally different. But it does look like Speaker 2 (2:57) the front of a school. Speaker 1 (2:58) Yes, and that road that they're streaming down, like, yes, I got a speeding ticket on that road. Speaker 2 (3:06) Yeah, and that road led to Ryan Radden's house was the first house at the end of that road. So everybody had to pass Ryan's house and go in different directions. But yeah, that's the Bender Road. Oh, no, that's the Ferris Bueller Road where they're driving off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's also where Bender in Breakfast Club, he's right there. He holds up his hand at the end. That's right next to that road. So John Hughes really went crazy with all of those little locations that must have been very personal to him where he wanted certain things to happen. Speaker 1 (3:35) But then, of course, we went in different directions and I wasn't totally, I was too, my loyalties were too divided, right? I didn't get to do that theater thing when we talked before. I didn't get to do the immediate conception because I wasn't, because I was in orchestra. I was doing the music thing as well as the theater thing where you seemed like you put all your eggs in that basket. Although I forget whether you, like you did, did you have to sing? Were you in the musicals too? Speaker 2 (3:58) I Speaker 1 (3:59) was in the Speaker 2 (3:59) musicals. I was in Sound of Music. I was in Hello Dolly. Channel Music was at Glenbrook South. Hello Dolly was at Glenbrook North. Those are the only two I did at school. But then obviously when I got to New York, I Speaker 1 (4:10) did Speaker 2 (4:10) more. But yeah, yeah, I did the singing. I did the acting. I did the, we did the individual events. You know, I lived in that place. And before I lived in that place, I don't know what your experience was. I was a real... mess up. My life was all screwed up before I found the theater. And so when I sort of rediscovered it in my life, like all of my problems as like an angsty, you know, sort of psychotic kid went away because I was able to like put all of that weird energy that I had that was like sort of burgeoning out of me into something and tried sports. My parents, you know, tried to push me in a lot of different directions. But when I found the theater, it was like. It cured me, you know, it caused all other diseases in my life. But like in that moment, it really cured me. It was like I found what ended up being my calling, you know. Speaker 1 (4:57) I mean, I've definitely been grateful for the amount of support for stuff like that, which I don't know. I know Glenbrook North itself, you know, they keep getting nicer and nicer facilities. And every time there's sort of a referendum on should we put more taxes toward the school? They say yes, but that does not seem to be the norm. nationwide such that, you know, having those kind of opportunities. And I wish adults had those opportunities more regularly. I know there is plenty of like community theater and stuff if you want to do that, but there's certainly not the support. You know, people have jobs, people have lives. Speaker 1 (5:31) What family person necessarily wants to spend, okay, I work a full day and then I'm going to go rehearse every night, you know, do what we did for those damn plays. Speaker 2 (5:42) It's interesting. I don't know if you know this, but my father told me this. I could be wrong, but he's pretty up on what's going on in Northbrook. And I know you're still around there, but Glenbrook North was voted the number one school in America. for high schools in this last year. They said the best programs for all across the boards. I don't know if that's true. I don't know where he read that, but that's what I heard. In terms of like, you know, adults, you know, having support, like I work with a lot of people now, like in corporate fields and, you know, lawyers and real estate agents and bankers and stuff like that, who like, they pay me to give them that experience so that like they'd have like a week. of like knowing what it is to feel like a kid again. And I think if it were up to me and I tell all of these businesses that I work for, I'm like, if you were smart, you would make every single one of your employees do this two or three times a month because it does soften the soul. It does like take some of the hard edges off of life, you know? So I'm always amazed that like. They gave us theater and stuff because it's part of the curriculum. They make us read Romeo and Juliet when we're kids, but nobody really gives a crap about it. We're just reading it. But if you were to really take things in earnest and then adults continue on with that, even just once or twice a month, I think for all businesses, I think it would be so healthy for just the energy of the cities that we live in, but people don't do it. But I get paid money now to remind corporate people. I was doing it this morning. To remind corporate people to enjoy life and to have a little fun and wipe some of the rust off. And these Speaker 1 (7:19) many hats that you've been talking about. Right. I have a whole podcast where I just talk to musicians and so many of them, you know, have to do something else because the number of people that make it right, that can just do music full time is very, very small. And clearly that's the same with actors. So was the I'm going to be crew. I'm going to. Well, you were bartending some of the time. So or. Wade, Wade staff or whatnot, whatnot. Yeah. What was your sort of journey in terms of, am I going to make it? It might, it seems, sounds like you just immediately, or what, what was the stage? Was there a stage at which you were like, okay, I'm, I'm 25. I'm not going to be like a full-time theater actor or in movies soon. So I'm going to put my foot in this, you know, something to keep in the theater world and not have to get a real job. So they say. Speaker 2 (8:10) Yeah, you know, my journey was just as disparaging as anyone's. I got lucky as the years went on. I've had a lot of luck along the way, but nowhere near as much luck as I need. So, you know, at the beginning of my career, I graduated NYU and I had made a short film called Ground Level B. And I produced it and I starred in it. And the guy who wrote it and directed it is this guy named Andres Hines. And the guy who did cinematography is this guy named Ed Berger. And the movie was about this guy who like loses his mind and then starts kind of having a conversation with himself at a dance competition. That script, it won Best Picture at NYU. I won Best Actor. We won, we swept. And then the film was bought by 20th Century Fox and it became Black Swan. So the film that I was in in college was the template, was the short