Producer/Musician Shooter Jennings | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - Billy Corgan

In this episode of 'The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan,' musician and producer Shooter Jennings shares intimate reflections on his par

Key takeaways

Shooter Jennings reflects on his parents' unique bond—where his mother's unconditional acceptance allowed his father's wild lifestyle to coexist with deep emotional intimacy.
The episode highlights how country legends like Waylon Jennings embodied a rare blend of masculine strength and emotional vulnerability, which is now largely absent in modern music.

Main topics

The relationship between Shooter Jennings' parents, Waylon Jennings and Jessi Colter
Masculinity and emotional expression in country music history

Notable quotes

"She just understood. She understood the type of guy he was, understood that if she tried to build the walls around him, he was going to fly."

"It was like the most manly thing in the world in a weird way—this tender, vulnerable love song from Willie or Waylon."

Conclusion

Through candid storytelling and deep personal reflection, Shooter Jennings and Billy Corgan illuminate the

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) I pour like water on top of my head because I think I'm being rock and roll and I fling my hair around and I jump off the drum riser and immediately slip in the pool of water that I've just created below my Speaker 3 (0:10) feet. You couldn't get signed to save your life no matter what you tried. Oh, Speaker 1 (0:13) music is subjective and objective. Speaker 3 (0:15) I listen to Stargun. Oh no, Speaker 1 (0:17) gosh, you're gonna have to, you're gonna undo some of your good music knowledge by listening to that stuff. I mean... Speaker 3 (0:22) Yes, your dad. Yes, your mom. Yes, music. But let's talk about what really matters. Art Bell. I'm Speaker 1 (0:26) sure a million people on the internet are going to scream at me over this in my ignorance, but I don't care. And Speaker 3 (0:32) so I'm going to go home in a couple of days. I'm going to tell them, Shooter doesn't believe you. Yeah. Speaker 3 (0:39) Shooter Jennings, so good to see you. So Speaker 1 (0:41) nice to be here. Speaker 3 (0:42) I was watching a clip this morning because I'm a Wayland guy. I keep getting recommended these clips and it was a clip I'd never seen before where it's your dad sitting playing acoustic and he's doing way more blues. Yeah. And your mom's sitting there. Speaker 1 (0:57) Yeah, at Jack Clement's studio when they did that. Speaker 3 (0:59) It's kind of, I don't know what the context is. But he kind of is playing the song and your mom's kind of almost talking, commenting. Speaker 1 (1:06) Yeah. You Speaker 3 (1:07) know what I mean? And I enjoyed it because it's your dad, but also it's like, it was cool to see the interaction of your parents. Speaker 1 (1:14) Yeah. And he says that I was trifling when I met her and I'm trifling again. And, you know, he says poetic license or something. Yeah, she Speaker 3 (1:19) goes, you're going to need a lot of poetic license. Yeah. Speaker 1 (1:23) Yeah. That was the great Jack Clement who produced the album that that was on, Dreaming My Dreams. Like he... had a film studio also, and he was really into filming stuff. And I think there were a couple specials and things he made that never came out till later, but he definitely made like a whole special on himself that I think you can find, Jack Clement on the internet. But that's what that's from. And yeah, they had a cool relationship like that. Like he knew he'd write something that she'd get mad about and that she'd kind of laugh at him, which would be worse than being mad. Speaker 3 (1:57) Yeah, there's a... because I do want to talk about both your parents, but there's this bit in the book where your dad's talking about his excesses in life, particularly as it pertains to drugs. Right. And he basically says, I don't know how she did it, but my wife, meaning your mother, Jessie, she just didn't judge me. Speaker 1 (2:17) Yeah. Speaker 3 (2:18) He's almost like talking like it blew his mind. Speaker 1 (2:20) Yeah. That Speaker 3 (2:21) he could have a woman that just didn't judge him. Speaker 1 (2:23) Yeah. It wasn't, you know, I mean, I've read the book. I have my experiences with my mom and dad and the stories in my mom's book and stuff. But they really had, I think that's how they made it. Because she always said, if we had waited 10 years to get married, it would have been a little smoother in the beginning. Because I think he just wasn't ready to settle down. And she was kind of willing to kind of not, you know, this is the thing that when people die, people like to like. talk for them on the internet. And I remember someone made some post about Waylon, I think it might have been Charlie, and somebody's comment was about like, well, he didn't treat Jesse that good. And it's like, man, you weren't there. You have no idea what you're talking about. And in their relationship, it wasn't like she let