#2561 - LL Cool J

The Joe Rogan Experience

LL Cool J joins Joe Rogan to reflect on his groundbreaking career as hip-hop's first major solo star, tracing his journey from a teenager signing with Def Jam to navigating fame without losing his

Key takeaways

• LL Cool J was signed to Def Jam at age 16 by Rick Rubin and Russell Simmons after submitting a demo tape that Ad-Rock played for them.
• He emphasizes that charisma cannot substitute for skill in disciplines like jiu-jitsu, where he recently started training under Brian Glick.

Main topics

• Early hip-hop history and Def Jam's founding
• Martial arts philosophy and jiu-jitsu training

Notable quotes

"I'm a celebrity by consequence, like as a result of what I did. I'm not a guy who's celebrity-minded. I'm an artist."

Conclusion

The episode offers a grounded reflection on maintaining artistic integrity and personal humility amid

Transcript preview

Speaker 4 (0:01) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. Speaker 1 (0:03) The Joe Rogan Experience. Speaker 4 (0:05) Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. Speaker 4 (0:15) I promise you. I believe Speaker 3 (0:17) you. We're up. I got sneaker recommendations from LL Cool J. I'll take that. I was wearing these Pumas. You said I'm going to incinerate them? You'll throw them in the Speaker 4 (0:27) incinerator. Okay. Speaker 3 (0:28) I don't know if that's true, Speaker 4 (0:29) but I like these. You have no reason to believe me yet. I'll give you that. You have no reason to believe me. But when you try them, you're going to say, yo, your man was telling the truth. Okay. You'll see. You're going to come back on and say that. All Speaker 3 (0:43) right. Speaker 4 (0:43) I promise you. I believe you. I'll give it a shot. I'll give it a shot. Well, anyway, very nice Speaker 3 (0:50) to meet you. Nice to meet you, too. I met you a long fucking time ago. Very briefly, yeah. We were at this stupid NBC thing. It was very funny because you were making fun of it. It was some sick, you know, they do those things where they have all the new shows and everybody has to show up. It's like everyone sits down. I was at a table with you. Okay. And I was a nobody. This was like 1994. I was like, oh shit, that's how cool Jay was. I was just getting, it was just still weird for me to be around famous people. And I remember you were like, what Speaker 1 (1:21) the fuck is Speaker 3 (1:22) this? You were making fun of the whole thing. And I was like, God, I wish I could do that. Like this guy's making fun of this shit. Like you Speaker 4 (1:29) didn't give a fuck about it all. It was really funny. I mean, you could never take it too serious. No. You know what I mean? Like, we're not, you know, we're not going to take it too serious. You know, life is Speaker 3 (1:41) good. Especially those kind of things where they sit down, they announce all the shows, and you have to clap. You know, they have all these. Speaker 2 (1:48) You know, you know. I mean, I'm going to have manners, but Speaker 4 (1:51) at the same time, I'm not going to take it too serious. No, but you were making fun of it, and I was enjoying it. I was enjoying it. Speaker 3 (1:58) It's funny. It's funny. This Speaker 2 (2:00) is like, this is the 90s. Speaker 3 (2:02) This is a long, long time ago. Hell yeah. You've had a fucking insane career, man. I mean, when did you get signed? Weren't you like 17 or some shit? Like how old were you when you first got your first contract? Speaker 4 (2:15) So, um, 16. 16? 16. We started Def Jam. Wow. Rick Rubin and Russell Simmons. Well, Rick started Def Jam, right, as a production company. Rick and Russell together. formed Def Jam the label and I was the first act. The first song on Def Jam Productions was It's Yours by Tila Rock. And then from there, the label was formed because that was streetwise party time. And then from there, the label was formed. And, you know, the rest is history. That's incredible. Ad-Rock from the Beastie Boys actually programmed the beat. Rick Rubin produced it. Speaker 4 (2:51) I did the mic, and here we are. Speaker 3 (2:53) Most people who get that successful at 16 have a very difficult time keeping their shit together. But you just managed to keep smiling and floating through this thing. Speaker 4 (3:02) You know what? You know what? Yo, man, you get enough bites at the apple. You know what Speaker 3 (3:09) I mean? Speaker 4 (3:09) 16. Yeah, yeah. That was probably about 17, 18 right there. Wow. I always could tell by my jewelry. Speaker 3 (3:16) You know what I'm saying? Speaker 4 (3:18) You know? Wow. That's back in the boombox days. Yeah, it was the boombox, man. That was everything. That meant everything to me. Oh, everybody had those back then. Absolutely. Speaker 3 (3:27) People would carry them around, walking down the street with their own music. Absolutely. We're in a different world now. People don't Speaker 4 (3:32) understand what it was like back then. Yeah, because actually... Speaker 4 (3:37) In a weird way, even though the world is more public, music has become more private. Right, right, right, right. The world was private, but music was public back then, right? Speaker 3 (3:47) Right, right, yeah. It's Speaker 4 (3:49) like an Speaker 3 (3:49) inverted, you know what I mean? Yeah. Well, you, I mean, it's no exaggeration to say you're a pioneer because hip-hop was so new back then. Yeah, yeah. It was so new. You had, like, Speaker 4 (4:02) Sugarhill, which was in, like, Sugar Hill, Rap is Delight was 79, but I got into hip-hop before that because I was listening to, like, Grandmaster Flash and The Furious 4 before they were the 5, and The