The Lindsay Clancy Case, Understanding Postpartum Psychosis

The Oprah Podcast

Oprah Winfrey hosts a powerful conversation in Boston about the Lindsay Clancy case, examining the tragic deaths of three children and the national debate over

Key takeaways

• Postpartum psychosis is a severe but treatable condition that can lead to dangerous thoughts or actions, yet it remains poorly understood by the public and medical systems.
• The Clancy case has exposed deep flaws in how society handles maternal mental health, particularly when privilege and access to care are not equally distributed.

Main topics

• Postpartum psychosis and its symptoms
• Criminalization vs. medicalization of maternal mental health crises

Notable quotes

"She was a darn good mother. Her mind was gone." – Meg Hamp

"I had my son in the baby bath and he began to cry... I heard as if a man had walked up behind me and whispered... it will stop if you hold him under the water."

Conclusion

Oprah concludes that while Lindsay Clancy's case remains legally unresolved, it has become a pivotal cultural

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) We heard from moms all over the country who've lived through postpartum psychosis. You thought hearing voices that were telling you to kill yourself and your children. I Speaker 2 (0:10) had my son in the baby bath and he began to cry in the bath. And I heard as if a man had walked up behind me and whispered in my right ear, it will stop if you hold him under the water. Speaker 1 (0:20) I started to hear what I called the voice of God. Did you say your daughter was the second coming of Jesus? Oh yeah. Meg. Hamp is a labor and delivery nurse who worked with Lindsay Clancy for seven years. She testified on behalf of the defense. How would you describe Lindsay as a nurse, as a friend, as a mother? What was your first reaction when you heard that Lindsay Clancy had murdered her children? Speaker 6 (0:49) The breaking headline outside Boston tonight. Speaker 2 (0:51) It's a case that's Speaker 4 (0:52) captivating the country. This is a case that has Speaker 1 (0:54) subdivided people. Speaker 3 (0:55) I'm going to declare that the jury is deadlocked, and I'm Speaker 2 (1:00) going to declare mistrial. The Speaker 1 (1:01) 36-year-old mother, white, and nurse, Lindsay Clancy, was charged with first-degree murder for strangling her three children to death. Her daughter, Cora, and two sons, Dawson and Callen. After 21 days of testimony from more than 80 witnesses, the jury was not able to reach a unanimous decision. The prosecution has not yet announced if they will try the case again. Cora was into princesses. Speaker 3 (1:32) I didn't eat chocolate. Speaker 1 (1:35) He was into firefighters and trucks. Speaker 6 (1:40) I didn't eat chocolate. He was just Speaker 1 (1:42) a happy baby. The defense argued Lindsay Clancy was suffering from postpartum psychosis and that despite repeated requests for help, Lindsay was overmedicated by doctors and was not provided proper psychiatric care. Speaker 8 (1:57) She was a darn good mother. Her mind was gone. Speaker 1 (2:02) I can't do this. Speaker 1 (2:06) The prosecution alleged that Lindsay Clancy planned the murders and may have faked a suicide attempt that left her paralyzed from the waist down. She Speaker 3 (2:16) left them discarded on the basement floor like broken toys because she was done playing the game. Speaker 1 (2:25) The Speaker 3 (2:25) trial has Speaker 1 (2:26) divided our nation. Speaker 3 (2:28) Everybody failed that woman. I wholeheartedly think she did not do it. I don't care what any of you say. Lindsay Clancy is guilty. When I had postpartum Speaker 6 (2:37) psychosis, I had some of the scariest, Speaker 3 (2:39) darkest thoughts to the point where I knew I could not physically hold Speaker 8 (2:45) my baby. I had to give him to my husband. This is a topic that needs to go further than just this Speaker 1 (2:52) trial. I agree with that. That's why we're here. So thank you for joining me here on the Oprah podcast, along with millions of other Americans and people all over the world. I, too, have been following the Lindsay Clancy case and the loss of three innocent and defenseless little children who did not deserve to die that way is just too horrific to really comprehend. And no matter what the lawyers argue and the possible. Future jury decides, how can we begin to reconcile the senseless deaths of three precious children at the hands of their mother? This case is another flashpoint in America that has created yet another divide. And as we watch the country. buckle under the weight of such an unfathomable act with all of the opinions and the speculations and the conspiracy theories and, yes, a lot, a lot of vitriol on all sides. The question I want to ask is how did we get here and how can we best use this moment, this watershed moment, to honor the lives of Cora? Speaker 1 (4:14) Five years old, Dawson, three years old, and Callan, who only lived eight months here on the planet Earth. How can we do that and protect families and women and especially children? So let's just have a moment of silence to think about Cora, Dawson, and Callan. Cora, Dawson, and Callan. Speaker 1 (5:02) We come to Boston to have this conversation, and we're about 30 miles from Duxbury, Massachusetts, where on January 24, 2023, Cora, Dawson, and Callen were killed. And I have to say, we're not here to retry