him walk all over. She just understood. She understood the type of guy he was, understood that if she tried to build the walls around him, he was going to fly. So I think she understood that she had to kind of let him be himself and figure out. his way in life before she could kind of like make him be behave a certain way yeah and that was a love thing and she had faith and so that was she was religious through a lot of it and i think that really kind of gave her a separate kind of strength in a way Speaker 3 (3:38) there's a there's a through line that i get from listening to your father sing particularly when he sings about women and obviously you know you're a singer i'm a singer we not everything we're singing is autobiographical right But I always get this sense that he had a deep understanding of love. I don't know how to phrase it other than that. Speaker 1 (3:59) Yeah. Like Speaker 3 (4:00) when he sings about love, I believe him. Speaker 1 (4:03) Yeah. You know, it's Charlie Crockett and I talk about this a lot because the kind of concept of what a cowboy singer is, is kind of different that because, you know, you have these guys that didn't really they weren't cowboys, but they dress like that because they're their heroes were the TV cowboys, you know, and the book cowboys, you know, and the stories of the old time. So there was something about. The masculinity and sensitivity of a cowboy. If you read like Louis L'Amour books or like Larry McMurtry books and they paint these portraits of these kind of men that are living out and living by themselves on their own, you know, kind of outside of society and slower than society a little bit. And I think that there was a romance to that and there was a... In country music, there was just so much in the songs at the time. And, you know, there was nothing cooler than hearing Willie or Waylon or Merle sing this like beautiful, like tender, vulnerable love song. It was like the most manly thing in the world in a weird way. Yeah, Speaker 3 (5:07) that's kind of what I'm after. Yeah. Speaker 1 (5:09) Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a big part of what is missing in a lot of country now. And, you know, is that kind of like tender, masculine. juxtaposition, you know? Yeah. Speaker 3 (5:20) Well, it's also particular to that generation because, um, you know, the, the baby boomer generation, or I guess the post war, your dad was born what year? Speaker 1 (5:30) 37. Okay. Speaker 3 (5:31) So he, at least he grew up in that, in that he wasn't a baby boomer baby, but he grew up in that. Speaker 1 (5:36) Yeah. Speaker 3 (5:37) At least what I saw in you're a decade younger than me plus, um, those guys that came out of that era, they were really shut down. Speaker 1 (5:47) Yeah. Speaker 3 (5:47) There was a lot of alcohol going on because they just, whether it was the war or whatever had gone on with the Great Depression or whatever, there was just a lot of shut down men. Speaker 1 (5:57) Yeah. I Speaker 3 (5:57) remember being in a lot of rooms where it was like, like you had no idea what was going on in there. Right. And now that I'm an adult and I have kids, I think like, wow, they must have been going through a lot of, but they didn't show any of it. Speaker 1 (6:09) Yeah. It Speaker 3 (6:10) was this stoic. You're right. Speaker 1 (6:12) That's like, it was really a way of being. Yes. Speaker 3 (6:16) And you were expected to suck it up or be tough or whatever. Speaker 1 (6:20) So Speaker 3 (6:20) the idea of a man's man sort of open in his heart, there's a sort of poignancy there, but it's also... Speaker 3 (6:28) maybe we don't have it anymore because everybody just talks about their feelings all the time. Speaker 1 (6:32) But Speaker 3 (6:33) back then, talking about your feelings was sort of poo-pooed. Yeah. Speaker 1 (6:37) That's such an interesting point. You know, because, you know, my dad and I, like, had a great relationship. But my mom talks about me as a father all the time and says, like, you know, your dad, because I was just very hands-on. You know, I'm kind of a big kid that never grew up, so I kind of just played with my kids, like, for, you know, their whole... childhoods. And she was just always like, you know, he could never do that. Cause it was just, he didn't come from that. He didn't come from like, but he, he did engage a lot with me. So I didn't always quite feel that way, but he, of course, maybe he wasn't crawling around on the ground playing GI Joe every day with me, but, but at the same time, you know, that he just. They came, like you said, they came from a different time and their parents were like these incredibly strong people that like worked all the time. You know, like my dad was like sharecroppers, like, and they would just live in the house they were given that had dirt on the floor and six of them in there. And, you know. Speaker 3 (7:29) Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you and I in private have talked about it. I think this is why we have sort of at least a certain understanding with