Scott Ian | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Anthrax co-founder Scott Ian joins Billy Corgan to trace the evolution of thrash metal from its underground roots in New York to global aren

Key takeaways

• Anthrax released 'Cursum Perficio', their first studio album in ten years.
• Scott Ian recounts witnessing Metallica's early rehearsals in a dilapidated Queens building.
• The importance of Johnny Z (John Zazula) and Megaforce Records in promoting underground metal acts.
• Ian shares a memorable story about receiving backstage passes from Ronnie James Dio via a hotel door slip.
• A firsthand account of being present during the pivotal moment Dave Mustaine was fired from Metallica.

Main topics

• History of Thrash Metal
• Anthrax's recent album release
• Early Metallica and Megaforce Records

Notable quotes

It was the greatest day of music I've ever been a part of as a fan or as a guy in a band.

Conclusion

A nostalgic deep dive into the grit and passion that built the heavy m

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) With Anthrax, we created an environment where we are able to do what we love and do what we want to do and have fun doing still after all this stuff. You ended up in one of the great bands. Right. Speaker 3 (0:12) And you pioneered something that is now a global phenomenon. I always looked at it as, it's just about music that moves me. My first impression of you as a person, personally, was how open-minded you were. What I'm doing is great and everybody should Speaker 2 (0:30) like it. Speaker 3 (0:32) Scott Ian, nice to see you today. Yeah, nice to see Speaker 2 (0:34) you. Thank you for Speaker 3 (0:34) coming in. Speaker 3 (0:37) new album out tell me the title because i'm going to mess it up so i'm you know we found out there's no way Speaker 2 (0:42) to mess it up okay uh it's cursum proficio you're asking a lot of metal fans here well yeah and i kind of like that it's it's latin for your journey is complete your journey is over and uh a friend of ours who knows the head of the latin department at columbia in new york yes um asked What is the proper pronunciation? And very long story short, as nobody knows, he said, Perficio would be the more ancient version of it. Perficio would be a more modern version of it. He goes, so basically you could say it however you want. Speaker 3 (1:19) And you know, in New Jersey, it's going to turn into Perfico. Yeah. Oh, Perfic. Carson Perfic. First album in 10 years. I was surprised by that. Because you guys have been working pretty. Speaker 2 (1:32) That's kind of why. Because the last album came out in 16 and we toured it. I'm really good with this. I have like a steel trap for dates when it comes to the band. This helps, yeah. We finished touring that record in November of 19 and with the intent of taking off for the holidays and then getting back together early 20 to start working on. the demos and stuff and riffs and ideas for the next record. Of course, COVID hit. And so we spent a year and a half, just like everybody else, wondering, do we ever get to be a band again? Yeah. But sending demos all over, you know, working on stuff individually, but that's not how it really works for us. And so finally, it was either late 21 or early 22, we were able to get in a room together and start arranging songs, Speaker 3 (2:25) Charlie and Mikey. But even then, that's still a long process to... Speaker 2 (2:28) Yeah. So it was... But from that point, it took us, let's say from... It was January 1, 22. I had the finished mastered record in my hand in November of 25. Okay. So... Yeah. You sent me some stuff today and I wrote you back and I said, Speaker 3 (2:44) you guys never sounded better. Thank you. And I said that with some authority because I had you guys from the first album on. So I was listening. all the way back down. I can't believe it's 83? Speaker 2 (2:57) January 84, Speaker 3 (2:58) Festivale came out. Okay, so I had that then. Right. You know what I mean? Because I was into, well, we'll get there. But I mean, I dove into that scene early. I was lucky because I was around people who were early and on Metallica. Right. So, you know, as soon as you find a band like Metallica, Kill Em All, you start going, wait, what is this? Something's happening. You start reaching for anything connected. Sure. Speaker 2 (3:22) Thankfully, people were like, we'll check them out too. Were you at their first Metro shows? No, Speaker 3 (3:28) I wasn't. I was in a weird spot in my life when I was a