Treacherous 3, and Moe, and The Cold Crush. What year was that? That's... Speaker 4 (4:22) 75, 76, 77. Wow. You know, around that time. You know what I mean? And I was hearing the tapes because they were circulating because I was in Queens. You know what I mean? So the tapes were coming out of the Bronx. And when I was in Long Island, see, I was raised, I was born in Long Island. I was raised in Queens, but I also lived in North Babylon. And when I was in North Babylon, next door, there was a lot of foster kids who were from uptown. who were from the Bronx and from Brooklyn, well, Bronx and Harlem and Brooklyn. So I would hear all the tapes when hip-hop was emerging. So I was like, you know, eight years old, and I was getting exposed to like all of the, you know, the newest of the new at a really young age. So I got like indoctrinated. and baptized in the fire of hip-hop early. You know what I mean? What a fortuitous Speaker 3 (5:10) time to be a kid, too. Like, it's the perfect time because it's all emerging around Speaker 4 (5:15) you. Yeah, it's like when Gladwell talks about, you know, that moment, the tipping point, where people being born in certain places. You know, when he talks about being in Seattle when computers were, when Speaker 3 (5:27) software Speaker 4 (5:27) exploded. So I was in New York at that same time. It's very much in that same... Speaker 4 (5:33) Yeah. That same thing. You know, you get sprinkled with a little dust. You know, the man upstairs, you know, get a little Speaker 3 (5:40) sprinkle. Be in the right place. Got the capability. Yeah. You know? And the drive and the discipline. Yeah. Stick to it. Yeah. Speaker 4 (5:48) Yeah. I Speaker 3 (5:49) mean, obviously, you have that. You're still in great shape. You got to be. You know? Yeah. You still keep it together. Speaker 4 (5:53) I do. I do. I've been, you know, I recently started doing jujitsu, which has been a long Speaker 3 (5:59) time. Speaker 4 (5:59) Really? Speaker 1 (6:00) Yeah, yeah. Where are you Speaker 4 (6:00) training? Brian Glick. Where's he at? He's in Brooklyn. Oh, okay. And he trained under Donaher. Oh, great. Oh, phenomenal. Speaker 3 (6:09) That's a Speaker 4 (6:09) great Speaker 3 (6:10) lineage. Yeah. Henzo Speaker 4 (6:11) Gracie, Donaher. Yeah. Yeah, so he's a lot of fun. Actually, my man Scott, Scott Kahn, you know, put me on to him. Oh, Speaker 3 (6:19) okay. Speaker 4 (6:19) Yeah, we've been working. So it's very humbling. You know, you think you're, yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's Glick. That's Glick. That's my teacher. Nice. And so that's a lot of fun. How long have you been doing that now? Not long at all. And you find out that you think you're a tough guy, but you're really a little old lady. You find out really quickly. It's so humbling. Oh, oh, oh. Oh, you're tough. Speaker 3 (6:46) Oh, Speaker 4 (6:47) you're tough. Exactly. You find out real quick. So I've. You know, because, you know, when I was young, I enjoyed martial arts, like a little Sado karate, a little Wing Chun, a little each one. Like, I liked the martial arts. But this one, this is a completely different thing because, you know. Yeah. It's just, you know. You feel helpless. There's no question about it. You are helpless. Yeah, you're helpless. Speaker 3 (7:14) And you don't think you are until you do it, and then your whole Speaker 4 (7:17) world shatters. You're like, oh, no. Yeah, a guy will put you on a closed guard and say, get out. Come on, get out. You're good. And you do everything but stand up, you know, when you first start. It's crazy. Yeah, so it was fun. Speaker 3 (7:30) It's a deep pool, too. There's a lot to learn. It keeps going forever and ever and ever. Yeah. Speaker 4 (7:35) Yeah. But that's life. Yeah. That's what I like about life. Yeah. You know, because, you know, we want to maximize our potential, right? Well, I think it's really good for famous people to do something Speaker 3 (7:45) that doesn't depend at all on your personality or your status or your stature. I think it's good for your head because it's an undeniable thing. Like you are either good at this or you are not good at this. There's no charm. There's no charisma. You know what I'm saying? I'm really charismatic. Let me go. Nobody shows up. They love you the moment they see you. There's none of that. You can't Speaker 4 (8:07) charisma your way out of an Americana or a Kimura. Because that's the Speaker 3 (8:11) opiate for celebrities, like this thing with everybody loves you and needing that. Well, see, here's the Speaker 4 (8:17) thing. Here's the thing. I'm a celebrity by consequence, like as a result of what I did. I'm not a guy who's celebrity-minded. I'm an artist, Joe. You know what I'm saying? I, you know, I'm famous by default because of the things that I do have made me known. But I don't walk in rooms feeling famous. That's a great perspective. I'm Speaker 3 (8:36) an Speaker 4 (8:36) artist. That's a great perspective. I'm not in it for, like, the fame thing. I'm, like, I'm way more blue collar. I'm not, like, remotely interested in hitting you with the famous, with the long cigarette holder and the ascot and shit. Like, I'm, like, so not into that. Like, I'm, like, way different. Like, I'm not even remotely near that. Imagine rocking a cigarette Speaker 3 (8:57) holder. Can you imagine? I could see Cat Williams doing it. Speaker 4 (9:00) I could see Cat Speaker 3 (9:00) Williams with a cigarette holder. Well, it would work for Cat. He could pull it off. He could pull anything off. Speaker 4 (9:05) And he's going to say some genius shit about it on top of that. So, yeah, he could pull it off. Speaker 