each other because both musician fathers. Yeah. Both had their wild. kind of crazy times. Both came from that other world, whatever that world was. It's long gone now. Speaker 1 (7:47) And Speaker 3 (7:47) this idea of sort of trying to find some emotional connection when we're sensitive people and trying to figure that through line back through our parents. Yeah, Speaker 1 (7:57) it is interesting. It is interesting because, you know, we grew up in a world that was much more open than theirs was. And also we grew up in a world in which we had television. You know, and we had these communication systems that were in our houses that changed the way people saw the world. Well, Speaker 3 (8:16) it might even surprise you because, again, you're a bit younger. But like when I first started talking about what I was talking about in my music in the early 90s, I was attacked for being overly sensitive. Speaker 1 (8:25) Wow. Really? Yeah. Like in what way? Speaker 3 (8:29) Why are you talking about things like child abuse or why are you talking about things like violence in the home or why are you talking about? Speaker 1 (8:36) Wow. Is that such a strength to your music? Yes, Speaker 3 (8:40) but it was at the time it was perceived as sort of almost exploitative or overly raw, especially coming from a male. Speaker 1 (8:46) Right. That's kind of, that's wild. That's wild. In Speaker 3 (8:49) fact, to this day, sorry, but to this day, the most vehement attacks I get in, let's call it digital life, are usually from emasculated men who have a problem with me being an emotional male. Wow. Speaker 1 (9:03) Wow, that says a lot. But they Speaker 3 (9:04) also never seem to leave. Right. They're sort of obsessed with the idea of a man who's an alpha male in life, you know what I mean? Yeah. But can talk about things that are uncomfortable. And that seems to ignite some sort of inner, I call it beta male. It's like a beta male struggle. Speaker 1 (9:24) I mean, that makes sense. I mean, honestly. Speaker 1 (9:30) I mean, that's funny that you still get any kind of pushback. Oh, still, yeah. Less so, Speaker 3 (9:36) but still, yeah. Yeah. Sorry, I got off on a digression. No, Speaker 1 (9:40) it's interesting to me because culturally, you know, the masculine role has been a kind of a weird spot for a while. So I think a lot of people don't know. Speaker 3 (9:49) When you raise kids for 30, 40 years and tell them that just the act of masculinity is in and of itself toxic. Speaker 1 (9:57) Right. Speaker 3 (9:58) You're inviting, like, let's say, let's say that's even true, which I don't necessarily agree with. Let's say it's true. And we all have known our toxic males. And I'm sure I don't want to speak for you. I've certainly engaged Speaker 2 (10:07) in my own version of toxicity. Oh, yeah. Sure. Speaker 3 (10:10) But the point is, is even if that's true, that's half the population of the world. Speaker 1 (10:14) Right. Like, Speaker 3 (10:15) what are you supposed to do with that? In essence, if you believe that masculinity is in and of itself toxic, well, I think you need to give it, let's... The withdrawal of masculine power in the arts, for example, it should be replaced by something. Speaker 1 (10:30) Right. Speaker 3 (10:31) Weakness is not replacement. Right. You know, by saying you need to be lesser than in order to like do something else. I think that's sort of counterintuitive. Speaker 1 (10:39) Of course. And as Speaker 3 (10:40) parents, right, you want to give your kids healthy advice. You know, life examples. You're happily married. So you're showing your kids this is love. This is we're in this holy covenant. You know what I mean? Speaker 1 (10:51) Yeah, man, it's so true. I mean, I think it's so important for, you know, kids now to have that kind of example in their life because there's so much on the internet. It's like, that's the thing that's so crazy about it. I mean, that's a whole other conversation, but like the exposure to so much at such an early age, and even myself, like when I walk. Like I find myself trying to solve like five or six different things that I need to do on my phone, like while I'm like walking my dog while I'm doing something and then I'm like not paying attention or I'm not. I'm like, did he pee? Like, I'm not. Do you know what I mean? That's I mean, it's a trivial thing, but it's like like I find me thinking about. all of the things that I've been absorbing on the internet or on the phone or through culture or that people are talking about over the last day or two. And it gets me into a frantic spot. And I am, and I thought this morning about that and I go like, man, I can't imagine from birth getting this much information. At least you remember Speaker 3 (11:50) what it used to be like. Yeah. For our kids, they only know the one gear. We Speaker 1 (11:54) the last, we're like almost the last. Yeah, we're the last. That's so crazy. Speaker 3 (11:58) Remind me again, because I, I remember having a conversation with you about, I guess, four or five months ago, but it's this idea