teen because I didn't really have any money and I wasn't living in the city. Got it. And occasionally I would go in to see shows. So I saw him sort of right when Ride the Lightning was coming out. Oh, okay. And I saw Slayer on Rain and Blood. Yeah, I was sort of, that was the, but. Just before that, I missed all that. Got it. So I see those videos on Speaker 2 (3:55) YouTube and I'm like, ugh. Yeah, that's the famous one where Kirk kind of puts his guitar over there. Yeah, something happened. And Speaker 3 (4:00) then Speaker 2 (4:00) they take it. Yeah, yeah. That's the great nightmare of Speaker 3 (4:03) all time. But like, you know, I kicked myself because I missed Merciful Fate. Wow, yeah. There's Speaker 2 (4:08) a Speaker 3 (4:08) legendary show I miss, like Merciful Fate, the Eragon Ballroom on Halloween. Speaker 2 (4:12) You're just like, oh Speaker 3 (4:14) my God. Yeah, yeah. Of all things. I Speaker 2 (4:16) got the Speaker 3 (4:16) chills when Speaker 2 (4:16) you just said that. Me too. I Speaker 3 (4:18) can Speaker 2 (4:18) imagine. Speaker 3 (4:19) I remember being at the Metallica show, the Lightning show, talking to, you know, you're just a metal fan. You end up talking to some guy next to you. He Speaker 2 (4:28) was like, oh, I just saw Merciful Fate here for Halloween. You're like crying. I Speaker 3 (4:33) still remember opening the newspaper at my aunt's house, and it was Blizzard of Oz tour. and going, and I was in love with the record, right? And looking and going, no one will take me. You know, just being in that place in my life. Right. Because we live far enough outside the city, it wasn't like I could walk to a show. Yeah, yeah. You had to have a buddy or... Right. Speaker 2 (4:54) You know, so... You mentioned the Aragon. I mean, did you guys, did you realize when you were going to shows there? Well, I mean, maybe not because you weren't going to shows in other cities at that time. But Chicago was like... That was the craziest place for us anyway. Like the Chicago shows were the craziest shows back then in the country. We played the Aragon the first time in 87. And that was still to this day, one of the greatest crowds we ever played. Speaker 3 (5:25) Yeah. So it lends some understanding because a lot of people, especially when we came out to LA, which, you know, the band, my bands always had great popularity in LA. A lot of people were sort of confused by the bands. metal side but growing up in chicago in that scene right and seeing yngwie and you know michael shanker group and judas priest i mean rush bands that are legendary in my home community right the translation much like i think for you to metal into alternative it's like in my mind it was all kind of the same yeah and then suddenly you go you meet some snob in new york or la and they're like You can't like Black Sabbath. And it was kind of like, I was like, huh? What do you mean I can't like? I literally grew up with people who worship these bands. It wasn't trendy to like Black Sabbath. Black Sabbath was like a religion for the people I grew up around. Yeah. And then you had your Yes fans, but they were stoners. And, you know, you understand because you grew up in the same. Of course. I kind of want to start here. Speaker 3 (6:26) you know, um, because it, it, it, it's an interesting conversation. I think that gets into the bigger thing that I'm after, but so indulge me here. But I think the first place to start is the back to the beginning show, which we were both blessed to be at. Um, and, uh, For someone like you who saw Sabbath back in the day, I think you saw him in 78 was the first time. I saw him, yeah, with Van Halen. Van Halen. I'll get there in a second. But, I mean, did you, like me, have that surreal moment of like, and I knew you toured with Ozzy. I'm not saying it was your first time to stand there, but there we both are, Sabbath's last show in their hometown, a mile from where they grew up, and there we're invited. Yeah. Like that's a different vibe. Yeah. If you love those bands, like we love those bands. So if you could talk about that a bit. It Speaker 2 (7:14) was, it was the greatest day of music I've ever been a part of as a fan or as a guy in a band. It's hard not to talk about it without starting to cry or get choked up because just like you said, we were invited to that. I, when, when I got the email as are we available? you know, July 5th. I Speaker 3 (7:39) was like, are you Speaker 2 (7:41) really asking me this question? Like, um, it was, it was unbelievable