3 (9:10) But me Speaker 4 (9:11) walking in with the cigarette holder. What if you walked in here today and I had a cigarette holder? Speaker 1 (9:15) And Speaker 4 (9:15) when you said, hey, hey, hello, I went like this. You know, it just hits you with the... What is Speaker 3 (9:22) the purpose of the cigarette holder? Other than keeping the cigarette further from your face? I Speaker 4 (9:27) don't want Speaker 3 (9:27) my hands dirty. I don't want my hands to smell like cigarettes. I don't know what the purpose is. It's Speaker 1 (9:32) just Speaker 3 (9:32) all Speaker 1 (9:33) wrong. Speaker 3 (9:34) I Speaker 4 (9:34) don't know what the purpose is. It's just all wrong. The only Speaker 3 (9:36) person who pulled it off was Hunter S. Thompson. He had it and just somehow or another seemed ridiculous. Can we put a picture up of him? Because I'm not... Hunter S. Thompson, the writer. He's the one that they did that Johnny Depp movie, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. Okay, okay. It's based on one of his books. Okay. It's Hunter S. Thompson. Ah, Speaker 4 (9:50) yeah, yeah, yeah. He Speaker 3 (9:52) used to have a cigarette holder. Yeah, Speaker 4 (9:53) but he's doing it a little bit more aggressively. I'm talking about that other one. Yeah. I'm talking about that other kind of- The long one. The long one, yeah. The black Speaker 3 (10:01) one with the silver ring. Yeah, yeah, you know, you know. Yeah. Yeah, I think he did it more ironically. Speaker 4 (10:06) Man, Speaker 3 (10:06) Hunter's cool. Oh, he was cool as fuck. Yeah, he's cool. A complete total maniac. You know what I mean? out of his mind on drugs, but wrote some of the most genius shit ever. I mean, you know, Speaker 4 (10:16) make it through, man. If you're going through hell, keep going, baby. Make it through and come out the Speaker 3 (10:22) other side. Some people need something to get out of their own head, you know? Yeah, it's called humility. Yeah. Yeah, that helps too. That perspective that you have is a great perspective because that's the way to get through it. And young people should hear that too, is that just be an artist and be famous. as a consequence of what you've done. Exactly. Yeah. Speaker 4 (10:42) Exactly. As opposed to, because. If you're arrogant, you can't learn anything. Speaker 4 (10:48) And the most fulfilling thing of this whole thing is learning some stuff. Yeah. Like that's what's fun. Right, right. What's not fun is just thinking about yourself all day. That's kind of boring, at least to me. Speaker 3 (11:00) Well, it's kind of crazy. It is. Speaker 4 (11:02) It really is. Speaker 3 (11:04) And the best way to not think about yourself all day is try to learn something difficult. Speaker 4 (11:08) 100%. Speaker 3 (11:08) 100%. Yeah. Like when you're doing jiu-jitsu, the last thing you're thinking about is yourself. You're not thinking about anything. Yeah, you're just surviving. You're just thinking Speaker 4 (11:15) about surviving and hoping that he Speaker 3 (11:17) doesn't. Speaker 4 (11:20) You know what I mean? That's the worst thing coming out of your mouth. You know what I mean? It's Speaker 3 (11:24) so humiliating. You know? Yeah. That's cool that you're doing it, though. It's very exciting. Speaker 4 (11:29) Yeah, it's, you know, man, I like that, and I like reading, you Speaker 3 (11:33) know. Love the Speaker 4 (11:34) books, man. What kind of shit do you read? I read everything. Yeah? Yeah, I read everything from Karl von Clausewitz to... Who's that? He's an Austrian general. Prussian general, actually, Prussian. Prussian general who, you know, talked about this concept called friction. And he has this Clausewitzian triangle where he talks about, like, you know, you have these three areas that the pendulum swings over, like probability and chance, logic and reason, and luck. You know, no, probability and chance, logic and reason, and passion and enmity, hatred. So you can look at society right now, and you can... take a Clausewitzian trinity and put it over society and you know that we're operating in a place of emotions and passions. So Speaker 3 (12:22) logic Speaker 4 (12:22) and reasons wouldn't Speaker 3 (12:23) even make any, you know, Speaker 4 (12:25) wouldn't even mean anything. So it's the trinity, you know, so it really helps you think about life, you know. Speaker 3 (12:30) Interesting. So the grand strategy is at the center of it all. Government, politics, reason, intelligent, the armed forces, calculation, chance, game of chance, odds, values. Fascinating. Yeah. How did you get into this guy? I Speaker 4 (12:45) just read all kinds of stuff. I love literature. Love history. Love reading things that... Speaker 4 (12:52) Make me better. You know what I'm saying? And what you find out is the more you read The less you know, the more you know, the more you find out, the more you realize you don't know shit. And because of that, it becomes more exciting. So, and I wanted to navigate entertainment. It's like what you talked about, right? You know, you're 16, 17, 18 years old. Now, either you can get high all day, spend all your money and twist yourself out and go on a binge or. You can figure out something else. You know what I'm saying? How did you know that at 16? My mother would show me books of drug addicts with swords on their arms and say, hey, Todd, this is what happens when you get out in that world. If you can ruin your career and ruin your life, this is what happens. Oh, wow. And that combined with her telling me, Todd, girls don't like dummies. You know what I'm saying? You know what I mean? You know? Not like you trying to be like, you