of the, there were these tapes. Where were, where, where were these tapes that, that you now, you've brought out the two albums of your, of your father's unreleased music, but like, and there's still a third album to come, but like, where were the tapes like physically? Were they in our, Speaker 1 (12:16) in our house that I grew up in, in Nashville, there was a locked room, a room that was always locked that had like his guitars and it from the road. And it had just, Lots of stuff. And kids weren't supposed to be messed around there. So anytime that I'd go in there, you know, there was a whole wall that had been, had like cubby holes built that had reels of tape in them, you know, just like tons of them and rows and rows of them. And, you know, I think he was, there was a point in time where he wasn't allowed to book his own sessions with the people he wanted, let alone take the tape home all the way until like he. 1975. Wow. That late. Yeah, I was right. And once he won this like battle, he cut the 1974, he cut, uh, the album this time. And it was basically the label giving him enough rope to hang himself with. And it ended up being his like first number one hit and a big record. And, and, and he had cut that independently and him doing that caused all these contracts to go void because. Nobody was supposed to be working, not with the producers and engineers that RCA had in the studios. And they kind of thought he was going to fall on his face so it wouldn't cause any problems. And it became big and then everybody wanted that freedom and they got it and all this. But, you know, it was once he got that, once he won that battle, he started recording. He rented studios year round and started recording and the tapes came home, you know, and he would decide what went on record at the last. moment and when he was putting it together and he'd he'd make a transfer tape and give that to the to the label but keep whatever he didn't use at Speaker 2 (13:59) home Speaker 1 (14:00) so when 2008 he died in 2002 in 2008 um some folks from his band richie albright who was his drummer and and uh a few other guys who had their own stashes of tapes too from the years they kind of pooled it all together and digitized it with iron mountain so i've had it i've had it on drives at first it was 10 firewire drives like this big and and now we got it down to like a raid array and so i had that on my shelf but i just didn't really have the equipment or time to go through yeah Speaker 3 (14:32) you know was it hard for you even with your father passing it's like is it hard to get into just even emotionally uh Speaker 1 (14:39) No, I was excited. You know, I had opened it once just briefly to glance in there and saw that none of it was labeled. So it was just like, so I was like, oh, no, this is going to be a big undertaking. But immediately when I opened it up, I found something pretty cool. Speaker 3 (14:54) And Speaker 1 (14:54) so I knew it was there. It was just kind of like, what do I do? I'd like to just kind of get a bird's eye view of what I have. And it turned out. I had a month, I moved into the studio at sunset and I had a month free. And during that month, uh, I was like, let's do it. Like somebody canceled a whole month's record. And, and instead of worrying, I just said, well, we're going to use it to do this. And we dived in, it took a whole, took a whole month. And with Nate Haisley, who was an assistant with me and we, we both were going through it and just figuring out what it was. And then once we had a list of it, I went through it a couple more times. re-familiarize myself with what it was yeah Speaker 3 (15:29) so songbird was the first one that came on bird Speaker 1 (15:31) songbird was the first one that came out last year and diamonds comes out in november uh in the Speaker 3 (15:36) 2026 as Speaker 1 (15:37) we talk yeah as we talk yeah Speaker 3 (15:39) yeah so just the singles out which is the song the Speaker 1 (15:41) silent song diamonds as glenn campbell on guitar yeah Speaker 3 (15:44) yeah yeah it's so interesting because Speaker 3 (15:49) Your dad's such a supreme artist. It's like getting another Picasso or something. You know what I mean? Speaker 1 (15:55) Yeah. Especially because it's that period where he was on top of the world. It was wild. The song Songbird and the cover of Leon Russell's She Smiles Like a River were the first two things that I found when I opened it up. like, whoa, like, and they were like done, you know, they had all the backgrounds on them and everything. And I was just like, Speaker 3 (16:15) what would you peg the years on? Because there's like somewhere in there, like he gets this thing where it's like, everything sounds finished when, as soon as he opens his mouth. Speaker 1 (16:25) Yeah. Yeah. I guess that Speaker 3 (16:27) thing where it's like, he's so on point. Yeah. Speaker 1 (16:30) And Speaker 3 (16:30) the Speaker 1 (16:30) band too. You watch Speaker 3 (16:31) live recordings. He's just on a roll, like whatever that is. He's on that like crazy roll. Speaker 