Oprah’s Greatest Conversations with Authors: 30 Years of Oprah’s Book Club

The Oprah Podcast

Oprah Winfrey celebrates the 30th anniversary of her Book Club with a heartfelt reflection on its origins and impact, revisiting iconic conv

Key takeaways

• The book club began as a personal passion, sparked by Oprah's desire to share transformative books like 'The Color Purple' with others.
• Oprah's early efforts involved hand-delivering books and calling authors directly—showing her deep emotional connection to literature.

Main topics

• Origins of Oprah's Book Club
• Impact of literature on identity and social awareness

Notable quotes

"I want to get the whole country reading again. Bring on the book!"

"Nobody went there. Nobody went there." – Toni Morrison on writing 'The Bluest Eye'

Conclusion

Oprah reaffirms her lifelong commitment to reading and storytelling, c

Transcript preview

Speaker 4 (0:01) Hi, and welcome to this special bonus episode of the Oprah Podcast. This year, we are celebrating the 30th anniversary of my book club, the Oprah Book Club. And I want to thank all of you for reading along with me for the last three decades. To Speaker 1 (0:19) books! To books! To books! Speaker 4 (0:23) Long before I started a book club, one of my favorite things to do was to share my love of books. And I remember when The Color Purple by Alice Walker was first published, I bought out every copy in the store in Baltimore at the time. And I used to hand them out on the bridge, walk into work to people. I would actually walk home when I moved to Chicago. I had a backpack and I would walk across the Wacker Street Bridge with my backpack. handing out the book The Color Purple. It didn't occur to me I could have had a book club and I'd have to be out there on the streets. I Speaker 1 (0:58) want to get the whole country reading again. Bring on the book! Speaker 4 (1:05) But back in the 90s, one of my producers, Alice McGee, and I used to trade books back and forth. And when we really loved a book, we would look up the author in the actual phone book. There was a thing called a phone book at one time. And then call the author to say how much their novel had meant to us. Because after you read a really good book, don't you just wish you could go talk to the author? Well, Speaker 1 (1:30) I Speaker 4 (1:30) thought, I'm Speaker 1 (1:30) going to do that. Speaker 4 (1:32) It was Alice McGee, my producer, who started out as an intern, actually, who said, if we are having this much fun together, why don't we just recommend the books to other people, to the audience? And I said, Alice, how are we going to talk about books on television? And she said, well, if you tell the audience to read the book first, and then they read the book, and then we could all come back and talk about it. And I said, okay, let's try it. And we started out with like just five minutes because we were like scurred that people wouldn't want to do it. And that, you know, believe me, all the station managers were like, what, you're going to talk about books on TV? At the time, this was a really radical idea. I Speaker 6 (2:16) bought my first book and I bought it so I would have to read it. I love you for Speaker 3 (2:20) allowing me to be able to read something that helps me identify who I am. I live for the book Speaker 4 (2:27) club. And now, today, so many well-known people, hello Reese Witherspoon, hello Jenna Bush, have book clubs. And I celebrate them and I celebrate that because it means inviting more people to enjoy reading and believing and elevating great writers who are my rock stars. Our Speaker 1 (2:50) first book to read, it is a novel written by Jacqueline Michard. It is called... deep end of the ocean. So Speaker 4 (2:57) in this episode, we are turning the pages through some of my most, most treasured conversations with some of my favorite authors. I have many more upcoming picks. I'm reading right now. I'm always, always, always reading. I'll be announcing those new picks soon on the podcast. Our partner, Amazon, has created a storefront to make it so easy for you to browse all 100 and... 20 book club selections, as well as 30 of my most memorable reads to celebrate these 30 years. So you can access it by scanning the QR code on your screen right now. And I say thanks again for joining me for all of those books. I like reading by the fire or reading under a tree. But wherever you read, I'm happy that you've been reading with me. Thank you, everybody. Speaker 1 (3:50) I love all the books we've done in the book club. Obviously, I have to read them and then choose them. Some people love a lot of them. Some people don't. But The Bluest Eye, this month's election, is so special to me. Well, you know, I have this to say about The Bluest Eye. I remember when I announced it on the show, I was saying, if you don't appreciate, love this book, then I'm really, I have nothing to say to you. And I just, and I really do mean that. It is on my list of, you know, top five great books. ever written of all time by living or dead people. And we're so glad you're still living. Tony Morrison. But I