Stop Wasting Your Energy: How to Deal With People Who Won’t Change & What to Do Instead

The Mel Robbins Podcast

Mel Robbins sits down with behavioral scientist Dr. Dolly Chugh to explore the science behind why people resist change and how to effectivel

Key takeaways

People resist change due to two mental 'bodyguards': energy conservation and ego protection.
Most behavior is driven by unconscious autopilot (11 million small 'T' thoughts), not conscious decision-making.

Main topics

Why people won't change
The science of human behavior and habit formation

Notable quotes

"You're going to feel lighter. You're going to feel more hopeful." – Dr. Dolly Chugh

Conclusion

By understanding the psychological barriers to change—energy conservation and ego protection—and shifting

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Speaker 1 (0:08) Oh, you're going to love the episode today because today you and I are going to learn how to deal with the people in your life who won't change. I mean, we love these people, but they're so frustrating, right? I know you're sick of it. I'm sick of it. Aren't you sick of wasting your time and energy trying to push other people to be better? Of course you are. Today, you're going to learn a different approach. You're going to learn how to use the research to pull the people you love. toward the changes that you want to see, and they're not even going to know you're doing it. Dr. Dolly Chug is here in our Boston studios. She is a social psychologist with three degrees from Harvard. She's also an award-winning professor at NYU Stern School of Business. Her entire field of expertise is studying why people won't change, and more importantly, how to effectively move someone else toward changing. So if you're in a frustrating pattern with someone that you love, you are listening to the exact episode that you need to hear. You're going to love this because there's so many takeaways that you and I can apply immediately. In fact, Dr. Chug is going to say, there's only three things that you can do that will inspire someone else to change. Just three. And if you're like me, you're going to realize you're probably not doing any of these three things. You're doing the things that don't work. After listening today. you will finally break free from the endless, frustrating cycle of fighting, nagging, and lecturing the people you care about. And you know what you're going to feel? Peace and power. And if you apply what Dr. Chug is about to teach you today, you may just see the people that you care about finally change. You want to know something I've really struggled with? Getting Speaker 2 (2:05) a Speaker 1 (2:06) protein. My doctor recommends I get at least 100 grams. Do you know how much protein that is? I mean, there's only so many chicken breasts and eggs that a woman can eat for crying out loud. So when I discovered this tiny little protein shot that had 23 grams of protein, I thought this is the best protein I've ever had. And that's exactly why I joined the company and became a co-founder. Pure Genius Protein. Has no artificial sweeteners or flavors. It's gluten-free, sugar-free, and fat-free. It is only 100 calories, 23 grams of delicious protein. I drink one every single morning. Use code MEL10 at puregeniusprotein.com for 10 % off your first order, 23 grams of protein in three seconds for under $3 a shot. Speaker 1 (2:53) Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so excited for the conversation today. It's such an honor to be together and to spend this time with you. And if you're a new listener, you're here because somebody shared this with you. I just want to take a moment and personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. Today, you and I are talking all about how you deal with people in your life who will not change. You're going to learn how to stop wasting your energy, and more importantly, you're going to know exactly what to do to inspire the changes you want to see in other people. You're going to love this. Dr. Dolly Chugg is an award-winning social psychologist, behavioral scientist, a professor at NYU Stern School of Business, where her classes are so popular, they're nearly impossible to get into. Dr. Chugg. is also a best-selling author who's earned three degrees from Harvard, an MBA, a master's in psychology, and her PhD in social psychology and organizational behavior. Today, she is here in our Boston studios to unpack the science that's going to help you break free from the frustrating cycle of trying to push other people that you love to change. Because there's a better way. So how about you and I learn it? Please help me welcome Dr. Dolly Chug to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I'm so Speaker 2 (4:12) thrilled to be here, Mel. Thank you for having me. Speaker 1 (4:14) I'm thrilled that you're here too. And I know that this topic is going to resonate with the person who's listening right now, and it's going to be incredibly helpful. Could you start, Dr. Chug, by telling the person who's here with us what could change about their life and their relationships if they take everything to heart that you're about to teach us? about dealing with the people in your life that are not changing. You're going to feel lighter. You're going to feel Speaker 2 (4:45) more hopeful. You're going to see a path because you're going to have tools that will help you, both when you're trying to make changes in yourself and when you're trying to make changes in other people. You're going to realize you're not alone in those moments, those messy human moments. And you're going to drop some of the frustration that you have and the expectations that you have of other people. I love that. I Speaker 1 (5:13) want to feel more free. Speaker 2 (5:14) I want Speaker 1 (5:15) to feel Speaker 2 (5:15) lighter. That Speaker 1 (5:16) sounds fantastic because the people in my life drive me crazy. And the other thing is, is I know that I drive the people in my life crazy. You know, there's that famous quote. When you know better, you do better. Maya Angelou said that. And I think that's true when you look backwards at the lessons that you've learned the hard way. Speaker 2 (5:35) But Speaker 1 (5:36) when I think about myself, I will admit that I often know better. But I don't do better. And your research really sits at the heart of knowing better, but we don't do better. Why is it, Dr. Chug, that we can know better? We know we should not be drinking tonight. We know we should go to the gym this morning. We know that we shouldn't spend money on that thing that we don't need because we're supposed to be saving for somebody. We know we shouldn't snap at our kids, but we don't do it. Speaker 2 (6:12) There's two. key insights that really help me from the science of human behavior here. And I like to think of these insights as understanding our mind as having bodyguards. Okay, Speaker 1 (6:26) hold on. Our mind has bodyguards? Our mind has these two big bodyguards that are Speaker 2 (6:32) keeping out change and keeping out growth. And here's what those two bodyguards are all about. I call one of them energy and one of them ego. Speaker 2 (6:42) Energy Bodyguard is trying to preserve my energy. They're trying to make my life as easy as possible. And that means that a lot of what we do is on autopilot. Let me give you an example. I'm going to snap my fingers. And in that snap of a fingers, you just had 11 million thoughts. Speaker 1 (7:06) Wait, what? Right. 11 million? Yes. No. Speaker 2 (7:10) There's a study Speaker 1 (7:11) that says that Speaker 2 (7:13) there is so much of our mind on autopilot. Like, for example, let's say you had a long day and now you're heading home, you're driving or you're taking a subway or a bus or you're riding the bike or you're walking and you get home, you walk in the door. And you realize you don't remember anything about that commute home. You don't remember red lights or green lights or did you get a seat on the bus? Speaker 1 (7:35) You just did it because you've done it a million times. Well, you know what I think is I literally say to myself, oh, my God, what just happened? What just happened? Where Speaker 2 (7:42) was Speaker 1 (7:42) I? Speaker 2 (7:43) Right. But the good news is, is that's your body and your brain doing everything it should conserving energy. That's the bodyguard. putting you on autopilot, letting you do the things you know how to do without having to think too hard about it. Okay, got it. So I call those little T thoughts, not capital T thoughts, right? And even right now, the fact that you and I can understand each other, that we sort of know which direction to face, that we can detect the temperature in the room and the feeling of our clothes on us, but we're not necessarily big T thinking about it. So in that snap of the fingers, 11 million. little tea thoughts. They say maybe like 40 big tea thoughts, actual thoughts. Like you're thinking, what should I say next? Is this microphone the correct distance? All those are big tea thoughts. And these are Speaker 1 (8:32) all happening simultaneously and I'm not even really Speaker 2 (8:34) aware of Speaker 1 (8:35) it. Speaker 2 (8:35) We're not even aware of it because that's the brilliance of being a human being is that we are able to... do that. And that's because we have this mental bodyguard that's protecting our energy. And some people refer to it as our unconscious mind is doing a lot of the work. So when we talk about, if we go back to the question of why, when I know something, don't I do it? Yes. Sometimes knowing is... Talking about those capital T thoughts, right? The 40, not the 11 million. But there's still a whole lot going on in our unconscious mind, in our habits, in our reflexes that are going to keep us in a space that isn't closing that gap between knowing and doing. Speaker 1 (9:16) Okay. Speaker 2 (9:16) So that's one thing. Energy. Speaker 1 (9:18) Energy. Yes. Speaker 2 (9:19) There's a second bodyguard. Uh-oh. And this one's even bigger. This bodyguard is trying to protect, call it our ego, call it our self, call it our identity. It's whatever it is that makes us feel like the person we mean to be. There's a study that looked at how much we value having affirmation, having sort of validation of these identities we care about, whatever they are, more than your favorite food. more than time with a friend, more than your favorite sex act. We really, really like to protect our identity and our ego, whatever that means. So Speaker 1 (10:03) can you give me an example? Speaker 2 (10:04) Let's say that I consider myself like some, an identity I care about is being considered kind and warm. That's, that's how I define being a good person. And I am walking around my neighborhood one day. It's beautiful out. And I think, you know what? Let me take this work call. It's, you know, audio only. Let me just put the little AirPod in. I'm working from home today and do this call while I'm walking. It's an important work call. I'm listening intently. Speaker 2 (10:33) I unknowingly blow off a neighbor. I'm in my work hall. My little Airpods tucked in my ear. They probably don't see it. They wave. And I hear later that they reported that I blew them off to someone else. They tell other neighbors that there she is being a bit standoffish. Speaker 1 (10:55) bothers me a lot. Speaker 2 (10:57) A lot. Now, there are other people whose identity isn't as tied up and being seen as kind and warm and friendly and that kind of neighbor that says hello to everybody. They may not care. But for me, that really bothers me. So we've got these two bodyguards that are going