on so many levels. First. Yeah. I mean, even stupid little things like walking in to the stadium and seeing the dressing room sign with your band's name on it, black, you know, it's black Sabbath and back to the beginning. And then, you know, anthrax dressing room. Uh, I, you know, I. I took a picture of it and I took one. You know what I mean? Like it was just such a, it was just such an amazing thing to get to be a part of the privilege to get to share the stage with them and everyone else that day. And the other thing, you know, I mean, they, they asked us to be a part of their bow, their, their goodbye there. They felt. There was a connection there that we deserve to be a part of that. Speaker 3 (8:32) And I don't know that I'll ever get my Speaker 2 (8:34) head Speaker 3 (8:35) around that. Yeah. So let's go, because that sets up kind of what I'm out there. See, for me... Because like I said, I didn't get to see those bands in their youthful prime. So for me, everything, my conception of Ozzy, Sabbath, all these great bands was all in my head. No YouTube. You'd occasionally see them on TV. There was that weird like black and blue movie. Remember? It was like Black Sabbath and Bloister Cult, whatever that was. Yeah. Okay. Speaker 2 (9:04) But you actually, there you are, is it Madison Square Garden? I saw it at the Coliseum, Nassau Coliseum. Okay, Speaker 3 (9:09) great. Speaker 2 (9:09) So there you are at the Nassau Coliseum. Van Halen, this band, have you Speaker 3 (9:12) heard of them yet? Yes. Okay. Yes. So you kind of knew what you were walking into a little bit. Okay. And then famously Van Halen at that point was just blowing people off the stage. Speaker 2 (9:21) Okay. Speaker 3 (9:21) So walk me Speaker 2 (9:22) through that because that sets up today's journey through your life. Sabbath was on their last, literally on their last leg with Ozzy at that point. Speaker 3 (9:32) Yeah. And this is, is this with Ozzy when, when Tony moved him to the side, it was never say die tour. Right. But isn't Ozzy loft to the side? Like there's that weird thing where Tony was like Tony's band. So Tony's in the middle now and Ozzy stood. Speaker 2 (9:45) I don't, I can't. Okay. It's fine. But, but, uh, I, I will, if I'm being honest, me and my friends who went to that show were very much, we were excited about seeing Sabbath for the first time. But we were more excited about seeing Van Halen because at that point they were the ones that, I mean, they were the... They were the sh**. And so, yeah, they were everything we wanted. And getting to see Eddie actually live and getting to see what he was doing. And, you know, that was just insanity. And then Sabbath came on and I had fun and I enjoyed it. Yeah. But it wasn't, I had imagined that they were probably better like five years ago, you know, on Master of Reality or something. And, uh, um, and then of course they, Sabbath broke up not too long. Yeah. You kind of saw them right at the, they broke up. Well, they didn't break up, but Ozzy was out of a bang. Not too long after that. And then I saw them a few times on heaven and hell and, and, and, uh, mob rules. But, uh, just getting to see them then was incredible. You know, when you're standing in a room with the people that you, they didn't even seem real to me. The idea. The idea of these humans, Ozzie and Tony and Geezer and Bill, and then you're standing in this arena and, you know, and there they are, you know, 50 feet away. It just seems it was otherworldly, you know, they were, whereas Van Halen still felt very real in that moment because they felt very street still. Yeah. They weren't, they weren't. The stadium band, they were, well, they were, but they weren't Speaker 3 (11:30) actually yet. Yes. I had the same thing when I first saw Metallica. I thought, this is different because they feel like guys I'm going to high school with. Right. And somehow we're on stage, the we, and it felt like a we thing. Yes. Even Slayer is similar. It was like, these are guys I grew up with, but I don't know them. But I mean, it's the vibe. It definitely felt like that. But the era we grew up in where... the Sabbaths of the world were like, they were like mythical creatures. They Speaker 2 (11:54) were Speaker 3 (11:54) gods. Is it strike you as funny? This is a weird leading question, but it strikes me as funny that in our minds, we built these people up. Right. And then later we get to know them as human beings and we realize they're just people. I mean, they are what they are, which