have to say, I was in an airport not too long ago, and I saw an entire row of bluest eyes, like in a major airport. And I'm telling you, my eyes started to water because I thought, Pecola. has her day. How do you feel about, I mean, I know this is a first, does it feel like your baby has finally come into me? I'm surprised how deeply Speaker 8 (4:53) emotional I am about this book and the characters. On the one hand, I still feel totally entangled emotionally, very vulnerable to them, to the characters in the book. Speaker 1 (5:10) And that's not good for a writer. As we just saw that piece where you're talking about, you know, why you wrote the book and we see all the images and the cartoons, I mean, the first time I saw that piece, you know, watching from my dressing room, I was very emotional about it and asking myself, is it, you know, some residue pain that I have or is it for all those girls? For the girl I once was, for all those girls? I Speaker 8 (5:34) think so because I had the same feeling. I thought, why is this... cutting so deeply now i wrote the book i lived the life i did this why is it hurt and i realized was my eyes were filling up whatever i was feeling it was also for those girls what started you to write it i began to write this story ostensibly about an incident that took place when i was maybe 11 or 12 years old about this girl who said she wanted blue eyes in your class And all I remembered about the moment was looking at her suddenly and seeing how extraordinarily beautiful she was. But when I looked at her and imagined her with blue eyes, suddenly the way she looked... made me gasp. Oh, I thought it was, it was like a mutilation. Yeah. The fact that she really wanted to look like a freak, which is what blue eyes would have made her look like. You know, the damage was already done for some of us. Correct. So I thought, nobody's going to remember how it really was. Nobody's, and also, there was no book about it. Nobody had... Talked about it, touched it, went there. I Speaker 1 (6:56) thought, yes. Speaker 8 (6:56) Nobody went there. Nobody went there. And I've been told a number of times in public venues early on, I don't hear this anymore, you know, I really like the book, but I was really angry with you. for writing it and putting it, sort of putting our business in the street. Speaker 1 (7:16) The business of intra-racism, the business of self-hatred and self-loathing. And skin color fights and skin privileges. That we have with it. That a lot of people who are watching us right now in a lot of states. don't even know exist because we all are just still black folks to them and they don't know. Like you all are fighting still amongst yourselves based upon grades of color. Right. The colors versus the Speaker 8 (7:42) other. And then the paperbacks. Yeah. Paper bag test. That's right. You couldn't go to certain schools. I didn't Speaker 1 (7:51) know Speaker 8 (7:51) about that. There's a paper bag test? Not now. Not anymore. You Speaker 1 (7:54) know, Speaker 8 (7:55) in the 40s and the 30s and Speaker 6 (7:57) black nightclubs in Louisiana. I Speaker 1 (7:59) never heard of that. If it Speaker 6 (8:00) was a black-owned nightclub and they wanted to Speaker 8 (8:02) keep the club. you know, above a certain hue. So they would hold a paper bag up to entrance into the club. And if you were darker than the paper bag or lighter you got in, if you were darker, you wouldn't. That was a long time ago, but it seeps into the psyche. Oh, sure. Oh, yeah. Speaker 6 (8:20) I think what I found, too, was there were a lot of things. One thing was I do, one of my daughters... Speaker 6 (8:28) moved in with us when she was older and came with this message because she's dark complected that she's ugly Speaker 8 (8:32) and Speaker 6 (8:33) to try to tell her how beautiful she is of course but i mean the direct message yeah and and that is hard because i Speaker 1 (8:42) don't know what to you know tony says a beautiful thing about the messages that we get about who we are when a child first walks in the room can you talk about that i Speaker 8 (8:52) said it's interesting Speaker 1 (8:53) to see when a Speaker 8 (8:54) kid walks in the room your child or anybody else's child do does your face light up Speaker 8 (9:03) And that's what they're looking for. When my children used to walk in the room when they were little, I looked at them to see if they had buckled their trousers, if their hair was combed, or if their socks were up. And so you think your affection and your deep love is on display because you're caring for them. It's not. When they see you, they see the critical face. What's wrong now? But then if you let your... as I tried from then on, to let your face speak what's in your heart. Because when they walked in the room, I... I was glad Speaker 1 (9:37) to see them. Speaker 8 (9:38) It's Speaker 1 (9:39) just as small as that, you see. That is what I think is so profound because that is how you learn what your value is. That's right. Not by what the person is saying to you, but what you feel. When I was growing up, my grandmother, because she