know, Mr. Scientist, like some pedantic super nerd at the same time, though. You want to stay inquisitive, stay curious. You know what I mean? Well, women Speaker 3 (14:02) want a man who can navigate life. There's no question about that. Yeah, and intelligence is one of the best ways, one of the best tools to navigate life. Speaker 4 (14:10) Intelligence, health, and... That that that inner emotional strength you need intestinal fortitude to go with the intelligence right because if you have intelligence, but no willpower You still get banged out right you just be a smart punk You know what I mean that gives up early, but you're smart. Yeah, Speaker 3 (14:30) I know why I'm giving up You know that yeah, I know why I'm giving up, but I'm gonna go to therapy and and never get better Yeah, Speaker 4 (14:37) yeah Speaker 3 (14:38) Yeah. I mean, that's the that's one of the key elements of society today that's not embraced is like discipline, discipline and drive and understanding that you have to have the ability to. persevere through difficult times and that giving up there's no Speaker 2 (14:55) there's no virtue in being emotional and giving Speaker 3 (14:57) up that's the opposite it's bad for you everybody feels bad sometimes in your life but giving up like that and celebrating that and embracing it you know like oh Speaker 2 (15:05) he's in he's in he's in touch with his emotions is Speaker 3 (15:09) that what that is he's in Speaker 4 (15:10) touch with his some shit that's gonna get him get him yeah get him ran over no you got it you know what i mean like yo yo you gotta see there's Speaker 3 (15:18) a Speaker 4 (15:18) there's Empathy is not the same as what you're describing, right? Because empathy, we need empathy. But empathy is not the same as weakness. Exactly. And, you know, one spark can set a prairie on fire. So we got to be, you know, we got to manage our moods and we got to be able to do what we need to do even when we don't feel like doing it, right? Because that's the language of success. Speaker 3 (15:40) Yeah. Right? That's Speaker 4 (15:42) a Speaker 3 (15:42) really important quote. One spark can set a prairie on fire because how many people they spiral out from one bad thought they start pursuing. There you go. Speaker 4 (15:50) Yeah. You got to get out of your own way. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like that's super important, man. Speaker 3 (15:57) That's Speaker 4 (15:57) super important. Speaker 3 (15:58) You know what I mean? Speaker 4 (15:59) It is. You know? Yeah. Speaker 3 (16:02) Real talk. Yeah, I know. No one teaches you that shit in school. Like you have to have wise people around you to show you that way or you have to slowly Speaker 4 (16:09) figure it out on your own. Yeah, you got to go through some drama and you got to be able to see the silver lining and you got to be able to finish the marathon. Speaker 4 (16:24) That requires Speaker 4 (16:27) Your ability to you know get comfortable being uncomfortable. I know it's kind of a cliche, but it's true Yeah, you gotta be comfortable being uncomfortable like you got to be able to keep going and understand that there's a others There's another side like I I heard this guy. I don't know who he was So I'm not trying to take credit for this but this guy said um like if you're on a plane and You know when engines on fire if you're flying a plane you keep flying and he said Or else, what are you going to do? I mean, yeah, you look to land, but you got to keep going. You don't crash the plane. If two engines are on fire, what do you do? You keep flying until you can save the land. So in life, you don't give up just because one of your engines is not acting the way you want it to. You have to treat your life like you, you know, attitude determines your altitude, right? So you got to. Well, everybody Speaker 3 (17:16) wants to be comfortable. That's Speaker 4 (17:17) the thing. Because we're so often uncomfortable Speaker 3 (17:19) that everyone seeks to be comfortable. And then once they're comfortable, they want to hold on to it and only be comfortable. Right. And then they stop making progress. Exactly. They stop evolving. Exactly. And they become defensive. Yes. You know what I mean? They Speaker 4 (17:32) just crawl up and become a Speaker 3 (17:33) hedgehog. They just go into a ball and Speaker 4 (17:35) don't try to do nothing in life. Speaker 3 (17:37) They also get very upset at ambitious people. Speaker 4 (17:39) Well, some can. Some people can. Some people can. Because it's a reminder, right? Yeah. I can understand how painful it might be for somebody who is afraid to go for that next level, afraid to do that next thing, to see somebody else wholeheartedly committing. Speaker 3 (17:57) But what Speaker 4 (17:57) you have to understand is that... Like you have somebody say to you I don't want to go back to school. You'd be like, why? I'm saying if they want to do, oh, because it'll take three years. Well, three years from now is going to be three years from now any goddamn way. So just go back to school. So going back to what you were saying, it's like. Like, the idea of making it, you just got to be comfortable with the idea that people are going to say what they're going to say anyway, and you need to go after your dreams. Dreams don't have deadlines. That's the headline. Dreams don't have deadlines. You just got to go after it. And, you know, you lose the battle, you can still win the war, right? With yourself. Yeah. Right? Yeah. With yourself. Yeah. Because we're not looking for perfection. None of us are perfect. We all did some crazy shit. We're all crazy. Everybody's crazy. But at the same time, you can take it to the next level if you keep going. Speaker 3 (18:53) Yes. The football season is heating up, and every week feels bigger with DraftKings. The DraftKings Sports app is now live in all 50 states. That means from Texas to California to Florida, every fan is in on the excitement. Follow the teams you love, keep up with the biggest games, and experience the excitement of football. all week long. No matter which game you're watching, you're always connected with one app. One app, every sport, all 50 states. New DraftKings customers, sign up with Code Rogan, spend just $5, get $150 in rewards within 14 days, includes all markets. That's Code Rogan in partnership with DraftKings. The crown is Speaker 1 (19:32) yours. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. 1-800-MY-RESET. Connecticut, call 888-789-7777. Visit ccpg.org. On behalf of Boot Hill Casino in Kansas, FedTax Pass-Thru may apply in Illinois, 21 and over, void in Canada. Bet with DraftKings Sportsbook to get bonus bets that expire in seven days or trade with DraftKings Predictions to get predictions dollars that expire in one year. Event contract trading involves risk of loss. Predictions offer void in New York. Non-withdrawable rewards issued as $50 click to claims every seven days for 14 days. Terms at dkng.co slash offer. Limited time offer. Speaker 1 (20:05) Yeah, Speaker 3 (20:06) you know what I mean? It's great advice. Yeah, it's real. And it's real from someone who's actually done it. You know, that's what's really important. People can hear that all day from a motivational speaker, but then you can say to that motivational speaker, what exactly have you done other than motivate people? A lot of them, the list is very small. Speaker 4 (20:23) But Speaker 3 (20:23) you Speaker 4 (20:23) know what's interesting about that? I hear people say that, but you know what my thinking is? Like if a homeless guy tells me don't do push-ups in traffic, I'm going to listen. Speaker 3 (20:31) You know? Oh, yeah. You get bad advice from people that are great. And then you get really good advice from idiots. Every now and then a Speaker 4 (20:40) moron will tell you something and you're like, oh, shit. So I'm less inclined to concern myself with who the messenger is. I know it's relevant. Right. But I listen to the message because you have to contextualize the message Speaker 3 (20:52) in your life. Right. That's some Bruce Lee shit. That's like absorb what is useful. You know Speaker 4 (20:58) what I mean? Speaker 3 (21:00) The way the interceptor fits. Bruce was the Speaker 4 (21:02) man. Speaker 3 (21:02) Oh, he was the man. Bruce is why I got Speaker 4 (21:03) into acting. Speaker 3 (21:04) Really? Absolutely. How'd that happen? Speaker 4 (21:06) Because, I mean, he was the only dude with a tan that was, like, doing some cool shit on TV or in the movies. You know? He was a little brownie. Oh, bro, Speaker 3 (21:15) all my Asian friends were so happy. All my Asian friends were like, finally, we have a fucking superhero. Yo, Speaker 4 (21:20) Bruce was the man. Speaker 3 (21:21) He was the man, dude. He Speaker 4 (21:22) was the man. Speaker 3 (21:23) He Speaker 4 (21:23) changed Speaker 3 (21:23) martial Speaker 4 (21:24) arts for the world. He used to be on Jamaica Avenue with the yellow and black Game of Death suit. Did you have one of those? Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely walking down the aisle with that shit. Proud. That Game of Death suit was the shit. Right? That yellow with the black stripes with the joint. That yellow Speaker 3 (21:42) Game of Death suit. I don't think people understand how revolutionary he was. All martial arts were all siloed. Like if you did Kung Fu and your instructor caught you doing Shotokan somewhere, they'd be upset with you. It was very siloed. And Bruce Lee came along and said, no. Who Speaker 4 (22:05) was the first mixed martial artist? Speaker 3 (22:06) The first. You know what I mean? He's doing Speaker 4 (22:09) American boxing, Chinese boxing, Kung Fu. Salat. Yeah, some karate. Salad is crazy, too. Yeah. He did judo. He did everything. Speaker 3 (22:17) Yeah. Yeah. And Speaker 4 (22:19) he put it all together, Speaker 3 (22:20) and that was heresy. Yeah. Yeah. People wanted to kill him for that. Yeah. Speaker 4 (22:24) Well, yeah. That rumor still persists, right? Yeah. Well, Speaker 3 (22:28) I Speaker 4 (22:28) think. I think that rumor Speaker 3 (22:29) has to do with the triad, with the Chinese mob, because they were financing his early movies. The Raymond Chow movies that he was doing? And then he left. And when he left them, there was a gigantic dispute. So when he went to Hollywood, there was a gigantic dispute. So I think that's what the real conspiracy theories. I don't Speaker 4 (22:50) know if they're true. Speaker 3 (22:50) You think he Speaker 4 (22:50) probably just had an aneurysm or whatever Speaker 3 (22:52) that was. It Speaker 4 (22:52) seems Speaker 3 (22:52) like something happened where he had an allergic reaction. Wasn't it an allergic reaction to medication or something like that? Yeah, because Speaker 4 (22:58) they gave him some pills and he went to sleep. He was at someone's Speaker 3 (23:00) apartment, right? Well, I think it's also he probably had some head injuries. You've got to realize he's doing a lot of sparring. He's doing sparring with boxers. He's experimenting with stuff. He's doing crazy scenes in movies. He accidentally gets hit. Who knows if he had... A brain injury. Speaker 1 (23:19) Okay. Speaker 3 (23:20) Cerebral edema. Exactly. Dangerous swelling of the brain attributed by the coroner to a hypersensitivity