film. for Black Swan. Now the writer of that would tell you a different story about how things evolved, but like that's the short version of it, that our short film at NYU became Black Swan. So I thought at that moment, at that moment NYU was sending me to California. They flew us out with the movie. NYU was sort of like really catering us to meet like agents and managers. And we all thought, wow, this is our moment. For the guy who wrote it and made all the money, Andres, it took 10 years. for the script to go from short film to feature film with all sorts of problems and hirings and firings along the way. For Ed Berger, the cinematographer, he ended up becoming the Oscar-winning director of All Quiet on the Western Front, and now he makes huge movies. So I got really lucky early on, but the luck didn't really arrive until these guys, their careers took off. And I was able to say, hey, I did a movie with these guys. You know, I produced a film with these guys. And so years later, I was able to now I'm able to now like I'm doing right now, drop those names and say, hey, I've done some stuff. But I did think at the time, oh, wow, we're going to be rich and famous. This is the way it's going to be. And I've run into that experience many, many times where I've gotten to a place where I'm like, wow, I'm working with Oscar winners or I'm working with Emmy winners or Grammy winners. And, you know, I'm directing for these people or I'm writing for these people. And there's a lot of money involved. And you think, oh, this is it. This is the one. This is going to put me on the map. And it doesn't. You just keep putting like little notches into your belt until eventually. you can stop living that dual Batman and Bruce Wayne life where you're waiting tables during the day and you're doing theater at night. Like there did come a point where I was able to like, you know, hit the gas and then allow myself to finally fall into a life in the arts. Is it an ideal life in the arts? No. Like I came to New York to be an actor. I studied acting my whole life. But when I realized that the wind is going to kind of blow me wherever it's going to blow me, I started putting on more hats. and allowed myself to be pushed into whatever direction things were happening. I mean, I could give you lots of stories, Mark, about like, I was flown across the country by Tony Bill. Tony Bill is the Oscar winning producer of The Sting. He read one of my plays, this short play. He didn't read it. He saw one of my plays in Venice in California. And he flew me out to meet with him. And I thought, oh, this is it. This is my big moment. And I said, well, you know, what do you want me to do, Tony? He said, I want you to write a movie. So I wrote a movie. I came back. A year later, I was like, are you going to buy my movie? He was like, no, I'm not going to buy your movie. I'm like, why did you make me write this movie? And then he said things like, well, I can send your movie to people. Now that you have a movie, I can maybe help you. Maybe you'll have some luck. And so there is this whole like. you know, there's love hate relationship you have with your career because some of the people that I know there's, they're like the dudes that I've mentioned, they're living in the Hollywood Hills and they're getting residual checks from their movies every month for the rest of their lives. They never have to like, you know, lift a finger, but at the same time, they only have that one credit to fall back on. And like, that's the only thing that's been driving them for years and years and years. And they must be tired of it. And then there's guys like me still pining to get in. My point is, is that like, I'm perfectly happy that I've sort of, after running my own non-for-profit theater company, after having all of these experiences with big writers and big people who are doing things now, I'm really happy now that I've fallen into this coaching, directing atmosphere that I'm in and running my own acting studio, which I never thought that would have happened. But like, I thank my lucky stars that I'm not waiting tables, that I'm not like, you know, waving my headshot in the wind anymore. I mean, I could give you all sorts of horror stories and glory stories about like... the people I've met and the things that I've done, but like, I'm just happy to be making a living in the arts. I went to school to get a BFA in drama and film. I'm working in film. I'm working in drama. Like I don't like beat myself up anymore because I don't have an Oscar. And I used to, I used to be like, Oh, my friends have Oscars. They got Oscar nominations. Like, why doesn't that happen for me? And it took a long time to swallow the pill to understand, Hey, you studied to be in the arts. You're in the arts. What's the problem? You're not, it beats working for a living. And I tell myself that now every day. So now I'm very happy and content teaching actors, working with actors. But that's my long winded response to whatever the question was. Well, Speaker 1 (13:06) and it gets me thinking sort of to what degree the various arts are social and involve you being judged and dependent on other people that I was very resistant to that, even even academically. So you said you were sort of a mess. I was. I didn't have a lot of problems sort of conforming and getting reasonably good grades and, you know, being in orchestra, being like I was in sports. None of that. But, you know, doing doing the things. But I kind of I think we both shared the quality of being arrogant little pricks when. So I felt like I was smarter than my teachers. So, you know, the idea of like being in an orchestra, even though like I was an upright bass player, there was a lot of demand for that, you know, such that in the middle school I got to play with the high school because there weren't. enough upright bass players. And I was like taking lessons from somebody in the Chicago symphony and I could have gotten, but would I have actually been competitive at that really high level? Probably not. Like I was not dedicated to the practicing. I was more into, I want to, I want to write my own songs. I want to do my own thing. So the, the whole idea, just being an actor, I mean, I, I really enjoyed the theater stuff I did, but there's always something, you know, the kind of contempt that I had for cover bands. was the kind of contempt a little bit. So let's just throw in this out. Clearly, you also wrote your own stuff. So you clearly felt some of this. I don't want to just fit into somebody else's project. I want to express myself, create something myself. Speaker 2 (14:39) 100%. You talk about us being arrogant little pricks. That followed me around in a bad