had to work for a white family in Mississippi, and there's a photograph that I still have on my desk. The only photograph I have of my grandmother is with her holding this white child. And when she would come home, you know, and... whip me, chastise me, talk to me, you know, in not the most loving term. But every time she would ever talk about those white children... It was a pleasure. It was... She was Pauline. There would be this sort of glow inside her about these... white children. And that was when I read what you'd said. I thought, that's the message. That's when I first got it, that you are better if you are white. You can be loved more if you're white. If I were only white, she would love me more. I Speaker 6 (10:38) read the book again last night. And when I got to the part where the berry pie falls and... And here her own child is burned. And she goes, well, honey. And she slaps her child down on Speaker 3 (10:50) the Speaker 6 (10:50) ground. Picks Speaker 3 (10:51) her Speaker 6 (10:51) up Speaker 1 (10:51) and then slaps her again. And her leg curls underneath. And then we're concerned about berry juice on a dress. It's like, get a grip here. This is your child. This is your blood. You messed up my white folks' kitchen. You messed up my pie. But you didn't feel that was an exaggeration, did you? No. No. I mean, it's. No, I've seen that. But we've seen Speaker 8 (11:15) that. Absolutely. You've seen it and felt it. You've seen Speaker 1 (11:19) it and felt it. I have even felt it. How are you affected by the book, Diana? Speaker 6 (11:24) I think it opened my eyes. I cannot experience what you all have experienced. Even though little bits I have, I can remember being selected to be an angel in the church pageant and being told that I don't think you should be an angel because you have dark eyes and dark hair, and you do know angels are blue-eyed and blonde. No, there is Speaker 8 (11:49) this hierarchy of race. And at the top, it's sort of a Christian figure, you know, sort of long hair, blue eyes, blonde. And then everything else is down below until you get to animals. So the farther away you are from that, the less value you have. That's right. Thus, you have that, what we were talking about earlier, the paperback test, the Creole lines of distinction and color. That we took upon Speaker 1 (12:21) ourselves. Yeah, we took it, the ugliness. That's right. They Speaker 8 (12:24) cultivated it. They cultivated it. Speaker 1 (12:26) That chapter when you talk about the breed loves and their ugliness. Yeah, that was amazing. Well, every sentence is. You know, I read Toni Morrison a lot. Everybody knows I love Toni's writing. But I read it to open myself up. And there's not a time when I have come to your words when I have not been enhanced by the language. I mean, we were talking about you're truly gifted. Do you not think so? Yes, I do. I think that you are. No, I think. Okay, okay. Really be surprised if you say, oh, no. Oh, no, no, no, no. I can't Speaker 2 (12:58) say Speaker 1 (12:58) no to anybody. It just happened. I was just walking. No, I think that you are truly gifted. And I work hard at Speaker 2 (13:04) it. Speaker 1 (13:05) And she works hard at it. I love that. Speaker 1 (13:10) I think that, you know, we do lots of shows on child raising and how to handle your children. That's one of the most profound things I've ever heard. For all you moms who are worrying about dirty ears or is your hair combed, the most important thing is, which we all felt when we heard her say it, is do your eyes light up when your child walks into the room? Wasn't that big? That's profound. My Speaker 4 (13:32) 114th book club selection. We're here to talk about it today. And I just have to say, I have to stop myself from tearing up when I think about this book because it is epic. It is poignant. It is hauntingly beautiful. And I read it back in October. And I still sometimes wake up thinking about the characters. The book is called The Emperor of Gladness by celebrated author Ocean Vuong. Welcome, Ocean Vuong! Speaker 4 (14:11) I want to talk to you about being this accomplished author with so many awards, hard to mention them all. At just 36, you have a wild list of accomplishments. New York Times bestselling author, a professor of modern poetry at NYU, a multiple award-winning poet, essayist, novelist, screenwriter. You also won a MacArthur Genius Grant. And English isn't even your first language. Where does this come from, this wellspring of creativity? I have to say I was raised by women who were illiterate. And I Speaker 6 (14:50) think about this often. Where does it come from? I think even though they were illiterate, they were the first poets because they saw that when they came to this country with nothing, they realized that with language, they can make anything happen. Speaker 4 (15:05) So I just want to say you and your family immigrated. from Vietnam to the United States when you were just two years old. And I know your mother worked in a nail salon for 25 years to support the family. And she watched the Oprah show every day at four o'clock. That TV