reaction to ingredients in the prescription painkiller Equagesic. Equagesic. Equagesic, which he took for a headache. A plane of a headache given Equagesic, medication containing aspirin and Mepromate. Meprobamate. Meprobamate. Speaker 4 (23:45) Where's that at? aspirin Speaker 3 (23:47) and meprobamate. Speaker 4 (23:49) He laid Speaker 3 (23:50) down the rest, became unresponsive, could not be revived after taking to the hospital. Autopsy found severe brain swelling and no external injuries. The brain swelling itself is well established in the historical record, but the precise trigger remains disputed. The official conclusion focused on drug hypersensitivity reaction. Later, writers and researchers have proposed other possibilities, including heat-related illness and Hypo, well, they're testing us today with the word. Speaker 4 (24:17) Retrospective hypothesis? Speaker 3 (24:20) Hyponatremia. Hyponatremia. Dangerously low blood sodium associated with excess water intake. Huh. Speaker 4 (24:26) All right. Retrospective hypothesis. I'm sorry. It's the plural of hypothesis. Retrospective hypothesis. No replacement original official ruling. He was unbelievable, man. Speaker 3 (24:38) Well, he was the Tao of Jeet Kune Do is the original book of mixed martial arts. No question. I bought Speaker 4 (24:44) that book when it came out. Oh, Speaker 3 (24:45) yeah. Speaker 4 (24:45) I got a copy still. I love that book, right? That book's legit. It Speaker 3 (24:48) was Speaker 4 (24:48) soft. It was like a soft cover. You remember that? Yep. Speaker 3 (24:51) Soft cover. Big, thick-ass book. Yeah, big, thick, soft cover with all the illustrations Speaker 2 (24:54) inside. Yeah, man. And he took things from everything. He took things from, like, Speaker 3 (24:59) Western boxing and fainting and jabs. And he got from karate, different Japanese styles. He watched Ali. Oh, Speaker 4 (25:05) yeah. Ali's footwork. He did Speaker 3 (25:07) some of that in Speaker 4 (25:09) the movies, too. Yeah, Speaker 3 (25:10) absolutely. Bruce was a monster. But people today, they see that, you know, they see mixed martial arts. You see all these fighters on television. They see movies. It seems normal to them. They don't understand that back then this was unprecedented. No one had ever done that before. Super. Yeah. And to be that skillful and do it so he can move so fast that everybody's like, what the fuck? Lightning quick. Yeah. Lightning quick. Just changed it for the whole world. Like karate schools just opened up all over the world. Crazy. But what's crazy, at Speaker 4 (25:39) that time, it was blurred because, like, people didn't know the difference between karate and kung fu. It was very blurred. It was very blurred. Speaker 3 (25:46) Yeah. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. Yeah. You just got lucky wherever school you walked into. That's right. You know, you'd open the yellow pages under martial arts. That's right. I Speaker 4 (25:55) was up at the YMCA in Speaker 3 (25:56) Sado karate. Speaker 4 (25:57) I'm like, Sado. Okay, I'm doing Sado. Walking to the dojo. You Speaker 3 (26:01) know Speaker 4 (26:02) what I mean? Speaker 3 (26:02) A Speaker 4 (26:02) lot of Speaker 3 (26:03) those YMCA classes, yeah. They were good, though. Yeah. Two Speaker 4 (26:06) knuckles, baby. Yeah. First two knuckles. Yeah. Speaker 3 (26:10) It's a crazy time because it just got introduced into the world and it took off. I'm fascinated by things that didn't exist and then all of a sudden burst onto the scene. Innovation. Yeah. Speaker 4 (26:22) Well, that's Speaker 3 (26:22) why hip-hop to me is so fascinating especially early hip-hop because hip-hop as an art form before the 1980s was non-existent in pop culture and then all sudden it was the dominant force five or six years later like people have to understand what it was like like When I was a kid and when I was coming up, the first time I heard Sugar Hill Gang was I was in a lunchroom. I was in Jamaica Plain, Massachusetts. At the time, it was a bad neighborhood. Now it's been kind of gentrified. At the time, there was kids that were 17 years old and they were still in the eighth grade. It was crazy. Speaker 4 (26:55) Yeah. Oh, yeah. There's that. 17 years old in the eighth grade is some Speaker 3 (27:00) nasty work. Yeah, it was like that. No bullshit. There was kids that should have been graduating from high school and they hadn't even gotten out Speaker 4 (27:06) of Speaker 3 (27:06) middle school. Middle school, yeah. It was just a lot of, like, ne'er-do-wells and people that just came from bad homes and bad neighborhoods. But it was the first time I had ever heard that. I remember thinking, this is like a different kind of Speaker 4 (27:17) music. Like, this is... Yeah, because, you know, you live in a neighborhood and you feel invisible. Yes. You know, and I think a lot of people can relate to that now. You live in a neighborhood, you feel invisible. Your friends get killed, nobody cares. The news doesn't talk about, you know, they may talk about some major thing, but... When your friend down the block gets killed, nobody cares. You walk down, you got this diddy bop that you're walking with like this, and people think you're walking to be cool, but you're really walking because it's like being in the jungle, and you're like a lion, and you're walking around trying to stay low, and you're watching your environment in your back, right? I used to have a thing in high school, you do one, two, three behind you, one, two, three behind you, the whole time down the hallway. Wow. You know what I mean? So hip-hop was the first time that I heard young kids