707: Andy Stanley & Sam Kaufman - Problems to Solve, Tensions to Manage, The 3 Questions Behind Every Great Decision, and The 7 Essentials of Enduring Leadership (What Great Leaders Do)

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk

Host Ryan Hawk sits down with Andy Stanley and Sam Kaufman to discuss enduring leadership principles from Stanley's new book, 'What Great Leaders Do'.

Key takeaways

• Sam Kaufman implemented Stanley's distinction between 'problems to solve' and 'tensions to manage' at Insight Global, helping clarify organizational focus.
• In times of high uncertainty, leaders should prioritize providing clarity over promising certainty, as seen during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Main topics

• Managing organizational tension
• Decision-making frameworks

Notable quotes

Leadership really is the most wonderful, dangerous gift.

Conclusion

This episode offers profound frameworks for leaders to navigate both p

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) You should join a group where your desired behavior is the normal behavior. That's what James Clear said to me a few years ago at our Learning Leader Growth Summit. Our Learning Leader Growth Summit is the three-day leadership retreat we have for members of our Learning Leader Circle. And applications are now open to be part of our next Learning Leader Circle. If you want to be surrounded by a group of eights and nines and tens who are striving to be better, this group might be for you. If you want to be surrounded by a group of get after it doers, people who are achieving big things, making a positive dent in the world, then the Learning Leader Circle might be for you. If that's you, go to learningleadercircle.com to apply. That's learningleadercircle.com. Speaker 1 (0:59) Welcome to the Learning Leader Show presented by Insight Global. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Go to learningleader.com for show notes of this and all podcast episodes. Go to learningleader.com. Now, on to tonight's featured leader, the great Andy Stanley is the founder of North Point Ministries, which he launched in Atlanta in 1995. and has grown into eight churches across Metro Atlanta and a global network of more than 225 churches serving over 200,000 people a week. He's the author of more than 20 books. His latest is called What Great Leaders Do, Seven Essentials for Enduring Impact. And I had a special guest host, my friend, Sam Kaufman, Chief Revenue Officer at Insight Global. Join me on this one because Sam, lives in Atlanta and has benefited from seeing Andy's work in person at his church over the years. During our conversation, we discussed the one question John Maxwell asked over lunch that determined how big Andy built this next church. Then the difference between a problem you solve and a tension you manage and how that one distinction spread through all of Insight Global after Sam heard Andy. teach it, and then he went to work to implement it. Next, leading through uncertainty. What Andy did when COVID forced him to rebuild the entire business model in real time and why clarity and not certainty is what people actually need from a leader. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy our conversation with Andy Stanley. Speaker 1 (2:50) I loved reading about Mother Mary and actually the story of the power of a leader believing in somebody else. Yeah. Because now you're in the position to believe in somebody, but she's one of the first that believed in you when you were kind of a punk. Can you tell the story of Mother Mary? Speaker 2 (3:07) Yeah. So Louie Giglio and I grew up together in my dad's church, and we were kind of the troublemakers in our little youth group. One morning after we had disrupted Everything. Everybody had left and she brought us back in and she sat us down. I still remember the room and she said, Andy, you and Louie are leaders and you need to lead. These kids will do what you, you know, she went on and on about our influence. I mean, I think I was in the eighth or ninth grade, just remembering the season. And I remember thinking, well, then I don't want to be a leader. If a leader means you have to behave and do what the adults say. But. I still remember that conversation. I mean, nobody ever associated leader with me for many, many, many years after that. But she saw something in us. And of course, Louie has done extraordinary things in the world as a leader. And I've had the opportunity to do extraordinary things. And she's 101. She's about to turn 101. So on her 100th birthday, we went, Louie and I went over there and had our picture made with her and posted about her. And she saw what we did not see. And I mean, for years after that. She gave us opportunity after opportunity that we did not deserve, that we did not handle well. And she just never gave up. And Mary never had children of her own. And to this day, she calls us her sons. So talk about vision cast, you know, and to your point, Ryan, because of that, when I see people who I think have that kind of potential or a leadership gear, maybe we'll talk about that. I just try to just. speak life into that and fan that flame because she did that for both of us and we did we did not deserve it oh my gosh yeah what do you think she saw well what she saw is as we did everybody else in the