Lindsay Clancy's case or debate the minute details or online theories. I've been talking to mothers who suffered from postpartum mental health issues now for decades. And way back when, when we first started having these conversations on The Oprah Winfrey Show, as early as 1986. There was not even a language for it. Nobody called it anything except these women are monsters or these women are evil. And over the years, I've interviewed many, many, many mothers who have killed their children. And we can all see that the deaths of Cora, Dawson, and Callan have caused this national conversation to shift. and erupt like never before. So that's why I wanted to bring together doctors and psychiatrists and legal scholars and journalists and parents here today to Boston to unpack what has been blowing up on social media, on your family text chains, at work, and in the school parking lot. And my intention here today is to ask this question. How can we, as a culture, as a society, do better? How do we use this moment to move ourselves forward and not just all of our opinions and yakking about it for something this big? Can you feel it? Something this big in the culture means the culture is supposed to shift. It feels to me like, you know, many other movements that I've witnessed, been old enough to witness, you know, when there was a time when people just drove drunk and they killed people and nobody said anything. And then what was created, the Mothers Against Drunk Drivers, and that movement really changed the way we looked at alcohol and the consumption of alcohol and alcoholism in this country. It changed the laws for driving. It saved so many lives. So today... We want to use this seminal moment to move forward. And I want to start by introducing Meg Hamp. She is a labor and delivery nurse who worked with Lindsay Clancy for seven years. And you may recognize Meg because she testified on behalf of the defense. And here's a short part of it. Speaker 3 (7:40) Were you aware of any incidents where Lindsay was with you and a woman did, in fact, express concern that she wanted to hurt herself or her child? Speaker 8 (7:50) There was a particular patient that Lindsay was on staff when this patient arrived. It was a patient that arrived to the unit that had plans to harm herself while she was pregnant. And we had a conversation. Lindsay was brand new. It was the summer that she had just started. And we had a conversation about mental health in pregnancy and postpartum. And I asked her if she had ever heard of the Andrea Yates case, and she hadn't. And I explained that to her, and she cried. And she said, how could a mother hurt her children? Hi, Meg. Hi. Speaker 1 (8:38) Thank you. This is Meg's first time that you're speaking, you know, outside of the trial. So thank you for being here with us today. Thank Speaker 8 (8:45) you. Speaker 1 (8:45) How would you describe Lindsay as a nurse, as a friend, as a mother? Speaker 8 (8:52) Lindsay loved being a nurse. She was a light on our unit. She brought warmth and compassion to the room. She brought emotion to the rooms that we were in. Speaker 8 (9:05) I loved working with her. I think our team loved working with her. She brought a piece to our team that nobody else has been able to bring. Speaker 7 (9:15) I Speaker 8 (9:16) often remember looking up after a baby was born and Lindsay was my second nurse in the delivery and just looking over the mother and Lindsay with tears in her eyes because birth was just so emotional for her. And she felt that for so many other women, not just her friends or her family. Speaker 1 (9:34) And so several medical experts testified that they believe that she suffered from bipolar disorder. Did you ever see any signs of that? No. And you testified that you'd once brought up to her, that you just said there, the case of Andrea Yates. How did that conversation come about? We Speaker 8 (9:53) had a patient on the unit that was suffering from some mental health challenges. There was just a lot of question around that, Lindsay being a new nurse. And there was another new nurse on the floor at the time. And I had asked, I just asked her if she had ever heard of the Andrea Yates case. And she hadn't. Seems like such a big case in the maternal health world. But Lindsay was at that age where she probably hadn't. kind of lived through that. I'm a little bit older than Lindsay. Speaker 1 (10:25) So that story was surprising. I remember interviewing Andrea Yates' husband and doing a whole series of shows around Andrea Yates, yes. And what I was saying earlier, at the time of Andrea Yates, everyone just, you know, first of all, we didn't have social media then, but a number of people just felt, because obviously the first time she was convicted of... murder and a lot of people just thought that there was this evil woman who killed her kids and nobody understood it so now we're 25 years later Right. And people still don't understand it. And people still don't understand it. What was your first reaction when you, as her friend and as her comrade in working, realized or had heard that she'd murdered her children, that Lindsay Clancy had murdered her children? Speaker 8 (11:18) First, I didn't believe it. Lindsay... Speaker 1 (11:22) How did you hear? Speaker 8 (11:25) I had a phone call from a colleague. We weren't 100 % sure what had happened, but the address was hitting the news. And I knew her address, so I