to always want to push away anything that suggests changing what we're doing or growing into being someone else if it threatens our energy or our ego in the moment? So you just explained to me why the Speaker 1 (11:30) people that I love, who I'm worried about, don't take better care of themselves. Okay. So for example, it takes a lot of energy to lift weights, to eat healthy, to go for a walk, especially when you haven't. Right. Speaker 2 (11:46) And Speaker 1 (11:46) if your ego and something that you value is, I'm in control of me. Nobody tells me what to do. Yes. My desire for you to now lift weights because your doctor said so or to start walking because I think it's important for you to prevent dementia or for you to eat healthy because I'm worried about the weight you're putting on, I'm now threatening one of your core values, which is I'm my own person. Don't tell me what to do. Wow. You just nailed it. And that's called Speaker 2 (12:14) agency. It's a fundamental human need that I'm my own person. Don't tell me what to do. Speaker 1 (12:20) Now, can you do that to yourself? Because I often feel like I'm such a, whether you call it control freak or rebel, that I even rebel against my own attempts to make myself. You know what Speaker 2 (12:35) I'm saying? Speaker 1 (12:37) I'm the world's worst employee because I hate being told what to do. Unless I understand why I need to do it. And even when I try to tell myself what to do, I notice I negotiate with myself and push back. And I think you just explained why. Speaker 2 (12:53) I think that's right. I think that's right. It's the Speaker 1 (12:55) bodyguard of the ego. Nobody tells Mel Robbins what to do, not even Mel Robbins. Can you show me, Dr. Chug, this gap between knowing better but not doing? better. All Speaker 2 (13:10) right, Mel, I'm going to ask for your help with this. I'm going to pull Speaker 1 (13:12) out a little prop. You ready? Okay, got it. Okay. All right. So what Speaker 2 (13:17) I'm going to show you here is this poster board has words written in different color fonts. You might notice that there's red, there's orange, there's green, pink, blue, and we've got about 15 words. And what I want you to do is I'm going to point to a word and you just tell me what color it's in. Speaker 1 (13:38) Okay. Speaker 2 (13:38) All right, Mel, you got it. Go. Speaker 1 (13:40) Red, orange. I'm just doing color, right? Yep, yep. Green, pink, blue, green, blue, red, yellow, green. Freshen it. Blue, yellow, pink, green, orange. Oh, Speaker 2 (13:53) you Speaker 1 (13:53) did so well, Mel. Now, here's what I want to point out to the person listening. The word is the same as the color. So she's pointing to the first word. The word is red. But it's also red. Yeah. When you pointed to the second, the word is orange and the color of the word is also orange. Yes. Okay, now what's happening? I think Speaker 2 (14:09) you're catching on here now because I now like you. I'm flipping the chart. Now let me just tell Speaker 1 (14:15) the person listening, every word is a color, but the actual color that the word is written in. is different from the word. So she's about to point to the word green, but it's actually printed in the color orange. Speaker 2 (14:30) Exactly. And I want to point out before you do it, Mel, that right now what you just did was you were able to narrate to me exactly what we're doing. So that's the knowing. Speaker 1 (14:41) We talked about the different people who know Speaker 2 (14:43) and do. So you know what we're doing. Yes. Let's see if you can do it. Speaker 1 (14:49) Okay. Speaker 1 (14:52) This is like a brain scramble. Oh, that's all right. Wait, am I reading the word or telling you the color? You're telling me the color. You're Speaker 2 (14:59) asking my mom Speaker 1 (14:59) to do two different things. I Speaker 2 (14:59) know, Speaker 1 (14:59) you can do it. Try harder. Wait, I'm telling you the color? Telling me the color. Of the word. The color of the font. Is orange the right answer? Yes. Oh, God. Even though the word is green. Okay. Red. Good. Pink. Yes. Yellow. Oh, blue. Orange. Speaker 1 (15:21) Blue. Red. Yes. Green. Yes. Orange. Yes. Speaker 1 (15:29) Pink, green, blue, yellow, red. Okay, my brain all of a sudden went like, it got it. Right. By the last column. Right. I was not faking that, by the way. Speaker 2 (15:39) So Mel, what you just did is called the Stroop test. Stroop? Speaker 1 (15:42) Like strep and poop is one thing. Stroop? Yeah, that's a good way to remember it. And why did you show us that? And what does it have to do with change? Speaker 2 (15:52) What you were trying to do is take two things that happen really quickly for you. One of them is detecting color. Yes. And one of them is reading. So those two effortless activities were no longer effortless because they conflicted with each other. They contradicted each other. So what I asked you to do in that moment was Speaker 1 (16:12) unlearn reading. Whoa. And what you experience. When being asked to do something that you have to unlearn. Speaker 2 (16:21) And Speaker 1 (16:21) I bet as you were watching on YouTube, you felt the same thing as I felt this internal friction and resistance. And that's always there. Whenever I have to do something that I've either never done before or I don't want to, whether it's getting off the couch or putting the phone down or trying something I've never tried before, I feel that same, what? Speaker 2 (16:47) That's right, because that's what unlearning feels like. That's what change feels like. That's what growth feels like. Unlearning is a two-step process because first I've got to let go of the thing I already know how to do. And then I've got to learn the new thing. And so when we're asking other people to change, I'm not saying we shouldn't ask for that and that we