youth group did if we did good they followed along if we were disrupting we kind of set the temperature in the room it was and again it was this we're talking about 40 or 50 middle school high school kids this wasn't hundreds of people but she knew if she could get us online with what she was trying to do, her work was done. And if we weren't, it wasn't. And she should have kicked us out. I mean, the easy thing is, you know what? I have all these kids that I'm responsible for. You guys are out. And she never gave up. And I do not know why. So Speaker 1 (5:24) now that you're in the position that she was in, there's so much weight in your words. You have so much power. And I think it's really cool when you can use your power for good. How do you try to use all the power you've acquired to pour into people, to help them, to lift them up? Well, part of it Speaker 2 (5:44) is my job. And, you know, anybody who has employees in our organization has grown through the years. So you have built-in influence because, you know, you're signing their paychecks or you sign the paycheck of the person that signs. You know, you just have automatic influence. And, of course, because of how I was raised, influence is a stewardship. And one of the things I talk about in the book is that leadership really is the most wonderful, dangerous gift. I mean, everything that's happened great in the world, there was a point leader. Everything that's happened horrible in the world was a point leader that was a man. So, you know, we can say that. So you think about the big history, the things that are just embarrassing for a nation or embarrassing for the human race. There was somebody leading that. And the reason people followed them is not because what they were doing was good. They followed them because they were a leader and they brought clarity to some kind of dilemma. They made a promise whether they could keep it or not. And people believed and they leaned in. And so leadership, it's the most wonderful. It is the most dangerous gift. And those of us with a leadership gear are responsible, I think, for stewarding it well. And to your question, recognizing the people around us who kind of have that gear. And when you invest in a leader, it's a multiplier because leaders are going to lead. I just think they can't help it. They look behind them and people are following along. So again, it's Speaker 1 (7:06) a Speaker 2 (7:06) wonderful, dangerous thing. How Speaker 1 (7:08) much of that is born versus developed over Speaker 2 (7:12) the course of your life? It's all born. That's not the popular answer. But here's why I say that. In the situation with Mary Gillerstadt and me and Louie is a good example. We weren't trying to lead anybody. We were just being ourselves. And because there were two of us who kind of had this leadership thing, things just happened. And so she noticed it. The other reason I say that is you've interviewed a lot of leaders. So you may say there's an exception to this. I've never met a leader who's accomplished anything extraordinary who said. You know, I wasn't a leader. And then I went to a conference and I became a leader. I wasn't a leader. And then I read two leadership books and then suddenly I knew how to lead. Never. In fact, the people who do the great things, they just start doing the thing and people follow along. So I do think people are born, you know, there's all kinds of explanations. But at the end of the day, I think you kind of have it or you don't. Speaker 3 (8:09) Now, anybody Speaker 2 (8:10) can become a better leader, but I can become a better singer. You're still never going to give me a microphone, right? So everybody can become a better leader, but we recognize pretty quickly the Speaker 1 (8:22) men and women who just, there's just a thing. I think you may be the only person who has ever answered that question that way. I appreciate that. Well, that means I'm probably wrong, but I'm sticking with it. Yeah. No, I love it. I want to talk about something and I want Sam to cover this because this is something he has lived within his company and the language has become very sticky at Insight Global and that's problems and tension or the difference. So problems are something you solve and tension is something that you manage. Sam, can you, can you bring this to life, how you guys actually implemented this? Speaker 3 (8:58) Yeah. So Andy, our CEO has a meeting every Thursday. We have, it's like his big team meeting. And it was probably like a year or a year and a half ago. That was in a podcast that you did where you were talking about problems to solve, tensions to manage. And one of my like managing directors in the business had forwarded it to me. And she's like, I think this is really interesting. Check this out. And I had listened to it that morning on my way into work. We were literally talking about something. And for years, we've been talking about the same thing. And we always were like, is that something we could solve? And we didn't have the language. We just did not have the language. And another topic came up in his meeting where I was like, oh, wow, it's happening right now. And so for like 40 leaders in the room, I said, hey, guys, I just listened to this podcast this morning. It's all around problems to solve versus tensions to manage. I want to give you the example they gave and put some language around it. Andy, within a week, I mean, truly within a week, it's like a 40,000 person company. This was in our business. Like it spread like wildfire. And that's how you just know how much that language was needed in the world and the gift that like you gave us, because there were so many things we were just trying to solve that were not problems to solve. And they keep showing Speaker 2 (10:11) up on the agenda and it's like, didn't we just talk about this? Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 3 (10:15) And you just couldn't clear it. Yeah, Speaker 2 (10:16) you tried to solve attention. When you solve attention, you create a problem. In our organization, I mean, not every week, but once a month, there's a discussion and somebody says, okay, wait, is this a problem to solve or attention we just need to live with and manage? And again, to your point, when that gets clarified on the front end, the discussion goes in a much more healthy direction. And we have patience with each other because we realize oftentimes we're on two different sides of a tension. We're not enemies. Nobody's right. Nobody's wrong. It's like work-life balance, right? You don't solve that. You manage that. And so once you recognize them in every industry, there are industry-specific tensions to manage. There are company-specific tensions to manage. Just kind of getting them front and center saves so much time. Yeah. You Speaker 3 (11:05) nailed that one. I mean, that literally changed our business for the better. So when I saw it in the book, I was very excited about it just because it was just such a good revelation for our company. So thank you. Well, Speaker 2 (11:15) one of the things that I, and this, I appreciate you saying that so much because I wrote this book, I wanted it to be practical, applicable leadership, not cool sayings and general principles, but the do stuff because, you know, great leaders. are known for what they do, not what they think or even what they believe. And so those simple ideas, once they're applied, you know, they just work. And of course, none of them are original with me for sure. So in Speaker 1 (11:45) chapter called clarify the win, there's a conversation or some writing about certainty and clarity or certainty versus clarity. And I think that's one of the biggest things that. leaders in general are going to deal with, especially over time, is just a lot of uncertainty. Well, that's Speaker 2 (12:03) why there's the need for leadership. If there was no uncertainty, nobody needs a leader. Everything's figured out already, Speaker 1 (12:09) right? Yeah. So let's go back to 2020. COVID, there's no playbook, right? What was the real life stuff happening for you? when the world's shutting down and part of what you do is getting people together in person. And it looks like, uh-oh, this could be a problem. What was going on Speaker 2 (12:27) at that time for you? Yeah, our whole business model, so to speak, is no longer even possible. It's against the law in certain parts of the country to do our business, which is put people in rows in, you know, recirculated air for an hour and 15 minutes and then have their kids in their own rooms with, you know, the whole thing. So... Again, these are principles and ideas and practices I've lived with for so long. So I knew, of course, during 2020, everybody in the world wanted certainty. Nobody in the world could promise it. Now, politicians, to pick on them for a moment, they always promise certainty. That's how you get elected. And then when what was certain doesn't happen, it was somebody else's fault and they run out and get in front of another parade. And I love our political system. vote and all that. But unfortunately, you've got to promise certainty. But smart people and honest leaders know you cannot, the only way to promise certainty is to know the future in detail. So the next best thing to certainty is clarity. And in times of uncertainty, the need for clarity is so heightened. This is the opportunity for leaders to step in and to bring clarity to a time of uncertainty. And for us, I knew that basically we couldn't do much of anything we had been doing. So my responsibility, I felt like, practically speaking, was to give people something to do. So I got all of our staff together. I said, okay, we are redeploying. We're not going to try to do what we've been doing and just kind of do it half-baked. We're just going to hit pause on all of that. We're going to redeploy. We're going to come up with a plan, and we're going to be busy. But we're essentially going to redeploy and do something different. And as I would have expected, and as generally happens, when you give people something to do in the midst of uncertainty, it feels like clarity because I know what to do. I know when I've done it. And the organization keeps moving. It keeps moving forward. And sometimes. I love Jim Collins' idea of how you navigate a fog. The way you navigate a fog is you just keep putting one step in front of the other, feel your way along. And so during times of uncertainty, give people something to do. That's a measure of clarity and forward you go. So we, and lots of organizations experience this, not just us for sure. We learned so many new good habits that stayed with us to this day. But those are