knew that something had happened. Speaker 4 (11:38) And Speaker 8 (11:39) then coworkers were chatting. And that's how we learned what happened. So you Speaker 1 (11:47) heard it and you didn't believe it. Speaker 8 (11:49) Didn't believe Speaker 1 (11:49) it. Because you knew her. Speaker 8 (11:52) She loved her children. She lived for her children. She did everything for them. She wanted all the parenting tips. It wasn't possible in my mind that this was a person who couldn't murder her three children. Speaker 1 (12:10) So what was your reaction when you heard that there was a mistrial? Speaker 8 (12:14) I was devastated for her, that she potentially has to go through this again. Speaker 1 (12:20) And what do you want to say to people, and there are lots of them, who believe that Lindsay Clancy is just evil? Speaker 8 (12:30) I think mental health can affect anyone. It can affect the person who goes to their dream college. meets the man of their dreams, decides to have a family, buys a house, buys another house as their family grows. And it doesn't matter where you are in life or how many boxes on your life's bucket list you're checking off as you go. It can impact anyone regardless of where you are in your life. And this has been very eye-opening that someone like Lindsay who was checking off those boxes of her life's bucket list, that this could happen to her. Speaker 1 (13:13) Thank you, Meg. Thank Speaker 8 (13:14) you. Speaker 1 (13:15) Thank you. So we heard from moms all over the country who've lived through postpartum psychosis. Two are joining us. Brooke, you say that Lindsay's story actually hits so close to home for you. How so? Will you share your story with us? Speaker 2 (13:33) When Lindsay's story came across my social media screen, I literally said, this is an alternate reality. This is my personal life. It's an alternate reality. And up until Lindsay's case went public, I hadn't even told my own husband some of the darkest. thoughts I'd had when I was going through postpartum psychosis. My postpartum psychosis started when my son was 10 days old. And I remember the first hallucination and I was convinced there was a man outside our house with a gun just there to murder me. Could you see him? I could see his shadow through our blinds. Yeah. Did you tell your husband at the time? I looked at my husband who was, I was standing holding our baby, rocking him to sleep. And he was in the bed. I was standing next to our bed and I looked at him and I looked back at the window and I was like, I still see the man. And I looked at him and he wasn't reacting. And I thought, if he's not reacting, is he there? And I turned my back to the window and I just kept, I just breathed in my baby. And I was like, I don't know if this is happening. And that was the first time. Speaker 2 (14:55) But did you mention it? Speaker 1 (14:56) No. You did not mention it? I did not Speaker 2 (14:58) mention it at that point. Speaker 1 (15:00) I Speaker 2 (15:00) continued to have hallucinations, and around six weeks postpartum, I became extremely suicidal, and I still... Didn't mention it. You were having Speaker 1 (15:15) suicidal thoughts. Speaker 2 (15:16) Yes, I was having suicide ideations, intrusive thoughts about suicide that would come out of nowhere and it would just be a movie playing in my mind. Speaker 1 (15:28) Okay, so one of the things the prostitution stressed throughout this is how normal Lindsay Clancy seemed during other parts of the day. So did you feel normal during other parts of the day? Felt normal or were you just pretending to be normal? Speaker 2 (15:46) So postpartum psychosis waxes and wanes. And I wish I had understood that because I was actually gaslighting myself. Speaker 1 (15:53) You were gaslighting yourself. Speaker 2 (15:55) When I Speaker 1 (15:55) was normal. Yeah. Speaker 2 (15:56) That what I was going through maybe wasn't that bad. That maybe I actually didn't see that. Speaker 1 (16:03) And maybe it was like a dream. Can you tell us why in that moment you wouldn't say to your husband, did you see somebody out by the window? Speaker 2 (16:14) I was, I don't know why I didn't in that moment. And I continue to not. I had experienced postpartum depression and anxiety with my previous children. Speaker 1 (16:24) So with the other three children, it took the form of what? Because we're going to be talking to doctors later to distinguish. There is a distinct difference between depression and psychosis. So you've been depressed before, meaning what? You felt down. Back in the old days, people didn't have a name for it. They just called it the baby blues. Speaker 2 (16:43) Right, which is a separate thing. Speaker 2 (16:47) Postpartum depression for me manifests with a heavy depression, a darkness, like just a weight, a cloud. It's kind of like it's hard to get out of bed, but I still want to take care of my kids. I just am unmotivated to. I want to take care of myself, but I don't find the motivation to do it. I have to make myself do it. Speaker 1 (17:11) Yeah. Speaker 2 (17:12) So Speaker 1 (17:12) you'd felt that before? Speaker 2 (17:13) Yeah. Speaker 1 (17:14) This was different. This was different. And this came on sudden. So, okay, the 10 days, you see the man. And then what happens? Speaker 2 (17:22) My hallucinations and intrusive thoughts continue to build and get worse. And when my son was three months old was the first time I