would be on. That's what you told me when I called you. Sometimes it's just us three. Speaker 6 (15:25) Me, you, and her. On slow days, I would answer the phone at the nail salon and, you know, she would be there working. What's so interesting was that when you called me... This is Oprah. Speaker 4 (15:40) How are you? This is Oprah Winfrey. How are you? Speaker 6 (15:47) I recognized the voice right away. I just didn't believe that you were talking to me for any real reason. But when I heard your voice, I said, this is the voice I heard all my life at four o'clock when Speaker 1 (16:00) I Speaker 6 (16:00) answered the phone. And, you know, I wanted to tell you this, that your voice was a kind of mediation for all of these women in the nail salon, both the workers and the people who went there to get their nails done. Because I saw them when they came in with their husbands and the husband will wait for a while and then they will leave. And after a while, it would just be all women. And I found that their voices changed with your voice among them. And as a child, it was so interesting to hear speech. Everyone talking differently. They were more vulnerable. They were more open with each other. And I got to see my mother kind of use the show as a way to open up for herself and to learn the language. She would not always understand what was happening. But she would have this little trick where she would, every time there was like an inflected moment in the show with your voice, my mother would work on a client. She'd go, oh boy. Speaker 6 (17:02) And then the client would, it always works. Any given time, you could just say, oh, boy. And then the client would say, isn't that right? And then she would learn what was happening from them because her voice, her head is down. She couldn't hear it. But I saw this kind of town square that your voice created and the themes and what was really touching for me. And I didn't understand at that time. For a community that I grew up in, working poor, immigrants, reading was very intimidating. We didn't step into bookstores or libraries. It felt like an impenetrable world that was not for us. And it was aligned with elitism and power and institutions and higher learning that we thought that ship has sailed for us. But when you held up the books in your show, my mother recognized that and says, oh. This is accessible. You're making the act of reading both accessibly dignified, but also fruitful for people who are outside of these realms of institutional elitism. And I saw the women talk about books in your show. And then they would walk across the Barnes & Noble, across the mall, and they would have language. And they would come in and they would say, this is the book I want. I know how to talk about it. And there's a kind of dignified confidence to literacy. And I don't know if anyone has talked about that, but I think that was the major byproduct that your show did is that it made working class people who don't have access to centers of knowledge. They don't get to be in a classroom and have high philosophy around craft or what have you. They get to participate in the vehicle of culture and you make culture legible to them. who often don't have that chance. So I just want to say thank you so, so much for that. Speaker 4 (18:59) Oh, my God. Now I'm going to cry. Well, I think your mother... is with us in spirit today, she would be so proud that it is now your book that I'm holding up and telling the world about her son. In 1985, 29-year-old Anthony Ray Hinton was arrested and charged with the brutal murders of two fast food restaurant workers in Birmingham, Alabama. Now, his moving, awe-inspiring memoir, The Sun Does Shine, is my latest book club selection. I just want to tell people who aren't familiar with The Sun Does Shine, I hope you will get the book and read it. It's the reason why I've chosen it as this summer's book club selection, because I just think every person should read it. So congratulations on getting this book done. And I love that you call it The Sun Does Shine. Yes, ma'am. Because those were your words. when you came outside for the first time after being held behind bars for 30 years. Yes, ma'am. And everybody was expecting you to say something. Yes. You said... The sun does Speaker 2 (20:15) shine. Speaker 2 (20:17) I never will forget that morning that exactly the judge had ordered me to be released at 9.30. And it seemed as though the sun was shining on no one but me. And I looked over at Mr. Stevens. He was shining on him as well. And I couldn't see it. And then as I walked in the fog, it was just as though the sun was following me. And I got up to the podium and I said, the sun does shine. Because I had been in pure hell and darkness for all those years. And I don't think I can even put in that book or tell you today what it's like to be on death row for something that you know you didn't do. Speaker 4 (20:57) And Speaker 2 (20:57) you put up with everything you have to put up with. Speaker 4 (21:00) Well, you know, in every story, I think people try to... imagine themselves in that story or imagine