they are legends. There's nothing to take away from their legend and they deserve every ounce of it. But at some point you're like, oh, it's not what I thought it was. And oh, by the way, they were just young guys. Right. Probably totally bewildered. Yeah. By the business or the or whatever was going on. Yeah. So we we all kind of meet in the middle somewhere in the 70s and 80s where we've built these bands up and the bands can't quite live live up to the hype. And this and this change starts to happen after the original rock dinosaurs start to kind of fade away. Right. Of course, now the music has endured and we understand the difference. But at the time, they were kind of getting wiped out. Speaker 2 (12:44) Yeah. A hundred percent. I mean, Van Halen, case in point, you know, Speaker 3 (12:49) there's even stuff where like Van Halen opened, open for kiss and was blowing kiss off the stage. Right. You Speaker 2 (12:54) couldn't, you couldn't. I saw Judas priest open for kiss in 79. So that's unleashed in the East times. Right. And, um, yes, I think it was technically that band right around that is lethal. And at that point, I was already out of Kiss. My Kiss window was 75 to 78. Yeah. And then the Kiss Alive 2 was like the last thing I bought and the solo albums. And then in 79, they're back, whatever that next record was. And Priest is opening and me and all my friends, we went to see Priest and we left. We didn't even stay for Kiss. That's the assholes we were already becoming. But think about how Speaker 3 (13:33) crazy that is. Speaker 2 (13:35) You love Kiss. You see Kiss in Destroyer Tour somewhere around there, right? I saw him on Rock and Roll Overture and then Love Gun Tour. I mean, peak Kiss. Yeah, December 77 at the Garden. Speaker 3 (13:47) And within Speaker 2 (13:47) two years, Speaker 3 (13:48) you're like, eh. Well, Speaker 2 (13:49) because that next record they made, I wasn't into it. Speaker 3 (13:52) But isn't that interesting, though? When you look back, you're like, but that's that youthful energy of like, no, I want something new. Well, I was always Speaker 2 (14:00) looking for... Me and my friends were always looking for what's the next heaviest, what's the next most aggressive thing. So by 79, I had already, obviously I was into Priest. I was into a lot of the British bands at that point. I love the Scorpions too, you know, German, of course. But we couldn't believe we were getting to see Priest, ACDC. you know, was already like at the top of Speaker 3 (14:27) my list at that point. Sorry, but to put this in context, you were the metal fan that was going Speaker 2 (14:32) like at 4 p.m. to hang out outside by the loading docks to meet the bands. And yes, you were that guy. Trying, trying so hard to get a gig. Can you talk about some of Speaker 3 (14:39) those experiences? Because I know you got some cool stories. Like, I like where you went and knocked on Ronnie James Dio's... Speaker 2 (14:45) That was Speaker 1 (14:46) one story. Speaker 3 (14:47) Hotel tour? Speaker 2 (14:48) Well, a friend of mine tells me, I think this was Mob Rules Tour, and a friend of mine tells me, I can get backstage passes from Ronnie. And I'm like, bulls**t. Like, how do you know? And he goes, I'm telling you. So it was kind of like that Seinfeld episode where George is driving the car and he's with his fiance's parents and he's taking them to this supposed... cabin that he has and he refuses to give up the lie that he doesn't even have this cabin. And that's what I figured, you know what? I'm just going to go with this. I'm going to make him take me all the way out to the Meadowlands to the arena in Jersey to finally go, aha. Yeah. And, uh, so we do, we go into the city, we go to Port Authority, we take a bus out to Jersey, we go to the Meadowlands Hilton where the band is staying. And I'm like, he's really, really. like stringing this along. I can't believe he let, like, let us get on the bus. Like he's really, he really believes this is going to happen. And we walk into the Hilton and he, and, uh, we get in the elevator and we go up to a room. I'm like, what the, he's just going to knock on someone's door and he knocks on a door. And like 30 seconds later, I, you hear someone go, who's there. And I could tell it's Ronnie. I could hear the voice and he goes, Ronnie, it's Jimmy. He goes, Oh, Hey, Jimmy. Uh, I literally just got out of the shower. I'm in a towel. Hold on. And then an envelope comes out from under the door and it's two laminates. Greatest day of your