heard. Speaker 2 (17:37) someone talking to me that wasn't there. Can you explain to us what that feels like? I had my son in the baby bath on the counter in our bathroom and he began to cry in the bath. I don't remember why at this point. And I heard as if a man, it was a man's voice for me, as if a man had walked up behind me and whispered in my right ear, it will stop if you hold him under the water. Speaker 2 (18:06) My son had just barely began to cry. And I stopped and I heard it again. Just push him under the water. I grabbed his towel and I picked him up and I ran out of the room crying. And I did not give my son another bath. Speaker 1 (18:30) So at this point, did you tell Trevor? Speaker 2 (18:33) No. Speaker 7 (18:34) Why? Speaker 2 (18:35) I was so scared. I was scared my kids would be taken from me. I was scared of what Speaker 1 (18:42) would he think? What would he think? Yeah, what would he think of me? So when the voice, because you're here to help us understand. Yeah. When the voice says, if you just hold him under the water, it'll go away. The crying stops. Yeah, it stops. Like that's the solution. It stops. Okay. Does that voice then disappear and then you go on and you make lunch? Yeah, literally. Speaker 2 (19:05) I ran to the family room with him. I didn't even drain the water. So that's what you mean by wax and wane. Yeah. I sobbed sitting on the couch with him and dressed him. I dried the soap off of him. The voice comes in and then it leaves. It's gone. It was gone. And now you're normal again. And I was all, like, confused by it. And I went and I dressed him and I helped the toddlers with the sippy cups. And... changed their diapers. I had multiple kids in diapers. I have four children under five and got them a snack. And we went in the yard and I pulled out my phone and I Googled. I searched the hallucination, like seeing a man who's not there, hearing voices that aren't there. Speaker 1 (19:54) You Googled? I Speaker 2 (19:56) did Google. Speaker 1 (19:56) Yeah. Speaker 2 (19:57) And postpartum psychosis popped up and I opened the Wikipedia page on it. I'm pretty sure it was Wikipedia. And I read the first few lines and I thought, oh my gosh, I think I have this. Now this is where I should have sent the link or something to my husband or called him and said, I think I Speaker 1 (20:15) have this. Speaker 2 (20:15) Because how much time has gone Speaker 1 (20:16) on now? Speaker 2 (20:17) He's about three months old. Speaker 1 (20:19) Wow. Speaker 2 (20:21) And I did not get help. Speaker 1 (20:23) Yeah. How often did you hear voices before you got help? Speaker 2 (20:27) My story goes on for 18 months undiagnosed. I... Wow. After I realized I was fighting a real mental illness, I doubled down like it was my mission to protect my family from it, including my husband. Speaker 1 (20:47) And Speaker 2 (20:48) I built up every wall and I faked it like my life depended on it because it did. What Speaker 1 (20:55) was happening, Trevor? I can see that this is hard for you to even hear now, this many years later, because your youngest son is now... Speaker 2 (21:04) Nine. Speaker 1 (21:04) Nine. Speaker 1 (21:06) So nine years later, all of this comes out because of the Lindsay Clancy trial. You feel that you're looking at yourself, that it's a mirror of your life. And when you look back at that time, what do you say to yourself about what was going on? Did you notice a difference? Speaker 6 (21:29) There were things I did notice, but I didn't understand it. Like, when she did tell me about the man with the gun, I was like, that doesn't make any sense. Why would you think that? And so I would say I was really uneducated in it to catch what was going on. But yeah, I don't like to look back. Speaker 1 (21:52) We Speaker 6 (21:52) have family photos. Speaker 1 (21:54) Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 6 (21:57) Maybe you tell that part. Yeah. Speaker 2 (22:00) When our son was about four months old, I was in a really dark place with fighting it, and I knew I couldn't keep going. So I planned family photos as the final gift. I wasn't even going to wait for the photos to come back. When we got back from taking him. You planned to kill yourself? That night, yeah. Speaker 1 (22:20) Yeah. Speaker 2 (22:21) Because it was my only way of protecting my family from myself. Speaker 1 (22:25) So you thought if you killed yourself, you would do no harm to your children. Yeah. Because you were still having the intrusive thoughts about harming your children. Just one child or all the children? I Speaker 2 (22:34) actually only had intrusive thoughts at this point about harming my baby. So when Speaker 1 (22:39) did you get help? Speaker 2 (22:40) Well, I thought maybe it would end on its own. Nowhere at that point 10 years ago did it ever say it was an emergency online. Speaker 1 (22:51) Yeah. Speaker 2 (22:52) I didn't say it was an emergency. And so I thought maybe it will get better on its own. Speaker 1 (22:58) You thought hearing voices that were telling you to kill yourself and your children. It's Speaker 2 (23:03) not logical. Speaker 1 (23:03) It's not logical, of course. Speaker 2 (23:04) I understand that. I understand it's not logical to be suicidal and want to die and be terrified you're going to be murdered. Right. I understand those things don't add up to a normal mind. And that should be a sign to yourself something's not