themselves, you know, what would you do or have done? I mean, just how it just would eat you up inside to know that justice was not served and now you're behind bars. So I want you to take us back, actually, to the day you were mowing your mother's lawn and you're out there cutting the grass for your mom because you were living at home with your mom. You were 29 years old at the time. Yes, Speaker 2 (21:30) yes. Speaker 4 (21:32) Would you say Speaker 2 (21:32) you're mama's boy? Because you sure did love your mama. Oh, I am. And I still love her. And although she's not here, she will always be in here. Yeah, in your heart. Oh, yes. There's not a day that go by, not a night that I don't take her photo and kiss and say goodnight, mama. Oh. In about 20, 25 minutes into cutting the grass, I happened to look up and there stood two white gentlemen that I didn't know. Then they identified themselves as two detectives. And I said, okay, how can I help you? They said, we have a warrant for your arrest. And I said, for what? And they said, we'll tell you that later, but right now, we want you to put your hands behind your back. I complied, put my hands behind my back. We proceeded to go to jail. And I asked the detective. Speaker 2 (22:19) At least 50 times. Why am I being arrested? They would not respond, would not say a word. And he finally turned around the woman that wasn't driving, and he said, you want to know why you're being arrested? I said, yes. He said, we're charging you with first-degree robbery, first-degree kidnap, first-degree attempted murder. I said, oh, I ain't done none of that. And he kind of yelled at me. Let me tell you something right now. I don't care whether you did it or didn't do it, but I'm going to make sure you found guilt of it. And as we drove a little farther down the road, if that wasn't, I guess, insult enough, he turned around and he said, by the way, there's five things that are going to convict you. Would you like to know what they are? I said, yes. He said, number one, you're black. Number two, a white man is going to say you shot him. Whether you shot him or not, he said, believe me, I do not care. He said, number three, you're going to have a white prosecutor. Number four, you're going to have a white judge. And number five, more than likely, you're going to have an all-white jury. He said, do you know what that spell? And he repeated the word conviction, conviction, conviction, conviction, conviction. This is the police officer? This Speaker 1 (23:39) is Speaker 2 (23:39) the police officer. Speaker 4 (23:40) Wow. Were you terrified? Did you realize the magnitude of the severity of what had just happened to you? I didn't because, you know. Or you're just still in Speaker 2 (23:57) disbelief? I'm in disbelief because as I talked to the detective, the detective said something profound to me that he looked at me and he said, let me tell you something. Speaker 2 (24:10) He said, I really believe you didn't do it. He said, but since y'all is always taking up for one another. Y Speaker 4 (24:17) 'all. Speaker 2 (24:18) Y'all. He used to work. He said, take this for your homeboy. And with tears down my eyes, I said, detective, I don't have a homeboy in this world that I would take a rap like this for. Hmm. And I always been brought up, Ms. Winford, to believe that the police wanted to get the right person. Yeah. But this day, for some reason, they just wanted a body. Speaker 4 (24:47) Because your mother raised you to, she's one of those strong black women, southern women. Yes. Believes in authority. Yes. Believed if you worked hard. showed up, things would turn out all right for you, just tell the truth, tell the truth, and everything will turn out all right. Yes. Go to the police, the police will help you, is what she believed, that the police were the people to help you. Yes. Based on what I read in the book, you never went back home. No. I want you to take us to the courtroom after a year and a half has passed and you're sitting in the courtroom, and after the ballistics expert... who turns out to be blind in one eye and incompetent that your lawyer had hired, messes up so terribly on the witness stand, you knew then that you were going to be Speaker 2 (25:37) sentenced. Absolutely. The prosecution crucified him. And when he asked him, did he know how to turn on the machine, he said, no, I had to ask for help. He said, and once they helped you, what did you see? He said, I didn't see anything but my fingers. He said, you never seen the bullets? He said, no, I finally seen him later on, but I seen him just one time. Where did they get this guy who sounded like a buffoon? Off the street, I believe. The DA asked him, said, how much are you getting paid? He said, well, I might get $50. I may get $100. I don't know. I may not even get anything. I just come, did the lawyer a favor. And Ms. Winford then, I swallowed. You knew it. You Speaker 4 (26:21) knew. Speaker 2 (26:21) I said, they're going to find me guilty. Because my case revolved around nothing but ballistics. Either they match or they don't match. Speaker 4 (26:28) Can you take