life. Yeah. And I just look at him. I'm like, I can't believe this. Like, and he's like, I told you. And so we, you know, we went to the show. The show was amazing. We had first row against the, and then afterwards we were in some green room and Ronnie was the only one who came in at the time. I didn't get to meet anyone else. But Ronnie came in and, oh, you must be Scott. And we talked and blah, blah, blah. And I remember the Anthrax was infancy stages at that time. And I mentioned, what do you do? I play in a band and we haven't done anything yet. We're trying. He's all, keep at it. You know, keep going, blah, blah, blah. Keep doing what you're doing. And cut to, long story short, 87, Anthrax is playing Castle Donington, the Monsters of Rock Festival. And the bill that day from top to bottom was... Bon Jovi, Dio, Metallica, Anthrax, Wasp, Cinderella. And it's 80,000 people and whatever backstage. And I see Ronnie and I walk over and to say hello to him. And he looks at me, he goes, New Jersey mob rules, right? Meadowlands, you're with Jimmy. And I was like. Speaker 2 (17:29) You remember Speaker 3 (17:30) that? Speaker 2 (17:30) He was like, Dio was a mythical creature. He was like, it was only like five years ago. Like, and he goes, and I remember you telling me about your band Anthrax. It's like not a name you forget. And, and, and here you are playing a show together. He's like, you did it. You know, I was, I couldn't believe it. That's amazing. Speaker 3 (17:52) What was it about that culture for you? I have my own Chicago impression of that. And I'm going to loosely call it like metal culture. In a way, it was like an alternative culture. It wasn't alternative rock, but it was alternative in that you either had to be a fan and you either had to be in it. And metal fans were constantly testing whether you were really in it or you were just a poser. Right? Yes. What was it about that culture that attracted you so deeply? Speaker 2 (18:23) Well, I mean, you know, obviously... You Speaker 3 (18:25) spent Speaker 2 (18:25) your life in it now. It starts with the music that moved me. Yeah. The music just made me feel... I didn't know what a mosh pit was yet, but it made me feel like I wanted to do that with my body. And then, of course, when I finally started going to hardcore shows in the early 80s, I got to physically experience that, and the catharsis of that was even better than going to a... A metal show. You're wearing Bad Brings, right? I mean, one of the greats. You know, banging my head and my fist and all that was great at shows, but then that next level of getting in mosh pits and stage diving, and that was really the catharsis I had been looking for. And it's the music. It just makes me. I can't help myself. It's almost like it's just involuntary. It's an involuntary reaction to a sound that I have no control over. Charlie starts playing the drums, I start headbanging. It's just, I can't control it. Well, Speaker 3 (19:19) that's the enduring image in my mind of watching you from the side of a stage and watching you enjoy playing. Yeah. It's hard to explain if somebody doesn't know what that looks like, if they don't know you or know your band, but that's my enduring image of you is enjoying the show through you. Speaker 2 (19:37) Thank you. But yeah, I loved it. And the culture was still... It was still so small. I went to a high school that had like 3,500 kids in Bayside, Queens. And there was maybe eight of us that had long hair and leather jackets and rock t-shirts. And we would all sit at the same table at lunch and someone would always have a little boom box with a cassette. And we were always trying to one up with each other every week coming in with a new tape. Have you heard this? Like, I remember my friend David, when he came in with Van Halen one and he had eruption queued up. And he's like, check this out. And everyone sits there all like, okay, let's see what you got. And he starts eruption and it was literally seven jaws on the ground. You know, all the rest of us Speaker 3 (20:20) just play it Speaker 2 (20:22) again Speaker 3 (20:22) and Speaker 2 (20:23) again and again and again. And no one knew what he was doing. Like, and that's what we did. That's what I did all through high school. Like it was me and my close knit group of friends. And that's how I met Danny Looker, who I, we co-founded Anthrax together in 81. And, um, And started going to shows, like I said, 78, 79 and 80. Any, any way I, I, I had no money either. I didn't have money. I would