1 (16:39) It is, you know, that's this period and it's wild because it's really 74. Like this time sounds a little different because they cut that at Tomball Glazers and Willie co-produced it. But once you get past that and you get into 1975, which is like, I've always been crazy and it goes all the way. Like these tapes, these tapes go further than this, but the bulk of them are like 74. to like 82. That's kind of the period where he was constantly running a studio, constantly recording. And then maybe it goes a little further. And then Richie and him split up for a while. Richie took a break. And when that happened, it starts being a little more scattered and disparate in there. But that period where they were really all the band guys, Ralph Mooney, Richie, they were just... on fire and they could really cut any song and it just sounded great. And it was what they were doing. Yeah. So Speaker 3 (17:39) it's, it doesn't feel listening. It doesn't feel like, uh, you know, scraping some bottom of some barrel. Right. Yeah. It's like, like, it's like, like, like treasure or something. Speaker 1 (17:49) Yeah. It was, it was like that going home every day. Uh, I would just bring him to my wife, Misty. I'd be like, man, today I found this and you'll never believe it. I found this crazy song with like Glen Campbell on it. And like, it just, it felt like, I was in a musical Da Vinci Code or something. There was a lot of mysteries. I wouldn't be able to find. I had documentation. I had some documentation, but it was hard to figure things out. In fact, one thing I didn't figure out until I put out a billboard with the lyrics to this song. I did not know Johnny Rodriguez wrote it. I thought it had to be an original or something. And then when we put up a billboard in Littlefield with the first line of it, some press article goes, it was the first line of Johnny Rodriguez is a cowboy. And I was like, it's not on the internet. Like I had to find it. There's one on YouTube from like a weird vinyl transfer or something, but I didn't, couldn't find it at first. Oh, Speaker 3 (18:47) wow. This might be a bridge too far, but you take it how you want. Speaker 3 (18:56) My father passed away maybe like, I guess about four years ago now, something like that. And there's not a lot of ways I could honor my father. You know, I mean, there's obviously the memory of things and I could say things, but it's like, there's nothing I could physically do. So this seems to me the act of doing this is a really beautiful way of you honoring your dad. Speaker 1 (19:15) I appreciate you saying that. I mean, it definitely is that. Like, I definitely am so proud of his legacy and just the guy he was. And, you know, the older I get. And the more people I've met and I see their family dynamics, I can really appreciate, you know, how open he was. So there's definitely, the big part of it is me wanting to honor him. And knowing that, like, he kind of had a rough ride on the way out. Like, you know, he didn't live long enough. to have like what kind of cash had in a way and all that. He Speaker 3 (19:47) certainly deserved it. Speaker 1 (19:48) Right. I mean, I felt, you know, they were all kind of lost in that period. Like he was, you know, going to indie record label to indie record label and stuff. And, uh, same with Willie and cash for a minute, like in the eighties, you know, and all that. So, um, you know, he always kind of wanted like. one last ride or something who Speaker 3 (20:07) doesn't yeah yeah right Speaker 1 (20:08) that's what they all that's what they all sure but but going in there and seeing it you know my intention when i did it i didn't think i was gonna be able to have all this material i just thought my idea was maybe i'd find one or two new songs and i'd find some like alternate versions or alternate takes that i could throw together and make just a cool like make it feel like you're in the studio kind of vibe you know but then once i I saw how much great stuff there was. I was like, oh, this is going to be great. This is going to be really fun. And I knew there'd be some older fans that have been there from the beginning that would be just like, there's three more years. I'm going to stay alive for three more years for this. You know, like they would just feel excited about it. Speaker 3 (20:50) This might be a nerd question, but I thought it'd be interesting to ask you because you've become such an accomplished producer. Thanks, man. And it's hard because he's your dad, but break your dad down as an artist. If we were just talking about your dad, like people who produce records, right? Yeah. Break your dad down as an artist. I'm kind of curious for your take on him as an artist. Speaker 1 (21:13) That's really interesting because, you know, like knowing him personally kind of changes the perception, but you know, he was very much in real life, like a little kid, like when he was excited about a song, like he didn't, he didn't walk around and like sit, sit me down and play me songs of his or anything like that. Like he