us to the day you heard that the jury comes back in and they say guilty? Can you take us to that moment? Speaker 2 (26:38) Well, when they said guilty, I really lost sight for a few seconds. I was just totally in shock. I wanted to know what did they find me guilty on. And to me, it was nothing but a high-class lynching. And I often tell people, two white men came and arrested me. Three white men prosecuted me. A white judge sentenced me. And a white jury found me guilty. Nothing but a lynching. And everything that I ever believed in. Speaker 4 (27:25) Take your time. Speaker 2 (27:31) Everything that I believed in and was taught as a child left me. I just somehow wanted to protect my mom. I didn't quite know whether she understood. that I had been found guilty of capital murder and what that meant. And I didn't know, did she fully understand that more than likely this prosecutor was seeking the death penalty. And I kept saying, I need somehow to protect my mother. Speaker 4 (28:08) There was something you said around page 65. I wondered who would I be when this was all over. Everything good was being taken away, one small chunk at a time. Belief, family, truth, faith, justice. I wondered who I would be when this was all over. How could I be the same person? Would there be anything left after this trial? And what if they actually found me guilty? What then? Nobody believed me, and some days it felt like the whole world, except for my mom, was conspiring against me. Speaker 2 (28:40) Yes. You know, I had taken a polygraph test and passed. And the polygraph test was not admissible. Not admissible. And I'm saying... Speaker 4 (28:49) And the man who gave the polygraph test said, this guy is innocent, this guy. Speaker 2 (28:54) FBI, a retired FBI agent, and he said, I'll never forget the lieutenant asked him, how did he do? He said, if I could go by this polygraph test, I would take him out of this jail tonight. And when I passed the polygraph test and the prosecution reneged on his words saying we could use it, if I passed and if I failed it, he could use it, it just sucked every ounce of energy, every ounce of belief, everything out of me. Speaker 6 (29:24) And Speaker 2 (29:25) how, I mean, if you've been taught that justice prevails and the truth will come to light, I didn't see being convicted. I thought it meant then in the courtroom. I didn't know that I was going to spend 30 years later before the truth come out. I didn't have that. It's Speaker 4 (29:44) unbelievable. It's unfathomable. And so there was some dark nights of the soul. You went immediately into, onto death row. Yes. And you stopped speaking, literally. Three years. You Speaker 2 (30:00) did not speak. Did not speak. Every time an officer would say, what is your name? What is your social security number? What is this? I just wrote it down and gave it to them. And for three years, they thought I couldn't talk. It was as though God had taken my vocal cord, and I couldn't talk. Ms. Winfrey, when I tell you, I didn't even realize that I could have so much anger inside of me because of what had been taken from me. Yeah. And I went in this hellhole, and I just knew. Speaker 4 (30:37) I was trying to figure out, what does time become? Time because do you are you? Counting the days is there is there like calendar time in your head? Do Tuesdays or Wednesdays or Thursdays or Fridays matter if it's May or if it's December does it matter no? Speaker 2 (30:55) Time is nothing like it once were in fact time don't even exist Because you're in a place where? When they time Speaker 2 (31:09) is at the end, they gonna come get you. Yeah. And they gonna scrap you down in the chair or the garden. Speaker 4 (31:15) And as it turns out, your cell was just 30 feet from the death chamber where men would have to take the walk down your hallway with, what, eight other cells? Eight. Eight other cells, top and bottom, and walk to the death chamber. And when they were killed, you could smell their flesh burning. Yes. Speaker 2 (31:40) And Speaker 4 (31:41) in your time there, you witnessed? Speaker 2 (31:45) 54. Speaker 4 (31:46) 54 Speaker 2 (31:47) men and one woman being executed. Executed. And of all the 54, I asked the guard, I said, Officer, is there anything you can give me? So I won't have to smell the flesh burning. Flesh burning. That officer looked at me, and he said, no, there's nothing I can give you. And if there's a consolation to it, he said, you'll get used to it. And one day, somebody will smell your flesh burning. And it was at that moment, that very moment, that I escaped up here. I had to. And I often tell people, I kind of understand why about 11 men took their own life. If you can't escape up here. In your head. It's over. Speaker 4 (32:50) You can't survive. Yeah. If you're just dealing with that every day. The reality of being in this five by seven cell. So what broke it for you? It was someone crying in the night at first. It Speaker 2 (33:03) was a Speaker 4 (33:03) man who had Speaker 2 (33:04) lost his mother. Speaker 4 (33:05) Yeah. Speaker 2 (33:06) He was Speaker 4 (33:07) wailing, wailing, wailing, Speaker 