work any job, do anything I can just to either be able to buy tickets to shows or gear, you know, somehow, you know, buy it, go get a new fuzz box or save up for an amp or, um, that's, that was my whole life. It's all I cared about was going to shows and buying gear. And that, that was it. And finding my people like-minded people. Like, that's how I met Charlie, because he was a guy I would see Charlie at shows before I knew him years before. OK. Anthrax was a band. And Frankie, you know, I would see those guys at shows and turn out. But 83, it turns out we had a mutual friend. And that's how they came into the Speaker 3 (21:27) band. What was it? What was it about the rhythm guitar? Because, you know, as you know, coming in the metal thing, you know, most people want to be shredders. I wanted to be a shredder. My whole life was trying to be Yngwie for about two years, you know? Right. But what was it about rhythm that attracted you? I think it was... Because you kind of own being a rhythm guitar player in a way that most guys don't. And when I think of rhythm guys, Malcolm Young, obviously, and Keith Richards, right? Yeah. It's like they own the idea of like, no, I play rhythm. Right. Speaker 2 (21:59) Yeah. That's what I do. But it's not a long lineage of guys that are rhythm guys. And then, well, Rudolf Schenker. Yeah, Rudolf. Johnny Ramone, of course. I consider, even though he plays a whole bunch of leads, Tony Iommi, consummate, you know, basically invented and created the riffs that the whole scene I came out of, you know. Tony. Yeah. It was just a thing. I think it really comes from the fact that I didn't have the patience to sit and learn the leads. When I would sit with a record and slow it down to 16 and try and learn the solos on an Aerosmith record or a Kiss or ACDC or whoever, Sabbath, I would try and learn the solos and I would get frustrated and I'd try and I would try and... Meanwhile, I'd already know all the chords to the song. I could play the song from start to finish. I could play the rhythm guitar part. I didn't even know it was called rhythm guitar. I was just like, I know the chords, but it's going to take me a month to learn the solo. I could learn the whole album in the time it's going to take me. And it really came out of that. So you could either call it laziness or just the frustration at it that I couldn't just pick that part up. as quick as I could, I could learn the chords like that. Yeah. But I couldn't learn the solo like that. And that's, I just, that's what I just kept doing after that. And I guess at some point when I did realize what rhythm guitar, like, oh, Malcolm, he's the rhythm. Oh, Angus plays all the leads. He plays the chords too, but he plays all the solos, but Malcolm's the guy playing all the chords and writing all the songs. Oh, Tony, he's playing all the chords and writing most of the songs. And, you know, Johnny Ramone, okay, he's playing all the chords and he's like, that's what was in my head. It was like, the guy that plays the chords writes the songs. Of course, that didn't hold up once Anthrax really got going. But that was what was in my brain as like a 14 and a 15-year-old, you know, trying to learn how to play guitar. Speaker 1 (24:08) All it takes is one missed call. 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Try Quo for free, plus get 20 % off your first six months when you go to quo.com slash magnificent. That's Q-U-O dot com slash magnificent. It Speaker 3 (25:17) strikes me that's a bit of a New York thing that, because your band has notoriously had about like 400 different Speaker 2 (25:22) lineups. But not really. Well, yes and no, but Speaker 3 (25:25) I was literally reading about you and I'm like. And then so-and-so joined for two months. Well, yeah, the first three years. But it's not an accusation about your band. I'm saying it seems to me to be very much a New York thing that there's a lot of people shifting bands. Does that seem accurate to you? Not to Speaker 2 (25:45) me, really. Speaker 3 (25:46) Maybe to Speaker 2 (25:46) a Chicagoan. We've had me, Charlie, Frankie, and Joey have, I mean... Speaker 2 (25:54) with little detours here and there, we've been together in a band. Me, Charlie, and Frankie have been together since 1984. Okay. You know? Speaker 3 (26:03) Maybe it was just reading about the early formations of the band. The early formation years, yeah. It was like basically, Speaker 2 (26:07) you don't have 20 bucks for the rehearsal studio, you're fired. But as I was saying, it