like me sound empowered. And, you know, instead of, you know, because all you saw at that time, if you saw a black kid on the news, all you saw was a guy in handcuffs being put into a police car. That was basically it. Speaker 3 (28:11) Yeah. That Speaker 4 (28:12) and Bruce Lee. Yeah. So it was like. Hip-hop is the first time I heard people sound powerful, sound empowered. You know, it wasn't like the Grey Poupon fancy, I have a lot of money thing that it is today. When we talked about the money, that was aspirational. That's what we wanted. Like, you're coming from nothing. Right? You're coming from the grime and the dirt, and you're, like, rapping about what it could be. So you are, you're extra macho and you're extra bravado and extra, because... You're an underdog. Right. You know, it became that to like, you know, now it's like, you know, you're on Mount Olympus spitting on, you know, the peasants. You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? Right. Back then it was aspirational. It was the Speaker 3 (28:59) opposite. Speaker 4 (29:00) It was the opposite. One Speaker 3 (29:01) of my favorite hip hop videos of all time is Biggie when he was 17 on the street corner. Oh, when he was rhyming? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's on the block. He's Speaker 4 (29:08) a Speaker 3 (29:08) nobody and he's the shit at the same time. Yeah. He's the shit at the same time. And everybody around him is going, oh. Yeah. He's hitting these yeah, and his flow was already spectacular right because Speaker 4 (29:19) because you're you're basically Speaker 4 (29:23) You're saying what every you're like, it's like a different version of Cyrano, but you're doing it for for people It's not about romance necessarily. It's not for this particular girl You're doing it you're speaking you become a spokesman for the emotions the angst the pain The Speaker 3 (29:39) desires Speaker 4 (29:39) the wishes of the people that are like you and I'm not talking about just ethnicity I'm talking about culturally people that are like you that come from the energy and the type of places that you come from So you speak for them? You know what I mean? So when I got the big gold chains on, the big gold chains aren't to say the— the big gold chains are to show people I have something at that time. It meant, yo, not only do I have something, but I'm tough enough to be able to wear this. See, jewelry back then was a message. You know, any neighborhood. It was, I can wear this in this neighborhood. Right. That's very different from it becoming like, you know. cigarette holders and I got the jury on and it's like a goddamn, like, everybody's Liberace. No disrespect. You know what I'm Speaker 3 (30:27) saying? Speaker 1 (30:27) You know what I mean? Speaker 4 (30:30) No disrespect. You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? Yeah, exactly. Not necessary. Speaker 3 (30:36) No, that's what's interesting is like that's the first music genre where like open displays of wealth became like standard. Speaker 4 (30:46) Right, but here's the thing. Here's the thing. Remember, It wasn't an open display of wealth because it wasn't at the wealth level. That wasn't even the mindset. It could be as simple as I have. 50 grand in my dresser drawer, I got a gold chain, I got a nice car, and I'm doing better now. But I couldn't eat six months ago. Right. And look what I did. That's very different from, you know, look at my portfolio. Right, right, right. And my open, ostentatious display of this incredible, you understand what Speaker 3 (31:19) I'm Speaker 4 (31:19) saying? On Speaker 3 (31:19) the Speaker 4 (31:19) dock of my yacht. Yeah, the mindset is different. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because remember, we were taking cues from hustlers too. Like, we got to be honest about that. Like, we were looking at... the different hustlers. We were looking at the Supreme Team and we were looking at, you know, AZ and Rich and Apple, the guys uptown. We were looking at different people and all of that was affecting us too. So it wasn't so much about like, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. To society it was more like I did this in spite of right? Like you got to think about it like Speaker 3 (31:50) if Speaker 4 (31:50) you're it's like Monopoly right like somebody I was talking to the other day like We play Monopoly and I start off and I got all the paper and you got hardly nothing and I get 60 to 70 percent of the property and then I say okay now Let's play if you can go around that board and come up you're going to fucking feel good about yourself. You might throw a chain on or something. You might smile a little bit during that game after a while. And so you've got to think about it from that mindset. Now we've lapped, people have lapped. you know, the game so many times that it's not perceived the same way. But at that time, it wasn't about showing off. Speaker 3 (32:29) The Speaker 4 (32:30) call was about, yo, I really did this. Speaker 3 (32:32) Like, Speaker 4 (32:33) I have something. Because having something is a major accomplishment. When you got nothing, I don't care if you're in a trailer park, you're in the inner city, you're in a hood, wherever you at, when you are able to accomplish something, that's a hell of a feeling. Yes. Right? And so it wasn't about, like, So the idea of financial, fiscal responsibility and wealth, nobody's thinking about that shit. I want to Benz. Speaker 1 (32:59) I Speaker 4 (33:00) want to Benz, bro. Yo, I just want to Benz. I remember sitting with Dick Counten and I'm like, yo. He's like, yeah, we're going to do it. Speaker 3 (33:06) I want to Speaker 4 (33:07) Benz. Speaker 3 (33:08) He's like, yeah, but Speaker 4 (33:09) we're Speaker 3 (33:09) going Speaker 4 (33:09) to take care of this. I want to Benz. You know? And it's like, so we, you know, like I never lost the. Yeah, you do stuff with money and all that, but I never lost the mindset of... Speaker 4 (33:23) You know, where you really from like people yo, it's easy to forget I mean look you don't you're like one of the most red people I know because I watch you know the stuff and everything you could you could be in a bubble and forget it if you didn't get in that gym and you didn't roll around on that mat and you didn't get reminders of you Matt you could forget in the life this world that we live in Yeah, it's easy to forget. So I kind of you know, I just come for them to me I keep that in mind you Speaker 3 (33:50) you said what? It's comforting to forget. It's easy to fall into a band of yes men and be insulated, especially in Hollywood. 100%. But then Speaker 4 (34:00) you're not relatable, and then you can't learn, and you can't handle it. Well, you also Speaker 3 (34:03) go crazy. Oh, Speaker 4 (34:05) without a doubt. That's the problem. It Speaker 3 (34:06) might be Speaker 4 (34:06) Howard Hughes. No disrespect. No disrespect. You know what I mean? You'd Speaker 3 (34:10) be Speaker 4 (34:10) in the room until the 70s. Yeah, yeah. With Speaker 3 (34:13) all the paper and tissue around you. Well, it's kind of Howard Stern now. He hides in the Hamptons now. That's rough. He didn't do his radio show from his studio for a long time. He did it all remotely. Speaker 4 (34:26) Yeah, you know. Speaker 3 (34:27) People start getting weird with germs. They start worrying about getting sick. Yeah, that's. It gets very strange. Start washing their hands all day long. Well, I mean, that's okay. All day long. I get a little hip of cleansing. Don't Speaker 4 (34:38) go Speaker 3 (34:38) OCD on Speaker 4 (34:39) me. Speaker 3 (34:39) I wash my hands. But all that, you Speaker 1 (34:41) know. Speaker 3 (34:41) I wash my hands, you know what I mean? But I think. With no disrespect to Howard, because I'm a giant fan of his, and I think he's the pioneer of all this stuff. Well, I mean, he's Speaker 4 (34:51) named after an African-American university, so that's the cool— No, I'm kidding. Go ahead, Speaker 3 (34:55) Joe. I don't kid you. That's Speaker 4 (34:59) part of his Speaker 3 (34:59) lore, Speaker 2 (35:00) is he grew up in an all-black neighborhood. Speaker 3 (35:02) It really is. But he got so famous. He got so famous. It's so big. It's so huge. No doubt. And Speaker 2 (35:09) so Speaker 3 (35:09) much money. And I think there's a real— potential to be isolated when that happens. Then people get mad Speaker 4 (35:15) at you. I do too. Yeah, I like how, I did a show quite a few times. You know, he was always cool to me. He really was. And he gave me love, like, in the early years when I first started. I gotta be honest. He embraced me. He gave me, you know, he kind of like let me come on a show and let me, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. That to me, you know, I'm not saying that, what you're saying is like, No, listen, I'm not disrespecting him. No, Speaker 3 (35:37) I Speaker 4 (35:37) don't think you are. Speaker 3 (35:37) I think he's Speaker 2 (35:38) a legend, and I think if it wasn't for him to be in a podcast. But you can become isolated. Speaker 3 (35:41) You can become isolated. And it's also very hard to even be hanging out with people when you're that famous. It just gets weird for some people. Unless you force yourself to just do uncomfortable things all the time. You know what? And in public. Well, Speaker 4 (35:57) success. Speaker 4 (36:00) Success likes you to be outside, right? It's kind of hard to find success when you're not networking. You could do certain things, but I heard a guy say the other day, you know, you put a painting on your garage wall, and even if the door's open, it's kind of hard to get people excited, you know what I mean, as opposed to putting it in the gallery. So you have to interact. But, you know, me, like, I'm an introvert. Even though I do all this stuff. Are Speaker 3 (36:25) you Speaker 4 (36:25) really? Yeah. You would think. But when I go home, I got to read. I got to relax. I got to recharge. Like, I can't. You know what I mean? I can't. I don't like being surrounded by a thousand people. But I have a different reason for it. Because I just learned that it brings problems. Because you can't manage everybody's behavior. Right. Right. And Speaker 3 (36:44) then Speaker 4 (36:44) when the problem happens, then it's LL. Right. Right. One of Speaker 3 (36:48) LL's friends. Yeah. Right. Speaker 4 (36:50) A part of LL's crew. You Speaker 3 (36:51) see? Yeah. So you got to, so Speaker 4 (36:53) it's kind of, yeah. Speaker 3 (36:56) Today in the news. Speaker 4 (36:58) You know what I'm saying? Speaker 3 (37:00) You know what I mean? Yeah, especially when you're on a cop show. Well, you know what? No, that's funny. Yeah, that's really funny. It becomes a real fucking problem. Speaker 4 (37:07) You know, I didn't even really think, yo, that's pretty funny, bro. You know? That's pretty funny. Speaker 3 (37:11) Bro, I think about it all the time with Ice-T. Because I was a giant Ice-T fan, still am, but giant Ice-T fan growing up. He had that song, Cop Killer. Remember? He had that song with Body Count. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. But a Speaker 4 (37:26) man that can cock himself is greater than a man who can cock a city, right? Right, Speaker 3 (37:30) there you go. But it's just