2 (33:09) wailing. And this is a man that I had lived by for three years and never asked him his name, where he was from, or anything. I wasn't there to really get to know him about it. I wasn't there to make friends. All I knew, I was there for something I didn't do. And when I heard this man crying... Speaker 2 (33:30) At an early age, my mom had taught me compassion. Speaker 1 (33:33) And Speaker 2 (33:34) it was that compassion that I hollered through this brick wall. And I got up to the front of the door and I yelled out with my voice. And I said, hey, is something wrong over there? It took him a while to reply. And he finally said, I just got word my mother passed. And I told him that I was sorry to hear that other man was listening. They holler, hey, I'm sorry as well. And I told them a corny joke, and we kind of laughed just a little bit to try to break it. And I laid back down, and the next morning, I realized my voice was back as well as my sense of humor. And I ain't looked back since. Speaker 1 (34:16) I Speaker 2 (34:16) used this up here to go wherever I wanted to go and made as many people I could laugh. And Speaker 4 (34:22) you say in The Sun Does Shine, you say, I wondered why it is that the cries of another human being, whether it's a baby or a woman in grief or a man in pain, can touch us in ways we don't expect. I wasn't expecting to have my heart break that night. I wasn't expecting to end three years of silence. It was a revelation to realize that I wasn't the only man on death row. I was born with the same gift from God we are all born with, the impulse to reach out and lessen the suffering of another human being. It was a gift, and we each had a choice whether to use this gift or not. What I knew... When you're hanging at the end of your rope, does it really matter what color the hand is that reaches up to help you? What I knew was that he loved his mother just like I love my mother, and I could understand his pain. Absolutely. Speaker 2 (35:13) And the fact that mine was still alive made me appreciate her more and made me understand his loss even more. Speaker 4 (35:22) That first night when there was somebody crying on death row and then you ended up making a joke and recognizing that they lost their mom and had compassion and then the men started speaking to each other for the first time, right? And then you later found out that one of the people that you had been speaking to and had befriended was a man named Henry. Yes. Can you tell me about Henry? Speaker 2 (35:45) Well, Henry was... Speaker 2 (35:48) a Ku Klux Klan's son. His daddy was a grand wizard in the Klan's organization. And I got to learn the story. Henry's father was upset that a black man had got found not guilty in a murder trial. And he ordered him to go out and kill the first black man that they came across. And they came across a 19-year-old. I think it was 19. And they befriended him, got him somehow, tricked him in the car. They hung him and cut his genitals off. And when Henry Speaker 1 (36:21) was... Speaker 2 (36:21) This is in 1980-something, right? Yes. And as I got to know Henry and realized I didn't know who I was talking to. So you all are just Speaker 4 (36:32) voices in the day and night. Yes. Because Speaker 2 (36:35) nobody can see anybody on the road. And what I learned about Henry is that Henry had been taught to hate all his life. And myself, along with some other blacks, we didn't judge Henry because everybody was there for accused of killing someone. And so Henry and I became friends, and I kept wondering. Was it difficult to become Speaker 4 (36:59) friends with a man who you knew had been accused and found guilty, not just accused, but is on death row for lynching a young black man? No. Speaker 2 (37:08) It Speaker 4 (37:08) was not? Speaker 2 (37:09) It was not. Speaker 2 (37:11) Why was it not? It was not because I personally didn't know had Henry done that. I was there on death row for something I know I didn't do. So I couldn't just judge by him being guilty. And I never did ask him, did you do it? You didn't. I never did ask him that. I just feel that wasn't my business. And if you did it, that's between you and your God. And let me say before I end this, death row is the only place that I ever been where I didn't never witness racism. And I often thought about that. Why is it that I never witnessed racism here? It's because all of us had the same sentence, sentenced to death. We went to bed with a death sentence over our head. We woke up with a death sentence over our head. We all wore the same clothes, the same tennis shoes, the same whatever. We all ate the same thing, so it wasn't no difference. It wasn't no need to be jealous. It wasn't no need to be racist. We all was there to die. And we all had to become and somehow become each other's support system. Speaker 4 (38:11) And Speaker 2 (38:11) so... Speaker 4 (38:12) So much so that you... Created a book club. Yes. I'm very proud of my book club. I'm very proud of mine. You had your own book club. Yes, I did. What gave you the idea for the book club? The fact that you