was, he was really into listening to other people's music. I think he, you know, he was. If he found a song he liked, he would listen to it over and over and over and over again. And, you know, one of those was My Name is Mud by Primus. Like, he loved it. Yeah, and another one was Smuggler's Blues by Glenn Frey. You know, he just played over and over and over, just couldn't get enough of it, you know. So he had a kind of reaction to music, like, I think that was from his childhood. he retained the whole way through right where something just every excited him like uh you know i remember when he he loved dire straits when on every street came out when the album came out he was very excited and he wanted me to hear the record he wouldn't play it when there was a song called the bug he loved on there and then like he would uh you know so so his vision of music was that of like a conceptualist i think you know that's interesting someone who like gets an idea and then right then wants to create it as opposed to someone who just like sits and writes a song every day or like maybe meticulously plots out that it he would get an idea he described in his book like you know a lot of people do like you're kind of tuning into a different radio station and some days it's there some days it's not but when you get an idea they like you can you can bring it to fruition. And, you know, a good example of this is, is there was a book, a short story called the old timer. And I wish I knew the guy who wrote it. Um, but I don't, but, uh, my dad loved this little book. It was only about that thick and he loved it so much that he bought it for everybody for Christmas. He did the same thing with one Christmas for the, with the, um, the Jesco, the dancing outlaw, you know, that guy, the wonderful whites of West Virginia. You've never seen that. Oh my Lord, dude, this is a, Pandora's box to open for you. Guy who thinks he's Elvis and he dances. Anyway, that's a whole other thing that will blow your mind. But anyway, so, you know, there was a videotape of Jesco that he sent to everybody for Christmas. And this little book, he just loved this story about an old man who was in love with this younger woman, but he watched her. live her life and just kind of watched her from far, form and her land and all this, but never got to be with her, but was just always in love with her. And so he ended up turning around and writing that into the song. And on one of these albums, the way he did it was so interesting. He made it go from like a waltz to like a straight time thing back and forth. And, and, and, you know, it was, he was so interested in figuring out a way to tell that story lyrically and, you know, but, and musically, but it all came at the same time to him. It was ideas and it was music. The Buddy Holly thing excited him. You know, the energy of music excited him. He wasn't just a songwriter. It Speaker 3 (24:22) was Speaker 1 (24:22) all of it, you know? Speaker 3 (24:24) Yeah. Speaker 1 (24:25) But it's hard to break him down, though. I don't know if I can properly do that, but I think... With Speaker 3 (24:30) him, I always start with the voice. Speaker 1 (24:32) Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, his... Speaker 3 (24:33) I told you when we got to know each other a little bit that I was pretty late to hear you, Dad. I kept hearing about... Because my father didn't like country music because he associated it with the world that he grew up in. Speaker 2 (24:45) Right. Hick, kick, redneck music. Right, yeah. Speaker 3 (24:47) So I just had a natural allergy to country music thinking like, well, if my dad doesn't like it, there's a good reason. Right. So I came very late to country music. And then, of course, you know, once you start getting into it, everyone's like, oh, you got to listen to this. You got to listen to that. And your dad was always one of those names that you'd always hear. Speaker 1 (25:01) Right. Speaker 3 (25:02) And because I didn't grow up with country music, I just didn't get it. Yeah. Speaker 1 (25:05) You Speaker 3 (25:05) know, like to, you know, a guy listening to Sabbath or something, it's like, you know. Speaker 1 (25:10) I felt the same way, man. I mean, I grew up on MTV. I loved his music. I was familiar with that. But the other music that I heard in the world of country music was totally different than that. Yeah, Speaker 3 (25:20) so, but to, and I'm certainly no historian, but like, once you understand like the Farron Youngs and the Carl Smiths and, you know, like the people that your dad was influenced by. including obviously rock and roll from the one side and all that. Once you start to understand his place in it, and then you see how cool he is even in this genre that doesn't necessarily have a lot of cool associated with it. Right, right. Speaker 1 (25:46) Yeah, that's so true. I was just talking about that yesterday because it's like there really wasn't a cool factor. I mean, because Hank Williams was not cool. He was interesting. Oh, he was straight up hick. to Speaker 3 (25:58)